Polymorph TS Suggestion

[RedGiant]

viewtopic.php?f=51&p=210239#p210239

I think this is problematic.

Cleric's with animal or knowledge domain have it as a 3rd and 4th lvl spell, without the associated weakness of having to pop into an Umberhulk Form. Sure the form makes you really tough...if you are like lvls 1-5. For most people after that, popping the form will introduce terrible weaknesses, which offset the ability IMO.

Also, each polymorph form introduced a neat ability: DR, Regen, On-hit Poison, True-Sight, Speed. What is left now? Just a crappy form. These kind of suggestions should really add something rather than just take things away.

[Miskol]

I'm not so sure if the Umberhulk form would be considered a "hard counter" to stealth builds. Yes, it breaks stealth, sure. But being in that form more often than not limits your ability to fight the said opponent, and the stealth specialist can quite easily round a corner to restealth once again should the polymorph caster decide to break the form. Investing 25 ranks into lore and casting true sight from a scroll would effectively accomplish the same task of detecting a stealth specialist, but doesn't actually give an option to engage said specialist (given the short duration of true sight and the widely known strategy of ducking around corners). I would say pushing this change through simply takes more tools out of the hands of those invested in UMD and reinforces the thought that a noncaster character must invest into lore to be viable.

[Anomandaris]

Hey! I made the suggestion and agree something new for Umber’s would be nice to replace it. The issue is I know tons of players that before Opening any sensitive door cast poly.

Simply getting spotted while sneaking into enemy territory is life threatening (especially if you’re a monster race) along with the fact it offers a bonus to piercing disguises. Having 90+ hide and a pre epic spot you because they have TS is bogus IMO. The tool to counter something that hard to obtain should be equally hard to obtain.

All in all sneaks still gotta surface to do any real damage, and we usually pay a big price in saves, AC and AB to be able to have that crazy hide/me and/or HIPS.

It’s just too easy to get poly. And TS requires more than 25 lore I think it’s 35 or 50 even cuz lvl 7. Even casters that know the spell have to sacrifice high level spell slots and be mindful when they use it because the duration is short. Sure you can fight with TS but the point is not even about killing, it’s about spotting at which point often there is a big problem for the sneak. Failed infiltration, summoned help etc.

[TheRagingGoblin]

I agree. Sneaks (especially those with HIPS) are more powerful than ever and the polymorph wand is a good tool here but nothing overpowering. With the removal of TS from umber hulk shape sneaks gain another boost as everyone else loses another tool against them.

In recent months sneaks have also been made more powerful by:

* True seeing nerf
* Increased difficulty in accessing true seeing
* Balagarn's iron horn nerf

Additionally, sneaks love using their pseudo-invisibility to sneak into quarters as people enter. Removing true seeing from umber hulk shape removes a lot of risk for them and this behaviour will only increase as a result.

[Anomandaris]

A spot boost on umber is one thing, but having a level 4 spell negate 100+ pts in hide/ms is crazy.

[Miskol]

Hide and move silent gain bonuses from dexterity. AC is granted by dexterity. AB is granted by dexterity because rogues receive weapon finesse for free. Rogues have to surface to do major sneak attack damage, but they can also gain epic dodge, high tumble to avoid attacks of opportunity. Blinding speed is now on cooldown and offers additional AC and kiting potential. All these combined enable them to swoop in and back to stealth with ease. So in effect, I don't really see the problems you've highlighted. Furthermore, rogues have grenades and unique consumables. Prior to this proposed change, I would say many players already agree that rogues are in a good state - they do not need more of an advantage.

If you're a monstrous race, frankly if you're spotted on the surface it wouldn't matter if you had a bluff score of 150, Arelith still has a "what you see is what you get" rule and you would be open to attack. As for being hard to obtain, it has been mentioned in past discussion topics that hide/move silent has far more utility than listen/spot.

Truly important meetings are held on player-owned ships, with anti scrying measures activated where rogues cannot enter. The point of having an accessible way of detecting stealth specialists is so they cannot do a stomp dance in front of players and expect not to be caught.

[Anomandaris]

Just because I play a stealth char doesn’t mean I don’t have to deal with them as enemies too. As a player of one I know full well the capabilities, and they are dangerous. The issue was having any character have a guaranteed spot regardless of class/ build (for the most part). It’s a pretty powerful tool to universally counter a specialized epic characters main schtick.

[Miskol]

The true seeing effect and item property allows a creature to see through darkness, invisibility, sanctuary, and stealth. This makes it stronger than a combination of see invisibility and ultravision (see through / target in darkness). It does not, however, allow a creature to see around walls, nor does it negate concealment.

-From the NWN wiki

Using stealth smartly (such as keeping yourself hidden behind a wall) will counter someone with true sight. Again, there is no need to make stealth detection so far out of reach that rogues can follow right behind you into your quarter without any risk. Being detected in stealth can present roleplay opportunities, limiting the ways stealth can be broken will also just limit the chances of roleplay happening.

[TheRagingGoblin]

True seeing is innate level 5 so 25 lore is required.

If I'm going to strawman treating 100 hide/ms as invisibility in the open is also crazy. However, what should be kept in mind isn't cost effectiveness but overall balance. Sneaks are currently very powerful and removing further tools for mundanes to detect them further unbalances the situation.

True seeing scrolls for mundanes only give a round of true seeing. Any sneak (by corner sneaking or HIPS) can simply kite them one or two rounds then re-enter stealth and the cycle begins anew. Umber hulk shape can prevent much of this but you're looking at a polymorphed melee type who've lost much of their power & tools, versus a sneak who has retained all of their own minus their stealth ability. That is of course until the polymorphed opponent ends the polymorph to fight more effectively and you can end up in the former situation. True seeing & umber hulk shape are useful tools in battling sneaks but they're not overpowering.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

I also think removing True Seeing is unnecessary.

1: Umberhulks are supposed to get tremorsense, which means that if you're touching the ground, they can see you and know you're there, period. Hide, MS, and invisibility are irrelevant to the creatures.

2: Every single caster that can take this form loses the ability to cast spells when they do so, making them a "hard counter" only in the fact that they can actually locate the sneaker, not actually do anything to them.

3: Every single melee character that can get access to a polymorph wand or scroll loses a great deal of defensive ability by turning into an umberhulk, making it a less than optimal form for fighting anywhere past level 12 or 13 or so.

4: This makes turning into an umberhulk a tactical maneuver with its own drawbacks- if either character turns back into their base form, the rogue can still corner sneak away.

[RedGiant]

And to my above point, Jor, you say this is crazy for a 4th lvl spell, when certainly clerics already have this as a 3rd and 4th lvl spell respectively. There are hard counters to stealth, yes, but I would argue most of these are consumable and fuel the Arelith economy.

If they use a polymorph wand, to the point of your OP, they have to shift out of shape to fight you. If they just follow you around like a bug, kill them. Stealthers can re-stealth an unlimited number of times for free, but a wand is a constant tax on the user.

I personally don't see the problem with a consumable method of TS when others exist. This rock, paper, scissors with stealthers is necessary, less they rule the world, or more likely...grief the world.
----------------------------------------
*Edit: Maybe a compromise here...if necessary...would be to give the Umberhulk blindsight, which is something I suggested long ago for bat totem instead of the nerf. This wouldn't help rogues bust quarters, but if they wanted to do skulking/spying, this would give them an option...so long as they kept their distance. This could emulate the tremorsense above.

[Apokriphos]

I think this is a good change.

True Seeing is an immensely powerful effect. It is so powerful that Arelith chose to limit it to 6 seconds unless your character has divination focuses from items or feats. Even Epic Diviners only see with True Sight for 30 seconds. No 4th level spell should have a more powerful effect then the actual spell of True Seeing itself.

To successfully stealth, a character needs to devote all of their items to hide & move silently, attempting to beat dedicated players who invest in listen or spot. Devoted Clerics and other wisdom classes can easily spot stealth classes if they devote themselves to it, with less mechanical tradeoffs.

The infinite True Seeing off an easily available wand of Polymorph flies in the face of this philosophy. Instead, it should support a character's spot or listen investment and boost a characters' skill in those, instead of nullifying whatever investment they have made. I agree that Umberhulks should get a benefit, but it should be comparable to the other forms granted by Polymorph Self. They should all be equivalent in utility, and a benefit of +20-30 Spot/Listen would be comparable to the other forms.

Lastly, many sources agree - Tremorsense is not True Sight. It is Blindsight. There is a huge difference. Tremorsense targets get an opposed will save, failing it, they cannot see their targets. http://dnd.arkalseif.info/spells/underd ... index.html

[Miskol]

To successfully stealth, a character needs to devote all of their items to hide & move silently, attempting to beat dedicated players who invest in listen or spot. Devoted Clerics and other wisdom classes can easily spot stealth classes if they devote themselves to it, with less mechanical tradeoffs.

This issue has already been discussed in prior topics. Firstly, only clerics, druids and perhaps monks will pull half-decent wisdom scores. Clerics only receive a base 2 + INT skill points per level, druids and monks receive 4 + INT. Meanwhile, rogues receive a whopping 8 + INT skill points. Innately there is an imbalance in the sacrifices each class has to make respectively. Rogues have little to sacrifice in terms of skill points, while clerics definitely have much more to sacrifice due to their innately low skill points per level.

Let's consider a fighter character for a moment. A fighter receives 2 + INT skill points per level. There is absolutely no reason for a fighter to take high wisdom. In what world could such a build ever hope to detect a rogue who could easily reach 100+ hide/move silent?

[Apokriphos]

Rogues do get more skill points. However, unlike our would-be dedicated spotter, Rogues have to invest twice; once in Hide, and again in Move Silently. Our detector class only needs one skill maximized. It is not a sacrifice, as Spot breaks disguise as well. What does Hide do when you are not hiding?

As to your second example, a Fighter class who wishes to reliably spot a thief invested in hide and move silently, they would use a Scroll of True Seeing - easily attainable at 25 lore as you pointed out - as many as needed. Rogues have far lower AB then fighters with 3/4ths progression, and Fighters often multiclass Weaponsmaster. As hide in plain sight requires 12 seconds between uses, it just takes a knockdown and a few well placed hits for our Dedicated 100 hide/ms Rogue to die to the Fighter with a simple scroll or three.

Lastly, Polymorph Umberhulk breaks immersion. It is used so often, in places like Cordor where Monsters are anathema and usually Kill on Sight. Surprisingly however, a roaming Umberhulk is ignored as if just another part of the 'monster' scenery. This alone is a good reason to change it.

[Miskol]

Firstly, rogues invest in hide and move silently because a large part of their damage comes out of sneak attack and other feats that rely on sneak attacks such as crippling strike. In order to succeed in using the basic kit of the rogue, one has to invest in hide and move silently. For a rogue, hide and move silently have both uses with PVM and PVP. On the other hand, the would-be dedicated spotter is spending skill points exclusively to detect another player within stealth.

As for my fighter example, let's not forget that (1) rogues get special grenades that can go up to 35+ reflex save with a 24/6 build - each of these grenades have devastating crowd control effects (2) rogues have lower cool down on blinding speed - this means the fighter has to not only read the true sight scroll, but catch up with a hasted rogue before the 6 seconds is up and the rogue rounds a corner. Let's say the fighter miraculously accomplishes this, then the fighter would have to (3) break the discipline of the rogue who like 99% of all other Arelith builds will be geared and dumped into discipline. And you may say "but wait! true strike potions!". Unfortunately by the time you guzzle that potion, your true sight has worn off and that rogue is long gone. But there's more! Darkness also activates sneak attack! So our fighter friend is going to need to pop an ultravision to deal with that too! Let's also not forget that a character is immune to knockdown after they've been hit with it, and prayer still exists as a save.

Lastly, I have played in Cordor for some 4 real life years now, many of those years being in the guards. I have never encountered a player in the streets in Umberhulk form, but I have seen a black and emerald dragon! Those who wish to be immersion-breaking will always find ways to do it.

[magistrasa]

I'm disappointed that the penalty to roleplay isn't being accounted for here. For spies and roleplayers focused on subterfuge, the threat of Infinite Uncounterable Trueseeing is paralytic. It kills the narrative potential that an unexpected eye in the room can provide. For some spies in certain circumstances, getting caught just one time can mean the end of the character, full stop. People have rolled and stories have ended with tragically little fulfillment, all because of an easily accessible wand. And it's something that anyone can have in their pocket, unexpectedly, for an investment of fifteen skill points or less.

Umberhulks having Trueseeing is silly. Maybe it could be interesting to give them a buff to Listen - so that they couldn't pierce a disguise and couldn't see the spy's name and may not even be guaranteed to find the hidden person (not to mention the sense would extend through obstacles, which makes way more sense for tremorsense anyhow) - but this ability is a relic of an age old mistake that ought to be cast into the fires.

[Anomandaris]

I'm disappointed that the penalty to roleplay isn't being accounted for here. For spies and roleplayers focused on subterfuge, the threat of Infinite Uncounterable Trueseeing is paralytic. It kills the narrative potential that an unexpected eye in the room can provide. For some spies in certain circumstances, getting caught just one time can mean the end of the character, full stop. People have rolled and stories have ended with tragically little fulfillment, all because of an easily accessible wand. And it's something that anyone can have in their pocket, unexpectedly, for an investment of fifteen skill points or less.

Umberhulks having Trueseeing is silly. Maybe it could be interesting to give them a buff to Listen - so that they couldn't pierce a disguise and couldn't see the spy's name and may not even be guaranteed to find the hidden person (not to mention the sense would extend through obstacles, which makes way more sense for tremorsense anyhow) - but this ability is a relic of an age old mistake that ought to be cast into the fires.

Honestly, this 1000% well said.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

I think this is a good change.

True Seeing is an immensely powerful effect. It is so powerful that Arelith chose to limit it to 6 seconds unless your character has divination focuses from items or feats. Even Epic Diviners only see with True Sight for 30 seconds. No 4th level spell should have a more powerful effect then the actual spell of True Seeing itself.

To successfully stealth, a character needs to devote all of their items to hide & move silently, attempting to beat dedicated players who invest in listen or spot. Devoted Clerics and other wisdom classes can easily spot stealth classes if they devote themselves to it, with less mechanical tradeoffs.

The infinite True Seeing off an easily available wand of Polymorph flies in the face of this philosophy. Instead, it should support a character's spot or listen investment and boost a characters' skill in those, instead of nullifying whatever investment they have made. I agree that Umberhulks should get a benefit, but it should be comparable to the other forms granted by Polymorph Self. They should all be equivalent in utility, and a benefit of +20-30 Spot/Listen would be comparable to the other forms.

Lastly, many sources agree - Tremorsense is not True Sight. It is Blindsight. There is a huge difference. Tremorsense targets get an opposed will save, failing it, they cannot see their targets. http://dnd.arkalseif.info/spells/underd ... index.html

The spell True Seeing is just a buff with no other drawbacks - I personally feel True Seeing umbrella'd the spell blindsight (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbili ... Blindsense) in its effect because with the way bioware implemented HiPS there is literally no counter to it otherwise; HiPS works successfully for an instant no matter what your stealth score is- even at -50. You may be visible half a second later, but the important part is that this breaks LoS.

Blindsight is also a 3rd level spell (http://dnd.arkalseif.info/spells/magic- ... index.html) which is originally sourced from Magic of Faerun, making it a spell specific to the world we play in no less. What an umberhulk actually gets is an extraordinary ability tremorsense (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbili ... remorsense) which should effectively notify you of someone sneaking around regardless of their stealth score, no saves (by the way- you're misreading that text; the will save harmless is for the target of the tremorsense spell, if they don't want to be affected by it- if it receives tremorsense, the creatures it detects with it do not get a save vs. it, which is why the spell text specifies "automatically")- and besides tunneling and a dig speed which lets them move through the ground (which you can't do in NWN) it's one of their key components.

I feel your sentiments about a 4th level wandable spell being easier to access than the regular spell (except the cleric domain), but I don't agree, because again, True Seeing does not hinder you in any way- there is no polymorph effect, no gear losses, no spell slot losses, etc. Unless you're under level 10, you're giving up a lot in terms of action economy and combat efficiency just to spot a stealther, who can still corner sneak away again the moment you transform back and try to engage.

I don't conceptually have anything against the idea of replacing True Seeing with something else, but I'm unsure what someone could thematically propose to augment them with that wouldn't still leave them in a position of never used due to being absolute garbo in comparison to say, the troll, for regen and high strength, or the zombie, for crit/sneak immunity until the stealther breaks stealth.

Edit: The only umberhulks I've ever seen in Cordor have been low-strength characters hauling resources/loot and not wanting to take a half hour to cross a transition. As far as being immersion-breaking, I'm inclined to cut these people some slack, since 99% of STR builds are carrying literal tons of gear on them with no visual effect or encumbrance, because "magic bags." So, "magic shape-changing" to carry heavy things is something I can overlook.

I'm disappointed that the penalty to roleplay isn't being accounted for here. For spies and roleplayers focused on subterfuge, the threat of Infinite Uncounterable Trueseeing is paralytic. It kills the narrative potential that an unexpected eye in the room can provide. For some spies in certain circumstances, getting caught just one time can mean the end of the character, full stop. People have rolled and stories have ended with tragically little fulfillment, all because of an easily accessible wand. And it's something that anyone can have in their pocket, unexpectedly, for an investment of fifteen skill points or less.

Edit2: @Magistrasa ; I have some sympathy for the RP aspect, but it's balanced on the scales by the fact that in NWN you can literally hide undetected while bumping into someone's face, regardless of LoS and concealment and lighting effects, which isn't how it's supposed to work in RP or mechanically - if we're to delve into the RP aspect of a stealther's suffering for this, when was the last time a stealther politely accommodated the fact that they were in a well-lit, open room with nowhere to hide, and simply revealed themselves before anything sensitive was discussed "because RP?" I can name plenty of instances that they haven't, which is why casting True Seeing or changing shapes into something with the ability before opening sensitive doors is practically a mandatory way of life on the server.

[chris a gogo]

Stealth is often the most broken and abused mechanic in the game.

I think the single most annoying example ive ever seen is where I had a group discussing some clandestine plans in a locked back room of a seedy inn and at the end a high level rogue to drop out of stealth sitting in a chair at the same table.

You could say kill the rogue but that is meaningless as the rogue now knows all the plans and goes and tells those your plotting against regardless of any actions you take, just because they are high level and abuse a system and your group is low level and up and coming.

Having a hard counter to such awesome role play is a good thing.

[Nitro]

I'm disappointed that the penalty to roleplay isn't being accounted for here. For spies and roleplayers focused on subterfuge, the threat of Infinite Uncounterable Trueseeing is paralytic. It kills the narrative potential that an unexpected eye in the room can provide. For some spies in certain circumstances, getting caught just one time can mean the end of the character, full stop. People have rolled and stories have ended with tragically little fulfillment, all because of an easily accessible wand. And it's something that anyone can have in their pocket, unexpectedly, for an investment of fifteen skill points or less.

Umberhulks having Trueseeing is silly. Maybe it could be interesting to give them a buff to Listen - so that they couldn't pierce a disguise and couldn't see the spy's name and may not even be guaranteed to find the hidden person (not to mention the sense would extend through obstacles, which makes way more sense for tremorsense anyhow) - but this ability is a relic of an age old mistake that ought to be cast into the fires.

On the flip side, the investment required to not have your quarter cleaned out one item at a time by a stealther sneaking in when you open the door is really high now. A lot of builds can't get the spot/listen scores to oust stealthers, and 25 lore is not an insignificant amount on many mundane builds. And that's not mentioning PvP where the stealther has carte blanche to win, escape or do anything they want against anyone without the 60+ points in their detect skill of choice because of how easy it is to hips or cornetsneak after the TS runs out after a single round.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

Hide and move silent gain bonuses from dexterity. AC is granted by dexterity. AB is granted by dexterity because rogues receive weapon finesse for free. Rogues have to surface to do major sneak attack damage, but they can also gain epic dodge, high tumble to avoid attacks of opportunity. Blinding speed is now on cooldown and offers additional AC and kiting potential. All these combined enable them to swoop in and back to stealth with ease. So in effect, I don't really see the problems you've highlighted. Furthermore, rogues have grenades and unique consumables. Prior to this proposed change, I would say many players already agree that rogues are in a good state - they do not need more of an advantage.

If you're a monstrous race, frankly if you're spotted on the surface it wouldn't matter if you had a bluff score of 150, Arelith still has a "what you see is what you get" rule and you would be open to attack. As for being hard to obtain, it has been mentioned in past discussion topics that hide/move silent has far more utility than listen/spot.

Truly important meetings are held on player-owned ships, with anti scrying measures activated where rogues cannot enter. The point of having an accessible way of detecting stealth specialists is so they cannot do a stomp dance in front of players and expect not to be caught.

I agree with most of what you are saying except the high tumble avoiding aoo makes no sense at all. Tumble is mostly used for ac. 30 ranks for 6 ac to be precise (which str builds often do) which makes ones dex score irrelevant for avoiding aoo because its only a dc 15, which low tumble accomplishes.

[Flower Power]

I'm disappointed that the penalty to roleplay isn't being accounted for here. For spies and roleplayers focused on subterfuge, the threat of Infinite Uncounterable Trueseeing is paralytic. It kills the narrative potential that an unexpected eye in the room can provide. For some spies in certain circumstances, getting caught just one time can mean the end of the character, full stop. People have rolled and stories have ended with tragically little fulfillment, all because of an easily accessible wand. And it's something that anyone can have in their pocket, unexpectedly, for an investment of fifteen skill points or less.

Umberhulks having Trueseeing is silly. Maybe it could be interesting to give them a buff to Listen - so that they couldn't pierce a disguise and couldn't see the spy's name and may not even be guaranteed to find the hidden person (not to mention the sense would extend through obstacles, which makes way more sense for tremorsense anyhow) - but this ability is a relic of an age old mistake that ought to be cast into the fires.

Honestly, this 1000% well said.

Any spy that's reliant on stealthing into a quarter after someone in order to get their information is a pretty terrible spy. Even with Polymorph Self in its current state, there are plenty of ways for sneaks and spies to get their scoops - they just have to get creative and (gasp) actually engage in interactive roleplay with other individuals rather than just pressing a button and watching other people interact instead.

Polymorph Self is fine. At its worst use, it ends up catching some very lazy and uncreative spies. At its best use, it ends up revealing stealthers - to the user. Who is in Umber Hulk shape, unable to effectively do anything about their presence (because even if they were to drop shape and attack, it's very easy to regain stealth, even without HiPS.)

The real problem is that it's not only possible, but not even that difficult, to boost your stealth up to such obscene lengths that you are virtually undetectable to anyone except very niche builds that have 100% built and geared themselves around catching you. Stealth bonuses on items and armor and plentiful and large, with rogues able to net themselves +3-5 Hide/MS on multiple pieces of genuinely optimal gear (significantly larger than detection bonuses on viable equipment, which is to say: there is no optimal/PvP-friendly equipment with significant Spot/Listen bonuses that I am are of.) On top of that, with the nerfs to KD & Disarm, rogues are relatively free to stack yet more Hide/MS on their enchanted gear. It's frankly kind of silly.

It's a zero-sum game, though, if Spot/Listen becomes a viable and readily available for more than just a few niche builds to be able to spot epic sneaks, then sneaks become worthless. As it stands, the people who end up taking UMD (usually at L27-30) can now make use of wands to catch (but not actually deal with in any meaningful capacity) stealthers - I think we'd be taking Arelith in a very bad direction to remove effective counterplay against stealthers.

[Nobs]

Cast a level 1 spell for 20 listen and cast a level 3 spell for 10 more listen thats 30 from 2 spells + gear + wisdom + a epic feat for 10 more = spotting all the sneaks in game.
Listen is so dope for spotting as it wil help you find sneaks around corners and other objects in game.

But yes this way you need to do a little more then go beetle mode but i dont think thats a problem as the sneaks have to gear and feat for it aswel.

Or you know just do 25 lore and scroll.


In other words a deticated spotter wil always find the dedicated sneak on this server.

[ReverentBlade]

Umberhulk is balanced. We don't need to keep nerfing UMD users. Wrong direction. Spotting takes inordinately more resources and specialized builds than sneaking, who don't sacrifice the rest of their abilities to MAD in order to have it. A good corner sneaker knows how to work around Umber Hulk. Short-sighted decision.

[ReverentBlade]

Also, suggesting skill bonuses to the form is dumb. If you're a specialized spotter, you don't need them. If you're not, all the bonuses in the world aren't going to help you. Stealth vs. Detection is largely a binary mechanic.