Renaming Damask

[Kuma]

So "damask" and "masterly damask" are meaningless terms, especially with regards to Forgotten Realms. "Damask" as a style of fabric does exist in vague, infrequent references, but not as a reference to a technique of sword manufacture. In that regard it is very explicitly tied to the real-world, historical city of Damascus.

Further, Arelith "masterly damask" requires the use of silver, mithril, and adamantine, in addition to what should just be "expertly folded steel". Although all masterly weapons below this require only steel to make the distinction. Steel and iron only make a damask longsword. This is really, really weird! I could imagine that for a masterly steel longsword, the silver is used in the hilt to show it as being fancier than other blades, for instance.

But needing two fictional metals to make the endgame weapon really ought to bump it up into the uniquely named and storied material category. To that end, I'd like people's ideas on what we could rename Damask and Masterly Damask to.

For reference:

Code: Select all

Damask Weapon
X Coal
X Ingot (Steel)
1 Ingot (Iron)
(X varies depending on weapon size)

Masterly Damask Weapon
2 Coal
1 Ingot (Silver)
1 Ingot (Steel)
1 Ingot (Adamantine)
2 Ingot (Mithril)
(No varying recipes from weapon size)

Renaming T1 damask to something more immersive while retaining its mundane, expertly crafted quality would be cool. Renaming Mdamask to something entirely unique or, better yet, actually part of FR lore, would be cool too.

i know its not a big deal to anyone but honestly i have to stop and ask "hey what actually does damask mean" IC sometimes and nobody knows how to answer properly.

[Aodh Lazuli]

Pattern welded and Adamantine pattern welded.

That removes the reference to the real world city, and solves the problem, while still describing exactly what is meant by the name.

[Poolbrain]

This is gonna get so geeky but let's do it.

I think it all depends on what the "Damask" part in the name refers to.

Let's get to the basics!

Steel in itself is a broad name for an alloy most commonly consisting of iron and a very small percentage of coal. The steel will behave very differently depending on how much coal you use and how you're heating it/cooling it down.

Adding various other metals like aluminium and titanium will also add different attributes (like making the alloy more resistant to corrosion). These alloys will still most commonly be referred to as "steel" or even "iron" (while pure iron is something you would very rarely ever work with unless it's the chemical properties you're after). Your most common cutlery at home will most like likely contain a percentage of nickel.

To get back to Damask! We could guess it's referring to Damascus steel which is (according to wiki, I really don't know anything about this) a blade made of "Wootz steel". From what I understand Wootz steel (wiki) was considered very strong because it has some very stable types of crystalline structures inside it (martensite). I would assume making it hard and brittle while less flexible.

SO! In a fantasy setting would the regular Damask Weapon perhaps be made of an alloy using steel (iron and coal, silver for corrosion resistance?) tempered in a certain way to get some very attractive attributes while the MASTERLY Damask weapon would be even more luxurious, using a steel alloy with adamantium and mithril? I don't think that would be too unlikely?

If the creators of DnD bothered to add a list with proper attributes for their made up materials we could discuss this even further (What is mithril, is it flexible, brittle? What really makes it strong? How does it behave in different temperatures, perhaps it's better to put something else inside an alloy for weapon, like tungsten!?)

Final note: Who the hell cares? This is a fantasy filled with references to the real world.

[Bunny]

Its simply folded metal

[Cortex]

name them longsword +3 and masterwork longsword +3

[Opustus]

Name it Best Metöl

[TimeAdept]

My PCs kept it simple and called it "Adamask" because it's Adamantine-Damascus. It keeps the name, and by adding one letter, makes it fit in with the universe while not requiring a new naming convention. The Adamask process is that of alloying Adamantine, normally a notoriously difficult metal to work with, with other metals that allow it to be more easily shaped and used.

"Masterly" just implies it's masterwork, which has its roots in the PNP system as a mundane weapon with a +1 attack bonus. I suspect that's the same reason t's used here. I refused to use "Masterly" IC too and always used the word "Masterworked" or exemplary or etc because I never liked the word "Masterly".

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

In this regard, when thinking of a damask weapon, you're envisioning a visual accent of some sort on the weapon that corresponds to magical enhancement, perhaps even runes.

dam·ask
/ˈdaməsk/
Learn to pronounce
noun
noun: damask; plural noun: damasks; noun: damask steel; plural noun: damask steels

1.
a figured woven fabric with a pattern visible on both sides, typically used for table linen and upholstery.
2.
short for damask rose.
3.
historical
another term for Damascus steel.

adjective

made of or resembling damask.
"the satinlike finish of these damask napkins"
literary
having the velvety pink or light red color of a damask rose.
adjective: damask

verbliterary
verb: damask; 3rd person present: damasks; past tense: damasked; past participle: damasked; gerund or present participle: damasking

decorate with or as if with a variegated pattern.

Origin
late Middle English: from Damaske, early form of the name of Damascus, where the fabric was first produced.

https://www.realmshelps.net/magic/magweapon-spec.shtml

Kakita Katana

The master smiths of the Kakita family claim that they produce the finest blades in the Empire. A Kakita katana is made of exceptionally fine steel, durable and flexible, and is able to withstand the passage of a thousand years. The master smiths use only Hida steel in their blades, claiming that it far outshines any other in the Empire. A Kakita blade is distinguished by its light weight and flexibility, and by the fine lines of bluish damask running down the cutting edge, causing the entire blade to shine with a slight tint. These blades are usually bestowed only upon samurai who have proven their honor and courage, and only very rarely upon samurai who are not of the Crane clan.
A nonmagical Kakita katana has a natural +2 enhancement bonus.
CL: - ; Market Price: 9,400 gp.
Source: Oriental Adventures

[Ebonstar]

I think we are reading into it to much. but no name should ever have a plus value at the end

[Dr. B]

Invent an Arelith-canon specific region of FR called "Damask", in which the technique for making those blades was discovered. Let's say it's a region of Calimshan or Tethyr.

Plenty of places and things in FR are deliberate manglings of the names of real-life places and things, so this would be par for the course.

Problem solved, no extra work by the dev team required.

[Irongron]

I've long said that I would actually prefer to end the uniformity of weapons at Masterly Steel, removing Greensteel, Damask and Masterly Damask entirely.

In their place each weapon would have 2-3 special recipes unique to that weapon. Their names and thus surrounding lore would either fit to RL weapons, or be based in Forgotten Realms terminology.

I did not yet approach this as with HAKs we can first adjust some weapon properties, and add more. Only when I know that the weapons themselves will not see any further adjustment can we even start thinking about this really. It will also be extremely difficult to do well.

Still, if anyone wants to start a feedback megathread with suggestions for what they could be then by all means have a try at it. I would imagine crushing weapons using lead rather than arjale for keen, but broadly the ingredient types should remain the same. Damage output between weapons at the top tier would need to be narrowed from where they are now, and as 'universal' weapons they should not have class/race use restrictions, or properties that make their appeal too specific to any class.

Though with some weapons about to be changed, and new ones added (likely in the next 1-3 days), it might be worth waiting a while.

[TimeAdept]

I don't think you should remove Greensteel/Damask MD. It's important for game balance that there be a core "basic" endgame set of equipment available for every piece of equipment type. Greensteel/Damask/MD serve this necessary niche. This ensures that every weapon type and archetype has basic support available to it, no matter what sort of material a player has access to, but also gives people something to look forward to progression to beyond that, with unique weapons like Moonblades, loot found unique weapons, runing, and 5%ing. You always want basic endgame gear available, otherwise it's a very very big jump from level 7, when you can use steel, until such a time as you're able to get access to whatever 'unique' item you might be looking for crafting. Adding more interesting and unique weapons sounds great, but it shouldn't be a decision between that and basic, always accessible materials.

More variety is better, and doesn't need to come at the cost of what we already have accessible to us.

[Xarge VI]

I think Masterly Damask weapons could as well be turned to Adamant weapons since adamant is required to make them.
Normal Damask weapons could be mithril weapons.

[The Kriv]

I say remove them. In fact... make it so when a weapon is forged, it's maximum ranks of 'repair' is based on the skill of the craftsman (kind of like wands!) and every time the weapon is repaired to maximum... the maximum it can be repaired is lowered by 1.

Eventually, over time, you will just have to get a new weapon because you just can't repair your current one back up to full quality.

This would mean that the increase in demand for average quality goes up.

THEN, add existing forged weapons to be melted down into useable items. So that there will be an after-market for badly damaged weapons not worth repairing any longer... a blacksmith can buy them for use in other recipes.

What's that you say? You don't like this idea because you have invested money in an essence? WELL! look to the archers!!!! We can make WEAPON ESSANCE TEMPLATES! you can load in your PERMANENT ESSENCE into the WEAPON ESSENCE TEMPLATE... that way, when you have to replace your finely crafted weapon, you can just simply run your template through it, and you don't have to cry about having to re-buy essences for that thumbtack of doom you weild.

-I think this is a win win scenario.

Then... into the loot table... added magical weapons that have an extremely low % drop rate that DO NOT degrade when they are repaired.

-and since we have non-adventuring classes now... a specialized MASTER craftsman that is a non-adventurer, who is of specific racial type can make specific magical weapons that DO NOT degrade. Elves=Longswords Dwarves=Axes, etc...

[Seven Sons of Sin]

How have I not agreed with this sooner.

Damask always struck me as some weird uneducated orientalism. Adamant makes more sense, since its derived from adamantine (or is it adamantium?).

Overhauling the weapon progression would also be fantastic because its currently bloated with "masterly" variants of iron and steel. I'd love to know the typical meleer's progression. Especially with scroll changes.

Is it bronze -> iron -> steel -> damask -> masterly damask?

Or is it like bronze -> steel -> masterly damask?

Os bronze -> damask -> masterly damask?

With how quick leveling is, and how easy it is to obtain gold, I wonder how much has changed. Personally, I know I always skip iron weapons and go straight for steel. I can't say I've ever ever had a "masterly" iron or steel weapon either. (or Greensteel for that matter, but thats because it always seemed super niche)