A Dragon's sight should be enhanced.

[Kaymon24]

Hello,

I post this on the feedback forum in regards to the Dragon shape feat for our fellow druids. How come dragon shape druids don't have true sight? It makes no sense to have the dragon shape feat not give true sight to dragons and shape change spell still allow true seeing to dragons.

Now I understand the reasoning may be it makes them too Overpowering... but they are already nerfed! Loosing sneak attack immunity and now have no DR and less AC along with not having monk's APR when having monk levels is quite a hard punch to dragon shapes as it is.

And on a role playing stand point, dragons are known to have true sight. They have quite powerful eyesight, hearing, and smell Even if our arelith team feels a dragon should not have true seeing, any dragon should at least have A LOT of spot/listen. Perhaps not have true seeing to give our rouges some chance to get away from a dragon from a distance but up close, a dragon could smell you, hear you even. I find it sad that my Shadow dancer can easily kill a dragon shape because of his ability to hide in plain sight and put a dragon's "enhanced senses" to complete shame and equal to any other race that cannot spot/listen.

Please, I ask the arelith team give dragon's back what they are known for. Give our role playing dragons true sight or at least a ability to see our sneakers so they can actually role play what they appear to be: A Dragon.

[Mr_Rieper]

The fewer things that have true sight, the better.

If you want True Sight, buff yourself with it somehow. Permanent true sight is obnoxious, having characters go "hold on, let me just change into my dragon form so I can check the room is clear" every time people wanted to have a meeting would be even more so.

Dragon shape doesn't make you an actual dragon. It makes you resemble one. Not a justification for permanent true sight, not on any level.

[Tarkus the dog]

Actually? I agree with you, 100%. Roleplay reasons and all of that, I dig your suggestion. Also give back the 5% dragons true seeing too (outside of their shape), and the free armor skin feat, and ability to take gifts on top of +6 to abilities.

[Harkath]

An epic druid that thinks they'll need to deal with sneaks and has neither combined their massive wis score with detection skills nor prepared a true sight or two deserves whatever they get. Also, what was said above: The less TS, the better. Bioware TS is absurdly broken and certainly not designed for a multiplayer environment.

[Dalek Caan]

We're still in a place where a dragonshaper can, at the very least, out-tank an actual dragon. I think not having TS to them is fair.

[Richørd]

Agreed, keep TS away from anything that is not an actual dragon.

[Shadowy Reality]

What are we talking about?

If anything should have TS is the Dragonshape. Everyone used to complain about TS, it was nerfed to oblivion, only to be replaced by Polymorph wands, because the Umberhulk still has it.

Dragonshape has 3 uses per day and due to its size and nature is silly to use unless needed, no one is going to have permanent TS due to it. I can, however, have TS at will with a single polymorph wand, which you only need 5 UMD ranks for, yet absolutely no one voiced complaints against that.

[Harkath]

Umberhulk should lose TS too.

[CosmicOrderV]

The fewer things that have true sight, the better.

If you want True Sight, buff yourself with it somehow. Permanent true sight is obnoxious, having characters go "hold on, let me just change into my dragon form so I can check the room is clear" every time people wanted to have a meeting would be even more so.

Dragon shape doesn't make you an actual dragon. It makes you resemble one. Not a justification for permanent true sight, not on any level.

Definitely sounds like Umberhulk polymorph. I would say, at least the dragon shape requires a lot more investment than umberhulk polymorph does. Between the two, I'd prefer to see dragon shape with TS rather than Umberhulks. That said, I would think dragon shape could at least do with some sort of big bonus to Spot/Search/Listen (+10? +15?).

[DM Eyeball]

The difference is that an umberhulk won't wreak havoc, even when buffed.

[CosmicOrderV]

Difference noted, that wasn't the point of the comment. It's oft used as a gimmicky room clear, just to make sure one isn't being followed / spied on. Combat is another matter entirely, which already largely saw the Dragon Shape brought in-line. I definitely don't think that part was a bad idea. It was needed, and even if it's still a poor match up against roguey types, it's nice that a combat victory is loosely in the cards now for them, when confronted with a Dragon Shaper.

[Iceborn]

The less things with true seeing, the better.
Epic druids shapeshifting are not actual dragons, you can easily attribute the lack of true sight to the limitation of their magic.
And druids being mostly a wis-based class, I don't see why they can't go the extra mile and invest into Spot/Listen, as everybody else.

If you want dragonshapers to be buffed, that's an entirely acceptable thread on its own, but giving them back true seeing is not the way to go, in my opinion.

[Shadowy Reality]

The less things with true seeing, the better.
Epic druids shapeshifting are not actual dragons, you can easily attribute the lack of true sight to the limitation of their magic.
And druids being mostly a wis-based class, I don't see why they can't go the extra mile and invest into Spot/Listen, as everybody else.

If you want dragonshapers to be buffed, that's an entirely acceptable thread on its own, but giving them back true seeing is not the way to go, in my opinion.

Because druids have neither Listen or Spot as class skills nor do they have skill points to spare and even with all their Wisdom they will never detect anyone.

I am still amazed how most people have not yet realized how stacked the odds are in favour of sneaks right now.

Edit: I am going to expand a bit.

One of the biggest complaints over the years is that True Seeing should not detect stealthed creatures as per pnp. This is correct, it is not how it functions in pnp. What people never argued is that Stealth needs Concealmente or Cover in pnp. You cannot stealth right behind someone, it is impossible as per pnp. It is, however, possible in NWN. You can just stand between two individuals as they speak and unless they have enough ranks, they will never know.

All TS ever did was catch sneaks that were not sneaking properly, if you moved from cover to cover and made sure to spy on people from behind walls, you were pretty much safe from True Seeing. If on the other hand you were just standing around in plain open, well, tough luck.

[Iceborn]

The less things with true seeing, the better.
Epic druids shapeshifting are not actual dragons, you can easily attribute the lack of true sight to the limitation of their magic.
And druids being mostly a wis-based class, I don't see why they can't go the extra mile and invest into Spot/Listen, as everybody else.

If you want dragonshapers to be buffed, that's an entirely acceptable thread on its own, but giving them back true seeing is not the way to go, in my opinion.

Because druids have neither Listen or Spot as class skills nor do they have skill points to spare and even with all their Wisdom they will never detect anyone.

I am still amazed how most people have not yet realized how stacked the odds are in favour of sneaks right now.

While I am not opposed to actually adding either skill to druid, since it seems thematically fitting for me...
...Have you considered multiclassing? It's this new and advanced feature that allows you to take abilities from other classes that are not in your class kit. It makes you slightly weaker, but more versatile, and a lot of people find it a good choice to balance their characters.

Take with a grain of salt!

[Jagel]

Druids have a really enormous powerspike at lvl 28.

I still think some of the power of the monoliths should be transferred to DS, but that’s another topic.

I’d settle for a nice big spot/listen bonus in DS.

[Aftond]

You either got monolithic at 28 and have a super strong form(that is immune to sneaks). Or just multiclass to make use of your high wis, get some spot/listen and go dragonshape. Dragonshape is no longer the hard investment it used to be, and giving it TS would make it too strong.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

A druid who enters dragon shape is giving up damage/control output potential for the ability to perform in melee (not as well as they would if they were casting spells with epic foci). This is fact. If you were talking about vanilla dragonshape and vanilla monk pairing bonuses, I'd say you might have an argument that True Seeing is too much. Personally, if I'm a sneak, and someone with a high enough wisdom score turns into a dragon to spot me, I'm just grateful they didn't cast True Seeing and then target my fortitude or will save.

Yes- turning into a dragon *JUST* to check for someone in stealth may come off as a little trite, depending on how important the information you're hiding is. But it's still a less effective means to check than just casting TS, as you give up your best offensive abilities in exchange.

A dragon's blindsense is one of the things you gain when assuming their form via the spells and shapechanging abilities, just like crit immunity is something you get when you take an undead/elemental/construct form. In terms of combat potential, crit/sneak immunity is way more potent; why are we cherry-picking unique features of iconic monsters and stripping them from the world in the first place? True Seeing isn't the end of the world- there are tons of LoS breaks in Arelith's module design.

[Shadowy Reality]

I am just saying that giving Dragonshape TS would not break anything and would be thematically correct.
When was the last time you saw a Druid actually make use of Dragonshape? I know I have encountered a few, even PvPed some and Dragonshape is definitely not what they are using.

I am very grateful for all the work and balancing that goes into Arelith, but sometimes I fear we will end up with something that isn't really Forgotten Realms for the sake of balancing.

[Sea Shanties]

My characters have been at many dozens if not hundreds of in-game meetings behind closed doors where people scan for stealthers with TS in one way or another and I've yet to actually see a spy. I've certainly never tried to infiltrate such a meeting on my own stealthers since I know they'll just get busted immediately. (Speaking of meetings where you can't easily sneak in and out, not something in more public places.) I really don't think people are even attempting such high-level spying that often because the chances of success are so low.

If anything I think TS is too common, because having people successfully spy is both fun for them (I mean it must be exciting and nerve-wracking to be trapped in a room spying for long RL sessions) and better for generating long term RP than busting any attempt immediately.

[Kaymon24]

A dragon shape is still dragon. If the arelith team feels true seeing is too overpowering, they should at least give the dragon the characteristics of the current true seeing spell effects. As of right now, dragons have nothing.

As opposed to dragons wreaking havoc, they no longer have any DR. They can be sneak attacked. And what made them overpowering in the first place is multi classing to monk and that is taken care of. I am not even sure if they have mind protection anymore.

I am saying when they tried to balance dragon shape I think they shifted the scale to much

More power to the shadow dancers!

Lorik DeMontero (Master Shadow)

[Ork]

Dragonshape does have an easy 54 ab. 20 BAB + 29 STR + 5 weapon. None of the other forms get even close to that.

[Kaymon24]

Useless against hide in plain sight! LOL!

I will be Lorik AKA “The Dragon Slayer!

[Jagel]

Dragonshape does have an easy 54 ab. 20 BAB + 29 STR + 5 weapon. None of the other forms get even close to that.

The offense is fairly well balanced. With 3/day uses the ability could use a bit more oomph, though. Put it on cooldown instead and raise (fix) the breath dc/damage and we’d be in a good place I think