COT love

[mourisson1]

That part about the charisma is weird lol. It's like let's just ignore the secondary stat for the class

Charisma just gives you few rounds of Divine Wrath, for CoT. I wouldnt rank it up, i would just get some from buffs, to get few extra rounds.

But really, here's the truth as I see it. All these comparisons are done with divine wrath UP, which is weird because it lasts from the wiki 3 + 1/2 CoT level + Charisma mod in rounds and then it has a huge cooldown period. If I was a COT, I wouldn't move at all without my wrath, but a fighter can just go with +5 AC -5 ab compared to wrath.

Divine wrath duration is usually long enough for a PvP (personal experience), and I dont think we should compare the classes without their short buffs up, thats like saying Divine Might and Shield shouldnt count for build strength, because they dont last too long.

Yeah the champion gets saves, and the DR isn't dispellable whereas a fighter with lore can get greater stoneskin or premonition scrolls which exceed the DR for the COT wrath bonus.

CoT can get that too with lore. Saves do matter quite a lot.

Summary, it seems it's totally dependent on divine wrath, which seems totally short duration and huge cooldown. Right now it totally seems one and done. Fighters can just go go go.

Fighter without saves can just go go go until first CC hits them and they are done. CoT can just go go go and screw DC spells.

[Aeralad]

Yeah but if in PvE a COT is like "Nah guys you go ahead I have to wait a few minutes." That's probably a huge part of the game heh.

[mourisson1]

I personally treat PvE like: Well, I can do this with basically any build, and i can just get a group big enough to storm through it and it doesnt matter what build i do have, because PvE isn't really much challenging here.

That's why i really consider build viability in PvP mostly, because when your build is good for PvP, it can do every Arelith PvE if you know what you are doing. (Not solo, most likely)

[Aeralad]

... and i can just get a group big enough to storm through it and it doesnt matter...

IDK about that part. I agree but I disagree as well. Eh, we'll see what happens.

[Void]

That part about the charisma is weird lol. It's like let's just ignore the secondary stat for the class

A CoT with 8 charisma will get significantly better saves than a fighter. And then you can just gulp a potion of eagle's splendor.

The only reason not to take it is divine RP implications. (which is why I don't play CoT)

[Hinty]

Comparing CoT with Divine Might/Shield to a Fighter without is a distinctly uneven playing field.

For CoT To get Turn undead to use those abilities they have to take a class with it. A Fighter can do that just as easily so a Fighter can have as much use from them as a CoT with the exact same cost/benefits.

The only difference is that CoT has three long cooldown abilities that get only a small benefit from higher charisma. Frankly the CoT is better off dumping points into Con for HP or Int for skill points than they are Charisma. A few extra HP on heals, a little more damage on Smite, a couple more rounds on Wrath when you have to wait 10 minutes or so to use them again is just not worth getting a +8 charisma modifier.

Frankly I like that too. Paladin and Blakguard already benefit from high charisma. It is nice to have a Martial/Religious class that low charisma builds can take, although it might be nicer if they benefited from something else. Tempted to say swap Charisma to Wisdom for their abilities. It would make for more interesting build options and reduce the number of builds that dip paladin/bg.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

So, based on the responses here I'm going with no one thinks its a good idea to give the CoT all of those boosts. What about just turn undead then, so divine champions in other alignments can be on par with LG ones?


:Edit addition

I realize that LG would stop going 7 pally and start going 8 fighter, since its a bit more total damage, but I always saw divine champions as more of a fighter kit then a pally one. Plus pure pallys are still better, people just like new and shiny ideas.

[Ork]

Giving CoTs the turn undead feat would break the class unfortunately. Giving access to divine might & shield would open up some pretty ridiculous combinations. I'd recommend dipping paladin to grab those feats as 10 fighter/4 paladin/16 CoT gives you what you're looking for.

[three wolf moon]

Divine Champion/COT is already a great class.

[Zavandar]

i'm not very for or against cd reduction to wrath. it's an extremely powerful ability.

i do think cd reduction should be tied to class investment if it is introduced. something like:

5 cot = 8 min cd
10 cot = 7 min cd
15 cot = 6 min cd
20 cot = 5 min cd

that's the only buff i can kinda sorta get behind for cot. it otherwise doesn't need any buffs

[BaRKyy]

I think COT is alright-ish. The only buff it needs in my opinion is instant cast on Divine Wrath similar to Rage or Blinding Speed. That would make people actually use it more often at the least.

I like Zavandar's suggestion, as for the rest.. Not really. It's in a fine spot in terms of strength right now. I've played several and never had an issue personally, though I'm sure others differ on that.

Again, remove cast point on Divine Wrath. Not much of a buff, but will make the class a hell of a lot nicer to play.

[RedGiant]

Giving CoTs the turn undead feat would break the class unfortunately. Giving access to divine might & shield would open up some pretty ridiculous combinations. I'd recommend dipping paladin to grab those feats as 10 fighter/4 paladin/16 CoT gives you what you're looking for.

Out of curiosity, since we agree all the turn undead goodness is already possible with the requisite dip, what are these game-breaking class combinations? This isn't snark, I genuinely want to know.

i'm not very for or against cd reduction to wrath. it's an extremely powerful ability.

i do think cd reduction should be tied to class investment if it is introduced. something like:

5 cot = 8 min cd
10 cot = 7 min cd
15 cot = 6 min cd
20 cot = 5 min cd

that's the only buff i can kinda sorta get behind for cot. it otherwise doesn't need any buffs

I could totally get behind this, even if there were no other change. I love the scaling for investment.

[Zavandar]

it does NOT need to be an instant action

[Dr. B]

Giving CoTs the turn undead feat would break the class unfortunately. Giving access to divine might & shield would open up some pretty ridiculous combinations. I'd recommend dipping paladin to grab those feats as 10 fighter/4 paladin/16 CoT gives you what you're looking for.

Out of curiosity, since we agree all the turn undead goodness is already possible with the requisite dip, what are these game-breaking class combinations? This isn't snark, I genuinely want to know.

I'll try to make this as plain as I can:

Let's start with the observation that the highest damage output currently possible comes from CoT builds that take Paladin dips for Divine Might, along with some combination of Fighter, WM, or PDK, and that those builds are already very strong defensively, sacrificing only 3 AC from not being able to max out Tumble and affording huge saves.

Now, if CoT were able to access Divine Might/Shield without having to dip into paladin, then that means it would be able to take an alternative third class, resulting in builds that are even more powerful.

On the one hand, this would allow it to dip into rogue for Tumble, UMD, Evasion, and a Sneak Attack, while still picking up Divine Might and Shield, along with Fighter or PDK levels for even more damage. You would basically be taking some of the highest damage-dealing builds on the server and giving them extra AC, Evasion, UMD, and up to +3d6 sneak attack.

Or you could dip into Bard to max out Spellcraft, essentially making your save vs. spells utterly impregnable unless you roll a 1.

That's one set of options. Alternatively, it allows for options that deal even more damage than is already possible. Fighter/WM/CoT with Divine Might and Epic Weapon Spec is going to be game-breaking. So would a Fighter/PDK/CoT, again with Epic Weapon Spec and Divine Might.

Do you see the problem here?

[AstralUniverse]

What I actually said was a CDR buff at lvl 20, so it kicks in only for the no-umd-tumble Cots, but I guess Zavandar's scaling is alright. What bothers me more is the duration. 3+cot lvl+ cha. that's 10 round at 15 cot lvl for most Cots. I suggest something like 0 + (cot x2) + cha, paladin/bg lvls count as x1. It does not need to be an instant action because it's a COMPLETELY BROKEN idea (thinking about your rogue/pally/cot with blinding speed sneaking on me with divine wrath up, no thank you bro)

[garrbear758]

EDIT: Double posted

[garrbear758]

Out of curiosity, since we agree all the turn undead goodness is already possible with the requisite dip, what are these game-breaking class combinations? This isn't snark, I genuinely want to know.

The first 5 that immediately come to mind

Fighter WM CoT
Fighter Rogue CoT
Rogue WM CoT
Monk WM CoT
Fighter Monk CoT

...or just read what Dr. B said a few posts up. He explained it very well.
[/quote]

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

Alright, so lets assume that the 18 more damage one would get on crits (six on a regular hit) from a F/WM/COT would be game breaking, and ignore the fact that to build for that one would have to trim on strength and con to get there, lowering ac, hps, and ab/damage, so we can get to the crux of my point. What's a good solution to the fact that LG has the advantage over everyone when it comes to this sort of build? They are the only one that can Voltron into albeit glass cannon damage dealing machines, which seems lopsided. Sure, one could replace pally with cleric, but you not only lower your base ab you also can only take 5 wm or 10 cot, since you need to get to level 11 before you can take your first CoT level. It seems silly to have something gated like that behind alignment, especially considering (and maybe you guys disagree but you are silly if you do >_>) pally 26/27 rogue/bard x is still a superior all around build.

[Void]

Alright, so lets assume that the 18 more damage one would get on crits (six on a regular hit) from a F/WM/COT would be game breaking, and ignore the fact that to build for that one would have to trim on strength and con to get there, lowering ac, hps, and ab/damage, so we can get to the crux of my point. What's a good solution to the fact that LG has the advantage over everyone when it comes to this sort of build? They are the only one that can Voltron into albeit glass cannon damage dealing machines, which seems lopsided. Sure, one could replace pally with cleric, but you not only lower your base ab you also can only take 5 wm or 10 cot, since you need to get to level 11 before you can take your first CoT level. It seems silly to have something gated like that behind alignment, especially considering (and maybe you guys disagree but you are silly if you do >_>) pally 26/27 rogue/bard x is still a superior all around build.

Non-good has necromancy, warlocks, and non-lawful-good has druids.

I think that the idea that "LG can do that, anyone should be able to do that too" is wrong.

Additionally, 6 more damage is not 18 more damage on crit, but up to 30 more. Because scythe is a thing.

[Adhemar Leddra]

one would have to trim on strength and con to get there

What?

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

Alright, so lets assume that the 18 more damage one would get on crits (six on a regular hit) from a F/WM/COT would be game breaking, and ignore the fact that to build for that one would have to trim on strength and con to get there, lowering ac, hps, and ab/damage, so we can get to the crux of my point. What's a good solution to the fact that LG has the advantage over everyone when it comes to this sort of build? They are the only one that can Voltron into albeit glass cannon damage dealing machines, which seems lopsided. Sure, one could replace pally with cleric, but you not only lower your base ab you also can only take 5 wm or 10 cot, since you need to get to level 11 before you can take your first CoT level. It seems silly to have something gated like that behind alignment, especially considering (and maybe you guys disagree but you are silly if you do >_>) pally 26/27 rogue/bard x is still a superior all around build.

Non-good has necromancy, warlocks, and non-lawful-good has druids.

I think that the idea that "LG can do that, anyone should be able to do that too" is wrong.

Additionally, 6 more damage is not 18 more damage on crit, but up to 30 more. Because scythe is a thing.

Sure, scythe is a thing.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

one would have to trim on strength and con to get there

What?

Where else is the 14-16 starting charisma going to come from? You need 13 dex and int for a weapons master, so its not there.

[Void]

one would have to trim on strength and con to get there

What?

Where else is the 14-16 starting charisma going to come from? You need 13 dex and int for a weapons master, so its not there.

Among possible starting stat splits for a human (doesn't matter which is which) there are:
14/14/14/14/14/8
OR
16/14/14/14/10/8
Now, add two +2 bonuses from ECL gifts, and that turns into
16/16/14/14/14/8 and 18/16/14/14/10/8 respectively.
Then there's +7 bonus from leveling up and (two) +10 bonuses from gear....

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

So what you are saying is people would just go 8 charisma and live with the +5 bonuses at the cost of a few feats? I honestly hadn't thought about that angle, since I tend to default on 15 or 16 charisma starting on my divine stuff builds, but it does change my math some.

[CptJonas]

So what you are saying is people would just go 8 charisma and live with the +5 bonuses at the cost of a few feats? I honestly hadn't thought about that angle, since I tend to default on 15 or 16 charisma starting on my divine stuff builds, but it does change my math some.

Actualy...yeah...they do it..
And I personaly dont like it...I would add stat based requirments on taking classes....atleast for caster classes etc...
Like for example you are going to dip Ranger? Get that 11 Wis what ranger needs to start as that class....