Getting rid of party/level restrictions for writs

[Seven Sons of Sin]

Probably about 50% of my time with the writ system I encounter either "what level are you?" as a tell, or run into the wall that I am either too high level for my party members, or too low level to even access a writ that everyone else intends to do.

With the writ system now having been changed to only reward Experience Points for the first time you complete that given writ, I was thinking it might be better to open up the entire system.

I dislike the methodical, entrenched progression (Cordor, then Crow's Nest, then wherever), because it undermines the sandbox-y idea of Arelith.

Maybe I'm just complaining about my personal experiences, but it can often be a system that fractures PCs as much as bringing them together.

[Cortex]

It was added because higher levels (and by higher levels I mean 5 to 10 levels above) would drag lower levels through quests, helping them complete it without any effort on their part, while ruining the experience(both literal and metaphorical) from other people who don't want or need the "help" of overleveled characters.

Personally, I haven't ran into a anyone asking my level, but it's anecdotal evidence, or lack thereof.

[Tarkus the dog]

It's one of those things I really hated and would sometimes advocate against but when you look at the bigger picture it's picking between the two lesser evils.

[Anime Sword Fighter]

With the writ system now having been changed to only reward Experience Points for the first time you complete that given writ, I was thinking it might be better to open up the entire system.

You only get Adventure Exp the first time. You still get the experience points given immediately in reward when doing a repeated writ

[An Unattended Cracker]

Personally, I haven't ran into a anyone asking my level, but it's anecdotal evidence, or lack thereof.

I have, but it's never a rude thing if someone ends up being too high a level for an area. Usually someone realizes they're impeding and will drop from the party, or they'll decline coming along if they realize they'll gimp the writ progression.

That being said, there's good reason why the level window was put in, and having a +3 levels from max stated on the writ qualify is pretty generous as it is. So I agree on the fact that lifting the restriction is a detriment - if only because there's already a big enough problem of having epic levels circlegrinding teen-level areas. It'd only make this worse.

[Mattamue]

Could this be solved with a system to apply level drain to the higher level player, allowing them to tag along with lower buddies?

Yes, it would allow high-level summons, but that's already possible.

The -1 modifier to attack rolls, skill checks, caster level, DC of spells, and saving throws would still make the content challenging for a high level character with high level feats and spells. Knockdown, for example, would still be basically content-appropriate -- maybe even over tuned on the harder side for 3/4 classes and high level epic characters coming down. There's no scaling for the lost ab. 30 down to 8 to help with a writ would be -22ab when the base ab across those levels -- even for a full ab class -- would be 17. That's a -5 ab difference... and would help adjust for overpowered gear arguments.

Unexpected PvP on the writ could be a problem, but if a system allowed for the 'reduced' character to heal the level drain -- and opt out of helping at any point -- that removes that concern.

Also, I wouldn't expect a system like this to allow a high level character to go back and get their own writs for leveling.

The exp could be a question, but why not allow a high level to get some exp while doing pve content with another player. This would just be expanding the stuff that people can do together on the server. This doesn't have to be optimal, but something like adv exp wouldn't hurt.

Excuse any typos, on mobile!

[Reallylongunneededplayername]

I'm in favor of getting rid of it:

-There are so many ways to bypass it; Not in party, Buff (specially from a healer), Gifts (summon scrolls and golems).

-It can hinder rp.

-Some folk are nice, Let them be nice.

-I think the limit on 3 contracts a day is plenty "anti abuse security".

-Folk that "wanna git 30 quick" are going to do that anyway.

[MissEvelyn]

I'm in favor of getting rid of it:

-There are so many ways to bypass it; Not in party, Buff (specially from a healer), Gifts (summon scrolls and golems).

-It can hinder rp.

-Some folk are nice, Let them be nice.

-I think the limit on 3 contracts a day is plenty "anti abuse security".

-Folk that "wanna git 30 quick" are going to do that anyway.

That pretty much sums up how I feel about it. It also makes zero sense that the writ giver can magically sense that you're in a party with someone higher level than you. It's so wrong on so many levels.

[Vrass]

Get rid of it asap... its an insult and it prevents grouping and thus rp.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

Could this be solved with a system to apply level drain to the higher level player, allowing them to tag along with lower buddies?

Yes, it would allow high-level summons, but that's already possible.

The -1 modifier to attack rolls, skill checks, caster level, DC of spells, and saving throws would still make the content challenging for a high level character with high level feats and spells. Knockdown, for example, would still be basically content-appropriate -- maybe even over tuned on the harder side for 3/4 classes and high level epic characters coming down. There's no scaling for the lost ab. 30 down to 8 to help with a writ would be -22ab when the base ab across those levels -- even for a full ab class -- would be 17. That's a -5 ab difference... and would help adjust for overpowered gear arguments.

Unexpected PvP on the writ could be a problem, but if a system allowed for the 'reduced' character to heal the level drain -- and opt out of helping at any point -- that removes that concern.

Also, I wouldn't expect a system like this to allow a high level character to go back and get their own writs for leveling.

The exp could be a question, but why not allow a high level to get some exp while doing pve content with another player. This would just be expanding the stuff that people can do together on the server. This doesn't have to be optimal, but something like adv exp wouldn't hurt.

Excuse any typos, on mobile!

I'd love the sliding scale of power as just a stand alone mechanic. While I appreciate the entrenched D&D traditions of the epics teaching the low levels, I would totally be on aboard with any kind of MMORPG-esque system where my level 25 could go off on adventures of meaningful danger with a party of level 12s.

Especially since the writ system being put in place, where before I know it I no longer have any mechanical incentive to visit half of the below-level-15 dungeons.

Like I don't want the mad XPs or whatever, I just want to be able to explore all of Arelith with the constant risk of danger.

[Ork]

Yeah despite my former investment in camp "keep the cap", it dampens player interactions.

What would be nice is collecting a group of people and applying for a writ together. The NPC would do all the work for you instead of awkward ooc conversations.

[Subutai]

I'm all for anything that makes the adventure XP system less frustrating. Since the changes to writ XP, I and many people I've spoken to, all of whom would much rather spend their time RPing than circle grinding, now spend the levels from 1-20 RPing as little as possible to keep adventure XP drain to a minimum. This has lead, from what I've experienced personally and seen from others, to more players either soloing or just logging out when they can't find a group, instead of RPing, because they dread hitting level 21 with 60k adventure XP and knowing that they doomed themselves to several additional levels of grinding all because they wanted to stop to RP.

I say ditch the level cap going all ways. Parties of any level are fine, and you can do receive and complete writs you've outleveled. There's no reason people should feel punished for RPing before level 21, and the current issues with low adventure XP (even in Adventure Mode, I'll add) absolutely punish RPing before 21.

[Reallylongunneededplayername]

I say ditch the level cap going all ways. Parties of any level are fine, and you can do receive and complete writs you've outleveled. There's no reason people should feel punished for RPing before level 21, and the current issues with low adventure XP (even in Adventure Mode, I'll add) absolutely punish RPing before 21.

No.

Here is why: its annoying to do a contract and finding some party already halfway.
With your plan the chance of that increases by solo players going for quick xp.

[MalKalz]

I have brought this up to the team and we are discussing it.

The intention down the road, at one point, was to have enough writs to do each dungeon just once and we would remove the restriction of your parties.

Presently:

- Players only gain adventure exp on their first completion of the writ.

- If we were to remove parties, experience would be one to two if a high level went into their area which does not mean you would gain much quicker - you’d just be done three writs per day.

- Removing it enables mentoring IC’ly versus OOC’ly. A lot of the times when I rejoined, I was asked what my level was or people were upset if you walked into an area. So it helps facilitate more of a focus on the narrative and collaborative arc together.

- There are other options to consider on how mentoring can be done as well. Which I believe the team will explore extensively.

I will follow up later when able.

[Ebonstar]

maybe im missing something, but there is a fix for this already. turn adventure xp on and you can fight when you want and rp when you want and omg who knew rp when you fight too.

hit level 30 with 40k pool left in place, only lost most of it do to the mandatory rebuild.

But of course im not one who has to be level 30 in two weeks, I actually had fun from 3 to29 with alot of rp and factions so my progress was over 4 months almost 5

[Mattamue]

Ran out of adv xp at level 24, and I leveled when writs still gave adv for repeats.

[Cortex]

If the option to repeat writs was removed altogether, finding parties to do writs with would be even more difficult, level restriction or not, and you would likely have more people asking what your level is.

[Huschpfusch]

Basically repeating idea Mattamue suggested slightly differently:
Teacher Mode!
Dont know if this' codeable, but random characters of all lvls being able to dungeoncrawl together in meaningful way would be awesome.
Dont know if somone 's suggested teacher mode already somewhere, but anyhow here it is (again ).

Could there be a temporary downleveling ("teacher mode") to fit the requirements of writlvl? A system where you keep your total xp-level and character template, so that when you disable teacher mode your character is switched back to whatever level he was +xp gained while in teacher mode. No re-cklicking for level, so no fudging with crafting points etc.
It aint downlevelign exactly - more of a system of disabling mostly.
e.g. "-teachermode 12" will set to lvl12 all learned feats, racial, class etc. features disabled aboved that lvl. (so no higher summons)
....and also no griefers pouncing on enemies in teacher mode problem.
...and item-lvl-restriction would kick in against hyper-elite-gear-wearing.

RP-wise the explanation of teachermode could be that the character sets himself a challenge of doing this dungeon one-handed or he does fight slower than usual so the others can see and learn...

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

Personally, I think any efforts on this would be better spent on a system that helps people of similar levels get together. Something like a speedy option that sends out a message to everyone in a defined level range that can be toggled on and off by the player of said level. I would even set the default to off so people worried about others knowing their level never have a mishap where it resets to on.

An example of how it would work: Joey the knight goes into the speedy building, chooses the option to send a speedy to everyone in a level range for x amount of gold. He is given an option for a low end and then a high end (the only ooc bit about this) and then everyone who has it toggled on gets a message "Joey the knight is gathering a group to go kill yunati in the quagmires, gather at the crows nest docks".

Why this is better then just widening or eliminating the range: Simple, really, it fosters interaction with different players every time. The idea of mentor programs sounds neat but lets be realistic here, it would be used by long time arelith buddy A to help long time arelith buddy B get their levels more often then not. The one downside to this is the "4 people is the perfect party" thing that arelith has, but even if a large group shows up you can always divide into different groups and go from there.

[RedGiant]

I know Spyre said he's working on it, but, as a newly minted 22 on my current main, the writ system I loved coming up is now the bane of my existence. If I am being a nice player, which I try to be, I am routinely having to leave parties...or not join them to begin with...while I am in level-appropriate areas. I am not babysitting, but I am, in almost all cases, 1-2 levels beyond the current party.

There is the additional angle of, as a casual player who has 1-2 hours a night at best, I often begin solo...and hope to link up with a group on the way. Inevitably where I can handle going at low epics are writ locations.

This is, as other have stated, actually having somewhat the opposite effect intended. It splinters viable groups and kills RP.

Any new direction in this regard would be greatly appreciated.

[Scylon]

Felt kind of bad the other day. A low level was really putting in the effort IC to fine someone to help, but no one was low enough to go with them -_-.

[Blood on my Lips]

Felt kind of bad the other day. A low level was really putting in the effort IC to fine someone to help, but no one was low enough to go with them -_-.

This is a perfect example of why the current system does not work.

[ReverentBlade]

I think this system and limiting the adventure XP to a single completion of a writ has really done a number on writs as a replacement for grinding. I used to see and join writ groups all the time, but its been months since I've done one now.

[Aila]

Felt kind of bad the other day. A low level was really putting in the effort IC to fine someone to help, but no one was low enough to go with them -_-.

This might have been me. I spent several hours one day looking for help and everyone was too high of a level to help. I ended up just wasting a couple of hours standing around asking before logging out and giving up.

I haven't felt the urge to log back in since then.

[The GrumpyCat]

It really is a tough one.

On the one hand I do sympathise with the level issue. It really is a pain, it stifles RP and introduces a level of meta that's annoying.

On the other hand It is also really lame to see epic levs dragging low levels around around with next to zero rp. (And yes, that happens plenty.)

Having the restriction in play is a hinderence to rp. But without it there's also a huge incentive not to rp at all. To just grab your high level buddies in discord and snatch some writs.

I hope some sort of middle ground could be discovered.