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rearranging the char creation screens in arelith entry
Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:36 pm
by Ebonstar
I thought of this in the other thread but it needs its own since its off topic in the weapon thread.
humans are coded for a free feat and get the most gifts. that fine but make it so you have to be a normal human on the surface to get that.
make the background option be listed first so if outcast is chosen, the gifts page only allows a minor gift just like drow. This will put a stop to humans running rampant in the underdark and make it so the monster races are dominant again.
the UD isnt supposed to be human playground, its supposed to be dark and scary, and humans born there shouldnt have the same benefits as those born above
Re: rearranging the char creation screens in arelith entry
Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:41 pm
by Cortex
So, what stops someone from creating a surfacer with all gifts and then become an outcast?
Also, still being upset over outcasts in 2018.
Re: rearranging the char creation screens in arelith entry
Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:45 pm
by JediMindTrix
Re: rearranging the char creation screens in arelith entry
Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:47 pm
by Ebonstar
Cortex wrote: ↑Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:41 pm
So, what stops someone from creating a surfacer with all gifts and then become an outcast?
Also, still being upset over outcasts in 2018.
quite simple, its changed so they cannot become outcasts. we have scripting geniuses that can alter a line of code while sleeping
and its not being upset, its trying to return to lore, of which right now there are several things allowed mechanically that break immersion and lore
Re: rearranging the char creation screens in arelith entry
Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:49 pm
by Cortex
That sounds very diselegant and awkward. "Nay, you may be an evil piece of crap but you're too gifted to be one of us..."
Re: rearranging the char creation screens in arelith entry
Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:54 pm
by Ebonstar
Cortex wrote: ↑Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:49 pm
That sounds very diselegant and awkward. "Nay, you may be an evil piece of crap but you're too gifted to be one of us..."
not at all and humans who want to be evil have other places than the UD to be such.
why should humans have all the pluses yet not one minus
or better yet make outcasts be an award or need a DM token
Re: rearranging the char creation screens in arelith entry
Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:57 pm
by Cortex
Doesn't address my point in the sense it'd be an unclear, nonsensical ugly fix.
Re: rearranging the char creation screens in arelith entry
Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:00 pm
by Ebonstar
Cortex wrote: ↑Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:57 pm
Doesn't address my point in the sense it'd be an unclear, nonsensical ugly fix.
i see it being very clear that to be an outcast you have to take the good with the bad
Re: rearranging the char creation screens in arelith entry
Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:01 pm
by Nitro
Ebonstar wrote: ↑Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:47 pm
Cortex wrote: ↑Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:41 pm
So, what stops someone from creating a surfacer with all gifts and then become an outcast?
Also, still being upset over outcasts in 2018.
quite simple, its changed so they cannot become outcasts. we have scripting geniuses that can alter a line of code while sleeping
and its not being upset, its trying to return to lore, of which right now there are several things allowed mechanically that break immersion and lore
What exactly are the things that break immersion and lore? Humans being very present in a skullport-esque city? (Which Andunor has been stated to be multiple times by the devs) or is it something else? Please do illuminate us.
Re: rearranging the char creation screens in arelith entry
Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:11 pm
by Hunter548
There are free, unenslaved humans in Menzobarrenzan of all places.
Claiming that humans in the Underdark is lore-breaking is simple ignorance, whether willfully or not, likely based on Arelith's particularly weird historical take on the Underdark.
Goblins and kobolds are universally/near universally a slave (or food) race in the Underdark too, yet I've never seen a primarily-drow player suggest that unenslaved goblins and kobolds be reward-locked.
Re: rearranging the char creation screens in arelith entry
Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:16 pm
by Ebonstar
being present is one thing, by mere definition is you might see one, not you find them in every corner every hour
even in skullport humans were a rarity save when the ships came in
Andunor has a human nearly every 20 meters sometimes more.
Skullport also has the natural fear of god instilled in the humans who do roam there, because the monsters are seen as monsters
Andunor doesnt have this, outcasts see mechanics and if you were to simply watch, you would see what im talking about.
( matter of fact i had one player playing an outcast send my toon a tell saying you cannot make me do anything i dont want to )
Skullport doesnt have humans running about threatening monsters when they are in groups unless they have a deathwish
Andunor has many humans who do such
all these break immersion and lore and the tells make it worse because then its an obvious i can do whatever i want no matter where i am
the only humans in Menzo are slaves
and goblins and kobolds dont walk about with chips on their shoulders
Re: rearranging the char creation screens in arelith entry
Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:19 pm
by Nitro
Ebonstar wrote: ↑Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:16 pm
the only humans in Menzo are slaves
Going to touch on this because it's the one I know for sure. That's just flat out wrong. The lower parts of the city are teeming with free (if impoverished) humans, and it's not uncommon to find humans in the merchant district (provided they have ample protection of course) (Refer to the first books in the war of the spider queen series for verification).
And I'd be quite curious where you got the lore for all your other statements from.
Re: rearranging the char creation screens in arelith entry
Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:24 pm
by Hexgoblin
Mechanically enforcing drow prominence, or even ethnic or cultural dominance in any particular direction is risky business. It enables bad players. It gives said bad players an escalator ride to the peak of a hierarchy, by no merit other than the click of a button at character creation.
Humans being prominent in the Underdark is in no way a breach of Underdark lore. Especially not in a setting inspired by Skullport, as opposed a "traditional" drow settlement. Andunor is ran by two Houses(Freth and Claddath) steeped in what to a traditional Lolthite would be deep heresy. Both of them were originally exiled from, and actively at war with Udos Dro'Xun. Someone could call themselves First Matron in Andunor, be a devout Lolthite, but they'd still exist under the heel of two heretic houses who could wipe them out at their leisure.
The way I see it, Andunor is instead ran by commerce, as opposed to innate entitlement. Whoever makes the most coin, circulates the most coin, and employs the most people through doing so -- is the head honcho. Atleast to whatever degree the setting permits one to be. Sometimes that's a drow. Sometimes it's a human. Sometimes an orog. It tends to fluctuate with player initiative. That's GOOD. It's dynamic.
I played the Archmage of Udos Dro'Xun for roughly a real life year. It was a melting pot of garbage where the pursuit of quality roleplay constantly took a backseat to that of tradition. Udos was garbage. Chances are that it was destroyed and buried by virtue of being garbage.
Re: rearranging the char creation screens in arelith entry
Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:30 pm
by Kuma
even in skullport humans were a rarity save when the ships came in
I'm honestly not sure where you're getting that from, tbh. If anything there's less humans and actually more of every other race. Some of the more prominent NPCs in Skullport are things like dwarves.
Skullport also has the natural fear of god instilled in the humans who do roam there, because the monsters are seen as monsters
Andunor doesnt have this, outcasts see mechanics and if you were to simply watch, you would see what im talking about.
( matter of fact i had one player playing an outcast send my toon a tell saying you cannot make me do anything i dont want to )
Skullport doesnt have humans running about threatening monsters when they are in groups unless they have a deathwish
Actually Skullport has The Skulls to prevent this, and they don't discriminate against drow, humans, or anyone. Andunor however is presented as-is, and attracting the ire of the Founding Houses or the Hubmaster is a lot harder. It's simply our setting. Andunor is not a carbon copy of Skullport, merely informed and inspired.
the only humans in Menzo are slaves
Wrong.
and goblins and kobolds dont walk about with chips on their shoulders
... what, on Arelith? This is patently false.
To reiterate, Andunor is the setting within which we play in the Arelith Underdark. The setting indicates that humans are not a minor, slave, or lesser race by comparison to the others that dwell there. Play accordingly.
Re: rearranging the char creation screens in arelith entry
Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:34 pm
by Hunter548
Ebonstar wrote: ↑Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:16 pm
Andunor doesnt have this, outcasts see mechanics and if you were to simply watch, you would see what im talking about.
( matter of fact i had one player playing an outcast send my toon a tell saying you cannot make me do anything i dont want to )
Wow, nice way to generalize a large section of the playerbase as powergamers baselessly.
Skullport doesnt have humans running about threatening monsters when they are in groups unless they have a deathwish
Andunor has many humans who do such
Why does your drow care if some humans knifed a gnoll? That gnoll was obviously weak, if it died to a bunch of humans. Ditto for any drow those humans kill; Obviously, Lolth doesn't favor them if they died.
the only humans in Menzo are slaves
and goblins and kobolds dont walk about with chips on their shoulders
Yeah, the funny thing here? 99% of the outcasts I've personally roleplayed with hate drow/kobolds/goblins/whatever
because those races keep trying to murder them, oftentimes for the pure whim of it. We can quibble about whether or not that's a realistic way for drow/whatever to behave, but I struggle to see the logic in thinking that's an unreasonable bit of roleplay for the human(s) to respond that way.
Re: rearranging the char creation screens in arelith entry
Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:35 pm
by DM Sollers
Andunor is not Skullport. Andunor is not Menzoberranzan. Andunor is not any other place in the Underdark.
Andunor is Andunor. Andunor has a bad case of the humans. This is part of Andunor's, and Arelith's, lore.
EDIT: I forgot my obligatory "if it's bending or breaking the rules, report it" spiel. Insert here.
Re: rearranging the char creation screens in arelith entry
Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:15 pm
by JCee94
Instead of complaining about outcasts we could try to foster rp that gets people excited to play monsters.
There's generally an influx of players around factions and races that are having fun enticing RP.
Try to have so many fun things going on with [insert your race/faction here] that people want to join you.
The world won't change because you don't like it, but it might if you do something about it.
Re: rearranging the char creation screens in arelith entry
Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 11:38 pm
by Duchess_Says
I have yet to play a human character (at least, past the starting levels) but I certainly see the appeal of outcasts. You can go almost anywhere on the surface or below and if your schemes don't work out in one place you have plenty of other options. You can start in Cordor and pretty easily transition to Outcast as well if you like, or go from being an outcast to a pirate or whatever. There's endless possibilities for fresh starts and changing course in different areas and with different crowds if one doesn't work out or the character evolves.
I tried playing a Duergar recently and was barely tolerated in Anundor (without doing anything to deserve it, I mean she was treated by others like she didn't even belong there from the get go.) I couldn't imagine sticking with that to epic levels. If I was someone who really wanted to struggle against adversity then sure it would be a fun challenge but I'm not at a place where I can do that because of real life time constraints and stress..
So yes, I can see why there are so many humans, and why there should be more attractions and options for monsters and non-human underdarkers.
Re: rearranging the char creation screens in arelith entry
Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 12:06 am
by thingsicantdo
i know this isn't the Q&A forum, but why are outcasts allowed to roam freely in surface cities? i thought the whole point of them was that they were banished to the underdark, or were too monsterous to be in human society. otherwise, they wouldn't be outcasts. they'd be buttheads who live in the underdark.
Re: rearranging the char creation screens in arelith entry
Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 12:11 am
by Blood on my Lips
thingsicantdo wrote: ↑Thu Jun 21, 2018 12:06 am
i know this isn't the Q&A forum, but why are outcasts allowed to roam freely in surface cities? i thought the whole point of them was that they were banished to the underdark, or were too monsterous to be in human society. otherwise, they wouldn't be outcasts. they'd be buttheads who live in the underdark.
Believe me, if you are known outcast from the UD, the surfacers chase you around screaming "Underdarker!" and trying to kill you.
But you are usually only known as a someone from the UD because you've encountered someone who was a former slave or is a scrier. An outcast that is yet to have been exposed does manage to roam freely aside from a few mechanical inconveniences.
Re: rearranging the char creation screens in arelith entry
Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 2:05 am
by Miskol
Duchess_Says wrote: ↑Wed Jun 20, 2018 11:38 pm
I have yet to play a human character (at least, past the starting levels) but I certainly see the appeal of outcasts. You can go almost anywhere on the surface or below and if your schemes don't work out in one place you have plenty of other options. You can start in Cordor and pretty easily transition to Outcast as well if you like, or go from being an outcast to a pirate or whatever. There's endless possibilities for fresh starts and changing course in different areas and with different crowds if one doesn't work out or the character evolves.
I tried playing a Duergar recently and was barely tolerated in Anundor (without doing anything to deserve it, I mean she was treated by others like she didn't even belong there from the get go.) I couldn't imagine sticking with that to epic levels. If I was someone who really wanted to struggle against adversity then sure it would be a fun challenge but I'm not at a place where I can do that because of real life time constraints and stress..
So yes, I can see why there are so many humans, and why there should be more attractions and options for monsters and non-human underdarkers.
There are downsides to playing an underdarker on the surface, there are content and modes of travel that you're locked out form entirely. It may not be overly punishing, but it isn't a free ride either.
Re: rearranging the char creation screens in arelith entry
Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 3:53 am
by Duchess_Says
There are downsides to playing an underdarker on the surface, there are content and modes of travel that you're locked out form entirely. It may not be overly punishing, but it isn't a free ride either.
I realize there are some minor limitations, but compare an outcast human's (maybe half-orc too) options to a non-human underdarker's and from my viewpoint they have a massive advantage and a world of possibilities. I'll leave drow out of the equation, they are their own thing, but the shall we say lesser underdarkers have very narrow options comparatively. Maybe they are just meant to be more disposable, like make their power play in Anundor and die when it's over.
I'm not arguing for shutting human outcasts out of anything but I see the appeal and will probably partake myself. I do wish there were more possibilities for non-humans below though.
Re: rearranging the char creation screens in arelith entry
Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:38 am
by Blood on my Lips
Duchess_Says wrote: ↑Thu Jun 21, 2018 3:53 am
I'm not arguing for shutting human outcasts out of anything but I see the appeal and will probably partake myself. I do wish there were more possibilities for non-humans below though.
The possibilities are there. People are not choosing to play the non-human races.
Re: rearranging the char creation screens in arelith entry
Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 7:19 am
by Rwby
Huh.
This thread starts with a suggestion.
It's in the feedback forum.
But it reads like it should be in the Slanty Shanty...
Weird.
Re: rearranging the char creation screens in arelith entry
Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 7:34 am
by Baron Saturday
Rwby wrote: ↑Thu Jun 21, 2018 7:19 am
Huh.
This thread starts with a suggestion.
It's in the feedback forum.
But it reads like it should be in the Slanty Shanty...
Weird.
You say that like it's somehow surprising!
As for this topic... yeah, there's not much to add to it. This argument has been hashed and rehashed a dozen times over the years. We're down to the moldy leftovers at this point.
Humans are the most popular race to play, not just because they're mechanically powerful and flexible but because, RP-wise, they're very accessible. Therefore, they're going to have a major presence in any settlement where they are permitted to be.
