Fixture Destruction Update

[A little fellow]

Except..a lot of these fixtures that little fellow is speaking of had been there for several rl months, a few even rl years, without so much as a scratch.

Now they get bashed down on a daily basis for no other reason other than "Because I can and it isn't against the rules."

There is no roleplay nor interaction before or after the deed. Just the act of logging in and finding out some of your work and effort has been undone by some random,faceless and bored passerby.

Granted, and as I said before, I really like the way the new system works, since descriptions are saved and restored upon repair.

The issue seems to be that the looser rules around fixture destruction end up being more of a chore for the "victim" than any actual fun mechanic or rp.

Beat me to it, and agree. The system itself is good, so good it (in my opinion) has had a detrimental effect.

Also I'm not sure if it still takes 25 crafting points to repair something, but it absolutely should not be 25.

[A little fellow]

Walk from Gnoll caves to Minmir manor, the road it littered with fixture remains. Pretty sure every torch bracket has been pummeled.

Why would you even put random fixtures in hostile areas? Them getting destroyed sounds IC.

The majority of the fixtures I worry about are largely in non-hostile areas. Brogendenstein has multiple areas set aside for camps all over the mountain, these are areas which I believe encourage fixtures to be placed around the Dark Spires by Brogendenstien's players.

The 'random' fixtures in the places you saw were torches which lead players who dont know the mountains to the Tower guild hall further up. The messageboard was for patrol reports which was 1 map away from the safety of the Golden Halls. It's the second time it's been destroyed since the update, previously there were no problems with it's being attacked.

[A little fellow]

Walk from Gnoll caves to Minmir manor, the road it littered with fixture remains. Pretty sure every torch bracket has been pummeled.

Why would you even put random fixtures in hostile areas? Them getting destroyed sounds IC.

Seconded

IMO there is very many Fixtures out there that are not longer in use, and there is actualy no rights for these things, created by old characters nearly forgotten to be there. As it limits the new characters to build their own monuments. And temples, and whatever it is we build with all our fixtures.

When the RP is gone, so should the fixtures to leave space for the younger generation of Characters.

Not saying this sanctions destroying your stuff, but there has been a fixturecluttering on the servers. I presume it is still there.

I agree that many fixtures out there serve no purpose. I can only speak for myself and those that play with me when I say that we have put a lot of effort into the fixtures around the Dark Spires. I guarantee you, this same amount of effort wasn't given in their bashing.

[Cerk Evermoore]

I have never once fixture bashed it is not my style but I also turned down numerous base locations because the fixtures left behind made me assume it still featured an active faction

[CragOrion]

There is no roleplay nor interaction before or after the deed. Just the act of logging in and finding out some of your work and effort has been undone by some random,faceless and bored passerby.

As a general rule, just because you don't see the RP doesn't mean it didn't happen. But like the dm's said, if you suspect griefing, report it.

[Daedin]

I'd be tempted to agree with you, but there is a reason why things like exiles, for instance, require interactive roleplay between the two parties before they happen.
The character being exiled doesn't need to be there for it to happen,either, but now roleplay beforehand is mandatory (unless something changed?)

The way I see it, this is the sort of aproach that should be taken when it comes to fixture destruction and stealing. Otherwise, it can barely be classified as roleplay. It's just one click in the void.

But..that's all personal opinion, I guess. The kind of opinion based on the good ol' principle of: "I can. But should I?"

[Devil Dog]

I don't go around bashing fixtures but there are times I want to because, well, some things make no sense to me where some are placed. But then I still leave them be since maybe it made sense to who ever placed them there.

So on that note, how do you rp it if something like a camp goes up over night. Noone including myself had ever seen anyone belong to said camp or anyone ever at the camp. Rather large camp as well and a nice one at that. Though the location, IMO, made no sense, right smack in hostile territory. So what if this group just stops playing, a group you never saw or ever heard anything about in rp other than seeing the camp? You cant roll play it, cuz they are gone. But then, are you sure their gone? lol.
ps- I have yet to bash anyones fixture but I have always felt like if I do, I would leave some kind of hint as to who'd done it, like one of the fixtures with a new or added description or something with the clue.

[Durvayas]

My experience with the system so far has been a drastic increase in finding fixtures bashed, but no increase in roleplay for it aside from that which is natural to building fixtures or responding to being griefed. That is to say, "help me replace this" RP.

I have yet to hear of any RP from someone finding out who bashed the fixtures, but ive heard penty of frustration from them being bashed far more regularly and being regularly in need of repair or replacement. The system has become a chore and vessel for allowed griefing. I call it that because it is not interactive. You log in and things are broken. No notes, no messages, just anonymous destruction, but far more regular than before.

[Sab1]

Walk from Gnoll caves to Minmir manor, the road it littered with fixture remains. Pretty sure every torch bracket has been pummeled.

Why would you even put random fixtures in hostile areas? Them getting destroyed sounds IC.

I didn't put the fixtures there. These fixtures have been there since around the Guld/Grove war days. I was just pointing out after I walked past there the other day every torch stand out there is now a pile of rubble.

[CragOrion]

Fixture bashing doesn't require interactive roleplay, just roleplay. There's too many ways metagaming and ooc bad feelings can come into play if you force someone to be interactive. Also, you don't always know who fixtures belonged to or were made by. It's just not feasable to enforce. This is especially true with fixtures that are not located inside a locked quarter, or even inside a settlement area.

I don't typically bash fixtures on purpose unless there is some sort of IC reason to do it. Bashing fixtures, even those in the hundreds of random senseless fixture camps throughout the module is still a break in character, which is why the DM's don't want us doing it. Thus I leave fixture policing to them. What I WILL do is if there's a particular type of fixture my character needs or wants IG, and he/she finds one out in the wilderness, and there has been no sign of it's owner and that the camp gets any kind of civilized activity, I will swipe it. But never more than one a day from a particular geographic area. That is well within the established rules, and completely in character.

So to reiterate....these things are best chalked up to the dangers of the wild, because it was silly to put them there in the first place when you couldn't be there to check on them regularly and still expect them to remain unharmed. But if you think there is actual griefing going on, report it to a DM. Threads like this are just not helpful unless what you wanted WAS toxic pity-partying and a bunch of people reminding you of the rules that are already in place to govern it.

[A little fellow]

Fixture bashing doesn't require interactive roleplay, just roleplay. There's too many ways metagaming and ooc bad feelings can come into play if you force someone to be interactive. Also, you don't always know who fixtures belonged to or were made by. It's just not feasable to enforce. This is especially true with fixtures that are not located inside a locked quarter, or even inside a settlement area.

I don't typically bash fixtures on purpose unless there is some sort of IC reason to do it. Bashing fixtures, even those in the hundreds of random senseless fixture camps throughout the module is still a break in character, which is why the DM's don't want us doing it. Thus I leave fixture policing to them. What I WILL do is if there's a particular type of fixture my character needs or wants IG, and he/she finds one out in the wilderness, and there has been no sign of it's owner and that the camp gets any kind of civilized activity, I will swipe it. But never more than one a day from a particular geographic area. That is well within the established rules, and completely in character.

So to reiterate....these things are best chalked up to the dangers of the wild, because it was silly to put them there in the first place when you couldn't be there to check on them regularly and still expect them to remain unharmed. But if you think there is actual griefing going on, report it to a DM. Threads like this are just not helpful unless what you wanted WAS toxic pity-partying and a bunch of people reminding you of the rules that are already in place to govern it.

Pity partying? No. The reason for this thread (and this forum) was to put forward my opinion that the fixture updates have created more griefing, whilst only making it slightly easier (but no less annoying) to replace what has been griefed.

After all, you wrote this about the Death Penalty changes, I dont believe you're 'pity-partying' in this case, so perhaps respect me having the opportunity to voice my concerns.

Devs...you've lost your perspective. You need to look at what you're really trying to accomplish here and ask yourself is this what Arelith is really supposed to be about. Since Mithreas stepped down, I've really felt like the the updates have been struck by schizophrenia.

If you do not think this thread is helpful, then I respect that opinion, but I do hope it has been helpful to put across the points that quite a few people feel.

[CragOrion]

There is a difference between trying give staff a wakeup call over something that has become a very large and public issue, and simply needing to report griefing to the DMs.

[gilescorey]

I think the whole point he's trying to make is that, while what's happening is pretty much griefing in the most literal sense, it's not breaking any of the new fixture rules.

What's there to report? It's a Problem, yes, and he's trying to shed light on the issue - "hey, maybe these rules ought be looked at" - in a public forum so others might offer their opinion or their viewpoint. Even if their's is for the OP to stop "pity partying." (seriously, what?)

[Sab1]

Fixture bashing doesn't require interactive roleplay, just roleplay. There's too many ways metagaming and ooc bad feelings can come into play if you force someone to be interactive. Also, you don't always know who fixtures belonged to or were made by. It's just not feasable to enforce. This is especially true with fixtures that are not located inside a locked quarter, or even inside a settlement area.

I don't typically bash fixtures on purpose unless there is some sort of IC reason to do it. Bashing fixtures, even those in the hundreds of random senseless fixture camps throughout the module is still a break in character, which is why the DM's don't want us doing it. Thus I leave fixture policing to them. What I WILL do is if there's a particular type of fixture my character needs or wants IG, and he/she finds one out in the wilderness, and there has been no sign of it's owner and that the camp gets any kind of civilized activity, I will swipe it. But never more than one a day from a particular geographic area. That is well within the established rules, and completely in character.

So to reiterate....these things are best chalked up to the dangers of the wild, because it was silly to put them there in the first place when you couldn't be there to check on them regularly and still expect them to remain unharmed. But if you think there is actual griefing going on, report it to a DM. Threads like this are just not helpful unless what you wanted WAS toxic pity-partying and a bunch of people reminding you of the rules that are already in place to govern it.

I think it's more to point out issues like the torch stands. They have been there over a RL year, never got hit by lightning, never been bashed. Now suddenly every one is rubble. I didn't make them, and never paid them much notice until there were debris everywhere. Just pointing it out since some seem to think weather is the main cause or DM house cleaning. I was simply giving an example of there are some people more willing to whack a fixture now.

I normally don't bash unless it's something offensive to my character. if my paladin came across a bloody torture rack, she would probably destroy the vile thing for instance. Or remove an item from a 35 item camp if something needed to go in area.

[chris a gogo]

The main reason nothing is removed was you could only take a single piece at a time,but someone could place as many pieces as they liked.

Simple example i was playing a druid and someone turned a druid shrine into a daycare center over night.
So i removed all the fixtures and dumped them in another location outside the shrine.
This was a rule break because the rules state you can only remove one piece so i said sorry and the fixtures were restored,later i bumped into one of the PC's in the shrine rping feeding a baby on there own,so i rped with them about how wrong it was to treat the shrine this way.
Unfortunately i felt that conflict at this point was kind of pointless as it would of been lame taking a single piece each day to just have it replaced the next.
With this change i would of destroyed all the fixtures and allowed the role play to progress with them either hunting my druid and conflict ensuing or them realizing the error of there ways icly.

So i honestly think the change is good,there is more destroyed fixtures but you can't walk through a cave in the UD without someone having already turned it into a shrine or lair,at least now you can contest for an area,if you break something and it gets repaired then you can assume that players are still using it and seek them out.

S

[A little fellow]

There is a difference between trying give staff a wakeup call over something that has become a very large and public issue, and simply needing to report griefing to the DMs.

We have reported to DMs, just as we would have if we believed there was a specific effort to grief our fixtures before the change. But we never really needed to, because they weren't getting griefed.

And it's probably not important to you, but is it me and others.

[A little fellow]

Recently came across 5 more destroyed fixtures. That's 125 crafting points in total. The RP was riveting though.

At the very least, the very least, can the crafting points you have to pay for the repairs not be so ridiculously high?


EDIT!!!

A quick update from one of my posts on 23 Apr 2017 13:21. For anyone wondering how this poor fixture is getting along after it was unceremoniously ganked.



I'm very pleased to announce that the fixture is now repaired to the sum of 25 crafting points. Unfortunately there was a reset in between it's destruction and repair so it's description is gone, making me wonder why I didn't just make a new one for about 5 crafting points and arguably less hassle .. but still ..

[Hawker]

Lets take the above example from ingame. I am not saying this particular action was a grief, but it makes a good example of effort of destruction vs effort of repair. Brog has border markers spread around the edge of their claimed territory. Each marker consists of a runic pillar, two flags and two fire bowls. A little fellow's screenshot shows one marker that was recently destroyed by what according to the -investigate was a single individual using elemental damage. Again, I am not calling this single action a grief, but lets look a little deeper at the efforts involved.

This means that with a single spell or ability, five fixtures across three types of crafting have been destroyed. Every fixture repair requires 25 points, with an average of 2.5 rolls of 1 per 50 crafting points spend you can /almost/ repair two fixtures per ig day. Assuming you have points in the right skills and the fixtures do not require crafting parts (some of them do) it will take you at least 3 ingame days (nearly 3 hours of waiting for those points to come back). If instead you wanted to get it all fixed in a single ingame day, it will require three people to undo the actions of one in this instance.

That only explains the repair effort and discounts the initial effort of creation which is arguably even larger when there are thought out descriptions involved. I am certainly not suggesting we should forbid destruction or that everything we make has an unquestionable right to exist, but I put the question forward, why would any of us continue to bother with acts of creation when the deck is stacked so heavily on the side of destruction?

[DarkDreamer]

Just to correct one thing on previous post, for a single person, it would take approx 7 1/2 hours to do the 5 items based on the possible failure rate. Since its 2 1/2 hours per day.

[Tranquility]

Having read everything over, I believe the new system can work nicely.

I'm all for making repairs easier, so it doesn't hurt the time people can play as much, and makes it feel less, well annoying.

I'd love for it to be easier finding out who did the deed though! Higher risk please.

Cookie for epic diviners (and sweet Gods they need one). Allow them to be able to tell exactly who broke this fixture and when, I'd love this for diviners, would give them some flavor. (" Oh someone dropped some hair here, I'll find out who this belongs too!)". Now that would make rp. go find your epic diviner, pay them to tell you who destroyed the fixture. Then go visit the assasins guild, if that's your thing (really fun if the diviner charges the culprit to give the offended party a fake name.). Or take it all personal on your character and get up in their business ig. The options for getting roleplay out of it, besides some useless clues and repair rp would be much increased I feel.

[If Valor Were Inches]

Having read everything over, I believe the new system can work nicely.

I'm all for making repairs easier, so it doesn't hurt the time people can play as much, and makes it feel less, well annoying.

I'd love for it to be easier finding out who did the deed though! Higher risk please.

Cookie for epic diviners (and sweet Gods they need one). Allow them to be able to tell exactly who broke this fixture and when, I'd love this for diviners, would give them some flavor. (" Oh someone dropped some hair here, I'll find out who this belongs too!)". Now that would make rp. go find your epic diviner, pay them to tell you who destroyed the fixture. Then go visit the assasins guild, if that's your thing (really fun if the diviner charges the culprit to give the offended party a fake name.). Or take it all personal on your character and get up in their business ig. The options for getting roleplay out of it, besides some useless clues and repair rp would be much increased I feel.

I'm all for making it easier, but not so easy you can find out with no detective work. Maybe give them all the details possible without lore/search whatever else is used.

And more details, as I listed before:
Exact Race, Sex, Weapon Damage/Essence Damage, etc.

[Hunter548]

Yeah, it'd be nice if you didn't need a full investment in both lore and search to find out who bashes your fixtures, since that spread's covered by wizards and.. what, rogues, rangers? Kind of a narrow section of the playerbase.

[Lorkas]

Since It seems like investment in the crafting discipline could be just as important or even more important than lore and search, since it adds to the rolls now.

[Hawker]

Just to correct one thing on previous post, for a single person, it would take approx 7 1/2 hours to do the 5 items based on the possible failure rate. Since its 2 1/2 hours per day.

Sorry, I actually meant to say around 5 hours waiting for points as I was calculating based on having 50 points available when you start.

*Edit*
This is getting ridiculous. We have not even finished repairing everything broken and are finding more.
In this case the single message board in a non combat area. I am sure the 'It looks like the damage done was Slashing' will go a long way to generating investigation RP. /s

[caldura firebourne]

Brog does have alot of fixtures spread out over a massive area, maybe consider less fixtures into a more manageable territory?