Secondary Skills (Open Development Idea)

[Irongron]

As I mentioned in this thread, where I gave rough road map for future development, we plan on adding secondary skills, rather than provide mechanical benefit, these are skills that should simply enrich the gameplay experience.

While containing a number of new skills, it will also contain a few existing NWN skills that cannot reasonably compete with those that are clearly more vital for adventuring. Secondary skills will be 'fed' from a different pool of skill points to the primary, and as such should in no way affect the core group in terms of opportunity cost.

Arelith players are full of good ideas, and because this is a topic unlikely to descend into a confrontational mechanics discussion, I hope we can keep it light, and and enjoyable for everyone. I and the team have a few ideas, but I've got a feeling our players will have even more. The developers are swamped at the moment as it is, so it might be good to take the weight of their collective shoulders and have the community take a stab at it.

As with primary skills these would be split between native class skills (1 on 1 ratio for ranks) and those that require higher invested due to being outside of one's class. They would also gain from some stat and feat bonuses. Some classes/races will get minor bonuses to certain skills. Further to this some classes would get hard bonuses to certain skills (such as how Shadowdancers gain ranks in hide)

These are not all my own ideas; there's already been some neat suggestions from the team. Some of these ideas will be bad.

Skills marked with 'Synergy' means they would receive further check bonuses based on the value of that skill. So a character using 'Linguistics' might receive +1 to the check for every 5 ranks in lore.

OUTDOOR SURVIVAL

Hunting (Ranger Bonus) - Synergy - Set Trap, Tracking - Allows for more meat and skin when hunting animals or fishing. Will reveal extra animals on map, animals receive spot/listen penalty against character

Foraging (Ranger Bonus) - Synergy - Lore - Allows for greater yields when picking plants, spawns extra plants when exploring, food/rest reduction reduced in natural areas)

Tracking (Ranger/Assassin Bonus) Synergy - Lore- Opens the -track command, can determine the the direction of person leaving the tracks if they're within a certain number of areas areas (thanks to Artinedes for already making the script to enable this function)

Sailing - (Pirate Bonus) A character with this skill, when on the deck of a PC ship may decrease journey times, give a longer warning before NPC Attack, and % bonus of evading grappling attacks from PC ships (would be couped with message 'You have successfully evaded a grappling attempt from [Ship Name]

URBAN SURVIVAL

Streetwise (Rogue Bonus) The character has an instinct for life in big cities and settlements, and interacting with the local underworld, such as merchants that buy stolen goods, evading exile (by avoidance not disguise) and bartending skill bonuses

ATHELETIC

Climbling Would replace our current calculation on climbing spots, which is based upon fixed stats, and so is largely unable to train in.

Swimming Would be used when interacting 'jump overboard' and 'Pearl Diving' scripts, but we'd also overhaul the module with swimming spots, along coast, rivers, and in dungeons where bodies of water exist. The swim check would be made not when crossing the water, but in revealing the 'swimming spots of increasingly difficulties' - if you can see it, it means you can safely swim it. A second check would be made when attempting to use the swim spot, against your carry weight and strength, if below a certain amount you'd be avised that you are currently 'too emcumbered to swim here'. Swim ranks would effect both of these things a) swim spots would have accompanying required ranks to be revealed and b) would affect how much carry weight you could manage to cross the water with.

ACADEMIC

Linguistics (Bard Bonus) Synergy - Lore Would increase the speed languages can be learned & taught, and the maximum number of languages, possibly scribing phrasebooks

Calligraphy/Forging Allow one to determine the author of unsigned messages on messageboards, or where pseudonym has been used, allows for one to conceal their own identity more readly, when doing the same

Arms Lore (Fighter Bonus) Synergy - Lore. Knowledge of the properties, use and maintenance of arms and armour. This skill would do a number of things, -reduce the required level on arms use, the higher the ranks (I'm not talking about UMD, but rather the restriction that currently comes wit GP value), - decrease the rate at which arms are damaged during combat, and allowing for a bonus when examining unidentified arms.


THEOLOGICAL

Liturgy (Cleric Bonus) Used when interacting with altars. The ability to conduct ritual ceromonies. Increases the range and efficacy of the 'conduct ritual' option on altars (with possibly some minor bonuses), and the speed at which praying raises the dead.

MAGICAL

Attunement (Sorcerer Bonus) Synergy - UMD. Lowers the required level of spellcasting items (Not lore/UMD, but that based upon the item value as shown in the description text). Increases adventure XP bonus when attuning to portals.

SOCIAL SKILLS
Diplomacy Synergy - Leadership, Intimidate, Bluff This skill would be used as a universal check for conversation options in game, and a go-to options for those who did not want to specialise in any of the above 3.

Appraise/Barter - the vanilla skill.



So if anyone has:

a) Suggestions for new secondarly skills
b) Feedback on those tentative ideas for them above
c) Ideas for how skill points should be split fairly between the groups

We'd love to hear them.

And again, just to stress. These skills should really just be about general fun, and not PvP class balance. By all means point it out if you feel some of the bonuses being suggested by me or anyone else are too great for a secondary skill, or if they're a bad idea precisely because they would impact class balance in a way that hasn't been foreseen, but other than that I'm hoping this is really just a topic we can all simply enjoy.

[monkeywithstick]

This feels like it might be appropriate to merge the craft skills into such a system. It might be a pain to balance, but, not everybody wants to do craft RP and I feel having three separate skill pools (primary/secondary/crafting) with slightly different rules for each is just complexity for the sake of it.

[Dreams]

+ Sea Elf = Auto-swim success.

[Irongron]

This feels like it might be appropriate to merge the craft skills into such a system. It might be a pain to balance, but, not everybody wants to do craft RP and I feel having three separate skill pools (primary/secondary/crafting) with slightly different rules for each is just complexity for the sake of it.

I mentioned this also in our developer discussion, but I think it was probably right not to do so. The crafting system on Arelith brings very distinct benefits. If they were on this list I think almost everyone would choose them.

+ Sea Elf = Auto-swim success.

Would definitely allow for some thematics for aquatic/water themed PCs.

[Diegovog]

Pretty cool stuff. Seems to be heading to the right direction.

Caligraphy/forgery could become a problem though. How can someone know your true identity if that was your first text ever posted and there is nothing to compare? Or reveal the identity of someone who nas never posted anything under their true identity. Or people who -always- hide their true names, they would have it revealed in an awkward unintended way. I believe it could lead to some meta gamey situations that even the players would not be aware of.

[Diegovog]

Sorry about the double post. Maybe change it to basically use someone else's name as alias.
For example, if I have it high enough, I could post a note in cordor signed as Amadeo Pneuma as long as he doens't have more points in this secondary skill than I do.
It could lead to some interesting slander situations. Maybe even open up to another skill to identify forgeries.

[Nitro]

I like most of them, some neat stuff.

Attunement though could use some changing around. Both of its bonuses are only valuable pre-30, so any invested points will essentially be wasted when you hit the level cap as you no longer benefit from more adventure XP or lower level requirements on items. I'd suggest changing it so you use less spell components with it instead, to match the arms lore theme of lowered everyday maintenance costs.

[Dreams]

Fishing -
I would suggest it becomes separate from hunting/gathering. The current system is actually pretty cool already, but has a huge potential to be expanded.

- Different Fishing Rods (various bonuses to skill, or simply for more likelihood of particular fish)
- Different Tackle setups (heavy/light lines, heavy/light sinkers, big/little hooks, lure/bait)
- Different types of fish for different locations.

Having the right combination of rod, line, sinker, hook, bait-type, and location could equal a better chance of catching particular fish.

I don't know how to write code, but I'm an expert fisherman and would happily write up a table of how these combinations might work.

[Reallylongunneededplayername]

OUTDOOR SURVIVAL

Hunting (Ranger Bonus) - Synergy - Set Trap, Tracking - Allows for more meat and skin when hunting animals or fishing. Will reveal extra animals on map, animals receive spot/listen penalty against character

*I'd add it to barbarian too, As they can be roleplayed as "wild men", Hunters in their own right.

Foraging (Ranger Bonus) - Synergy - Lore - Allows for greater yields when picking plants, spawns extra plants when exploring, food/rest reduction reduced in natural areas)

*Druid too? I honestly feel you could even combine it when a person has a high skill in herbalism, As they should be by then be quite skilled at foraging.

Tracking (Ranger/Assassin Bonus) Synergy - Lore- Opens the -track command, can determine the the direction of person leaving the tracks if they're within a certain number of areas areas (thanks to Artinedes for already making the script to enable this function)

*I'm going to say rogue too, I mean they would track their "mark" through busy streets and open roads to snatch that purse, No?

Sailing - (Pirate Bonus) A character with this skill, when on the deck of a PC ship may decrease journey times, give a longer warning before NPC Attack, and % bonus of evading grappling attacks from PC ships (would be couped with message 'You have successfully evaded a grappling attempt from [Ship Name]

*truth fully, And everyone who ever played a pirate will agree, Make it so we can give more direction to sailing; pick between searching the seas for ship or islet or set difficulty of it; Search for lvl 1-4 encounters. Maybe search for player ships as option.

Set Trap - the vanilla skill.

Ice ice trap baby.

URBAN SURVIVAL

Streetwise (Rogue Bonus) The character has an instinct for life in big cities and settlements, and interacting with the local underworld, such as merchants that buy stolen goods, evading exile (by avoidance not disguise) and bartending skill bonuses

**Add assasin, Maybe bard.

ATHELETIC

Climbling Would replace our current calculation on climbing spots, which is based upon fixed stats, and so is largely unable to train in.

Swimming Would be used when interacting 'jump overboard' and 'Pearl Diving' scripts, but we'd also overhaul the module with swimming spots, along coast, rivers, and in dungeons where bodies of water exist. The swim check would be made not when crossing the water, but in revealing the 'swimming spots of increasingly difficulties' - if you can see it, it means you can safely swim it. A second check would be made when attempting to use the swim spot, against your carry weight and strength, if below a certain amount you'd be avised that you are currently 'too emcumbered to swim here'. Swim ranks would effect both of these things a) swim spots would have accompanying required ranks to be revealed and b) would affect how much carry weight you could manage to cross the water with.

ACADEMIC

Linguistics (Bard Bonus) Synergy - Lore Would increase the speed languages can be learned & taught, and the maximum number of languages, possibly scribing phrasebooks

**I think you should open it to all classes

Calligraphy/Forging Allow one to determine the author of unsigned messages on messageboards, or where pseudonym has been used, allows for one to conceal their own identity more readly, when doing the same

Arms Lore (Fighter Bonus) Synergy - Lore. Knowledge of the properties, use and maintenance of arms and armour. This skill would do a number of things, -reduce the required level on arms use, the higher the ranks (I'm not talking about UMD, but rather the restriction that currently comes wit GP value), - decrease the rate at which arms are damaged during combat, and allowing for a bonus when examining unidentified arms.

*I am tempted to say put it on base strenght being over 20. This is as close you get to state "Yes this character is a warrior of sorts
and highly likely to be using weapons and armor.

*Maybe that it suits to place with this skill: Sleep in armor.
THEOLOGICAL

Liturgy (Cleric Bonus) Used when interacting with altars. The ability to conduct ritual ceromonies. Increases the range and efficacy of the 'conduct ritual' option on altars (with possibly some minor bonuses), and the speed at which praying raises the dead.

MAGICAL

Attunement (Sorcerer Bonus) Synergy - UMD. Lowers the required level of spellcasting items (Not lore/UMD, but that based upon the item value as shown in the description text). Increases adventure XP bonus when attuning to portals.

*Just not feeling it, I personally wouldn't use it.

-Disenchant (Sorcerer, Wizard)
The abillity to remove skill enchantments from magical items. (personally I'd go for remove any enchantment from a magical item)

SOCIAL SKILLS
Diplomacy Synergy - Leadership, Intimidate, Bluff This skill would be used as a universal check for conversation options in game, and a go-to options for those who did not want to specialise in any of the above 3.

Appraise/Barter - the vanilla skill.

FORGOTTEN SKILLS

miner: Gets more rocks yo
Logger: Get's more wood yo.


I gave some pointers, Added a few skills.

[Kalopsia]

Could also use the Tracking skill for hiding your own tracks.

Maybe an automatic tracking check whenever people pass a transition?
DC could be affected by the leaving character's track skill, as well as the time that's passed since then (and maybe the current weather or other area modifiers). Characters would only get a notification if they notice any tracks.

[Bunny]

This maybe off target but have you considered special moves or specializations? Taking a base skill and bonu’n it in a specific context? performance into a specific instrument play for a crowd and charm them all get a bonus appraisal reaction.

[Diegovog]

Attunement - Maybe allow people with high enough attunement to use one way portals to leave the area (for example, cordor frontier rift to actually leave the area instead of only teleporting to). Weaker than actually teleporting or creating a portal but accessible to non-transmutators and non-casters.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

Sorry about the double post. Maybe change it to basically use someone else's name as alias.
For example, if I have it high enough, I could post a note in cordor signed as Amadeo Pneuma as long as he doens't have more points in this secondary skill than I do.
It could lead to some interesting slander situations. Maybe even open up to another skill to identify forgeries.

The way forgeries should work is your skill being checked against the person checking your writing, not the one you are pretending to be. So like a city would have an employed expert to help prevent fraud.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

Attunement - Maybe allow people with high enough attunement to use one way portals to leave the area (for example, cordor frontier rift to actually leave the area instead of only teleporting to). Weaker than actually teleporting or creating a portal but accessible to non-transmutators and non-casters.

I think that is a cool idea, but would need to ve limited use similar to a transmuter teleporting otherwise you will start becoming the odd man out when everyone but you has high Attunement.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

Question: by secondary skills you mean a set of secondary skill points for said skills, or do they require the same investment as a primary skill?

I am just a little foggy on the secondary part.

[Apokriphos]

Question: by secondary skills you mean a set of secondary skill points for said skills, or do they require the same investment as a primary skill?

I am just a little foggy on the secondary part.

I too am confused by this.

So as I understand, the traditional way of achieving skill points based on class and intelligence would remain for primary, traditional skills - so as to not disturb balance and drive everyone to low skill point classes with high utility (like Sorcerer). Then, a new skill pool calculated in a different way (with everyone having more or less similar numbers) would be based on level, to be used only for secondary skills?

[Subutai]

I have a couple of suggestions that I'll post a little later, but I just want to give Irongron a big thank you for this thread. I've mentioned transparency and using mechanically-minded community members to gauge balance multiple times now, as have many other users, and this is the exact kind of thing I think this server needs more of.

I hope this sort of methodology finds a strong foothold in the Arelith development process, because community involvement in changes is absolutely fantastic.

[Irongron]

Question: by secondary skills you mean a set of secondary skill points for said skills, or do they require the same investment as a primary skill?

I am just a little foggy on the secondary part.

One way or another it will be similar to existing crafting skills. New skill areas, with new points to spend on them, entirely separate from the existing ones.

There is very little decided how it might actually finally appear. Adding in skills, while something we've discussed, isn't about to appear in the next week or two. Still, when it does come to actual developing I think having this to refer to will be a huge help. There's been some really good pointers here, and suggestions for skill types I overlooked (mining, logging)

As long as we can really steer away from anything which gives PCs bonuses in combat/new spells etc, this could be a great area.

[Huschpfusch]

-- Moving what I wrote in other thread, due to unawareness of this thread's existance --

Secondary/rp skills should probably not be tied ot any stat - otherwise that would mean again one had to put stat points into something and then gear would give boost to stat thus influencing the secondary rp skill also.
Rather just give it same skill point amount to distribute for any character at lvl1 and on lvl ups. Much like crafting point system.

BUT also there could be points in game that give a permanent boost to a secondary skill. Those quests would have to be written so so on first time complete it adds a cumulative +1 permanent skill while on repeat it gives just basic money and xp like all other writs. Also thematically they would have to be a story tuned to the skill it is going to reward.

AND the there could be DM panel approved skill point reward for playercharacters that make events, or create masisve content via books or fixtures. The latter options being performable also by players who play in timezones with hardly any players and DMs around.

a) Secondary skill ideas with yet stupid names:
a1) (Artsyfartsy) - basically the RP equivalent of perform, but not tied to disguise mechanics and class. The music aspect of arts type rp-skill unlocks musical instruments one by one. On click like with scroll - learn how to play. And for completing the learning one might even have to buy lessons (similar to how feats are aquired on persistent world server) from a NPC AND/or maybe PC bards can give lessons.

a2) (Animal handling) - the non-combat equivalent of animal empathy. No animal language. It can make hostile wild animals turn non-hostile and go away peacefully. It can make non-combat quest animals joinable - e.g. farmland quest of chicken courier -> bringing Cordor farmland chickens to Bendir farm; bringing thunderbird at weatherstone to dryad grove, getting the seagulls at the lighthouse to not fly poopattacks at the nearby ship all the time - (rp-skill pcs figure out by behavior and all the empty shells lying around the seagulls are only flying to ship to pick up the shelltype creatures sticking to the ship; animal language talker PCs get a direct seagull conversation).

[Irongron]

-- Moving what I wrote in other thread, due to unawareness of this thread's existance --

Secondary/rp skills should probably not be tied ot any stat - otherwise that would mean again one had to put stat points into something and then gear would give boost to stat thus influencing the secondary rp skill also.
Rather just give it same skill point amount to distribute for any character at lvl1 and on lvl ups. Much like crafting point system.

BUT also there could be points in game that give a permanent boost to a secondary skill. Those quests would have to be written so so on first time complete it adds a cumulative +1 permanent skill while on repeat it gives just basic money and xp like all other writs. Also thematically they would have to be a story tuned to the skill it is going to reward.

AND the there could be DM panel approved skill point reward for playercharacters that make events, or create masisve content via books or fixtures. The latter options being performable also by players who play in timezones with hardly any players and DMs around.

a) Secondary skill ideas with yet stupid names:
a1) (Artsyfartsy) - basically the RP equivalent of perform, but not tied to disguise mechanics and class. The music aspect of arts type rp-skill unlocks musical instruments one by one. On click like with scroll - learn how to play. And for completing the learning one might even have to buy lessons (similar to how feats are aquired on persistent world server) from a NPC AND/or maybe PC bards can give lessons.

a2) (Animal handling) - the non-combat equivalent of animal empathy. No animal language. It can make hostile wild animals turn non-hostile and go away peacefully. It can make non-combat quest animals joinable - e.g. farmland quest of chicken courier -> bringing Cordor farmland chickens to Bendir farm; bringing thunderbird at weatherstone to dryad grove, getting the seagulls at the lighthouse to not fly poopattacks at the nearby ship all the time - (rp-skill pcs figure out by behavior and all the empty shells lying around the seagulls are only flying to ship to pick up the shelltype creatures sticking to the ship; animal language talker PCs get a direct seagull conversation).

I really like this, and agree about the stats. I hadn't considered this was something we could have world side rank gaining for, though I know some of our developers had considered 'learning by doing' as a real option here.

Animal Handling sounds likea must have, and the 'artsyfartsy' skill (I will NEVER call a skill that) reminded me, once again, of something in the Rolemaster RPG (Where we drew our Weapon Groups from).

Like a few RPGs it allows people to make their own skill, under a certain heading. So for instance, something like 'Woodcrafting' - Minature Soldiers' could be an option if you REALLY wanted your character to dedice their skill ranks to something so obsure. Obviously that wouldn't work on Arelith, but learning a specific instrument you wished to play, where you would get the floating musical notes, and could use a visible handheld instrument, its absolutely possible

https://neverwintervault.org/project/nw ... animations

https://neverwintervault.org/project/nw ... instrument

https://neverwintervault.org/project/nw ... otu-padded

[Kshatriya]

Going to suggest "Balance" using dex as a potentially cool secondary skill. Could be used in association with other tasks like climbing. As for its own personal usage probably for opening up other little pathways that require one to sidle across a cliff ledge or hop across rocks or something. This is a secondary skill that I'd suggest having a monk bonus as well as I haven't seen any suggested so far that have as much for monk.

I've personally always been a huge fan of those little tucked away areas in the module that require you to use an otherwise "hidden" transition to access. Being able to add more of these and make them little hidden away alcoves/cookies for people to find using their skills is something that is a huge draw personally.

[Huschpfusch]

Going to suggest "Balance" using dex as a potentially cool secondary skill. Could be used in association with other tasks like climbing. As for its own personal usage probably for opening up other little pathways that require one to sidle across a cliff ledge or hop across rocks or something. This is a secondary skill that I'd suggest having a monk bonus as well as I haven't seen any suggested so far that have as much for monk.

I've personally always been a huge fan of those little tucked away areas in the module that require you to use an otherwise "hidden" transition to access. Being able to add more of these and make them little hidden away alcoves/cookies for people to find using their skills is something that is a huge draw personally.

With sort of learnable acrobatics skill (monks could benefit from monk bonus) there could be a Arelith wide hide-and-seek quest that requires PCs to crawl, climb, balance etc. into hidden areas to find the NPCs. And each character spills some info where the next one is hiding.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Fr55ZVOvs4

[Kshatriya]

Balance/Acrobatics either is usable and both sort of cover the gist of what I was going for with the suggestion.

[Irongron]

Fishing -
I would suggest it becomes separate from hunting/gathering. The current system is actually pretty cool already, but has a huge potential to be expanded.

- Different Fishing Rods (various bonuses to skill, or simply for more likelihood of particular fish)
- Different Tackle setups (heavy/light lines, heavy/light sinkers, big/little hooks, lure/bait)
- Different types of fish for different locations.

Having the right combination of rod, line, sinker, hook, bait-type, and location could equal a better chance of catching particular fish.

I don't know how to write code, but I'm an expert fisherman and would happily write up a table of how these combinations might work.

I actually proposed something for a new fishing system earlier today. Basically it would entail:

- Fishing Spots would appear near water when you equipped fishing rod. These would not all be the same as far as the amount of fish you'd catch. - sure you can fish at a small UD lake but don't expect to fill your catch bag.

- When you caught your first fish it would generate a 'Catch Bag' in your inventory - similar to the headbacks etc, and all the fish you caught would go into it. When empty (fish sold) it would disappear again.

- We could have 6 different types of fishing spots, depending on the waters: Seawater (Temperate/Tropical) Freshwater (Temperate/Tropical) and Underdark (Sea, Pool). We would then write lists of what fish appear at which types. Such as Salmon, Eel, Carp in freshwater temperate, Cod, Crab in seawater, and so on. These could then be sold to food vendors at varying prices depending on their value, and might find their way into recipes later. We could add your idea of different "rod, line, sinker, hook, bait-type" to be more suitable for these different groups.

I should say that I wouldn't like more horribly video gamey 'eat fish to gain INT points kind of stuff, but as a means to kick back, enjoy life by the river, earn a a few coin and deplete the adventure XP pool as with taverns? I'd be all for it. I also probably wouldn't want to go TOO overboard different options to craft fishing rods.

[Ebonstar]

for tracking (ranger/assassin) i would put the synergy with spot over lore, because your spotting tracks and broken grass and such things. Lore would be more what made the track rather than the actual tracking.

i would also put tracking in urban areas for rogues with the same spot synergy. They are typical the city style types so they could follow someone better in that environment