Shaman Feedback

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xanrael
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Re: Shaman Rage Synergy

Post by xanrael » Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:13 pm

garrbear758 wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:59 pm
Spriggan Bride wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:36 pm
I don’t want to take away from anyone’s enjoyment of the tribal barbarian shaman mix but I hope it’s not considered the primary shaman build with any future class changes.

For one thing the tribal barbarian in general is just weird to RP around. Players toting around two silent, nameless NPCs of a playable race that are almost universally ignored or not treated as actual sentient beings by PCs including the player themself. Not saying get rid of the class, but leave it to the rare tribal barb and encourage it to be the default shaman thing.

For another it doesn’t seem like the intended concept. Maybe I’m wrong but was a shaman/tribal barbarian/ranger throwing axes really what the dev who created it had in mind? Seems like a loophole some min-maxing builder came up with and that the dev would sigh at to me and that the intended concept was more straightforward barbarian.

Like I said if you enjoy it, great, I am not saying take the build away from anyone but I would much rather see shaman changes oriented towards casters or non-tribal battle shamans. I like the idea of the class and I don’t think they lack for power at the end but if you aren’t hurling axes I’m finding them a real chore to level compared to other casters.
I am the dev who created shaman.

1. We specifically had to code in tribal scaling on shamans. I've also seen some people use it to great effect in RP. If you haven't, go spend some time with "Tom the Wand Merchant" in Guldorand.

2. There isn't one specific build we were aiming for. Pokemon master, caster shaman, and battleshaman were all intended to be viable options, and I'm sure there are several more that exist or could exist. Battleshaman badly needs some help, but the other build options are in a decent place and the goal is to buff battleshaman without buffing the others.
Seems like adding it as an additional AB bonus when raging that only applies if wielding a melee weapon could potentially work. Won't help zen-archers or monks then. Might need to be a bit lower bonus as it would be an instant action.

Papi J
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Re: Shaman Rage Synergy

Post by Papi J » Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:58 am

Yeah maybe a scripted AB bonus when wielding a melee weapon would help. Have it scale with shaman level. Maybe 1 every 6 levels? Makes a generic 27 shaman 3 barb gain 4 ab, which would put the average one at about 48-50~ Ab? Seems pretty cool.
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Sombricimos
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Re: Shaman Rage Synergy

Post by Sombricimos » Fri Jun 11, 2021 8:23 am

Warning : Random thought. Probably not balanced nor feasible.

I've been thinking of the Blood frenzy spell, which is pretty useless for now.
Making it some sort of Divine power but in its own way.

Like.... Swaps the STR and WIS of the caster for the spell duration...?
I don't know, really.
But this spell could use some update and making it a something for battle shamans would probably be like a Two birbs with one stone kind of thing

Hinty
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Re: Shaman Rage Synergy

Post by Hinty » Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:13 pm

Blood Frenzy was basically a "This spell gives you Barb Rage" spell, how about it becomes a "for the duration ALL your shaman levels count as barbarian for rage" or "gain barb rage as if you were a pure class barbarian of your level"

Ping14
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The Shaman Experience

Post by Ping14 » Tue Jan 18, 2022 10:30 pm

First "New" Class I ever played since I came back. Always was a fan of the Shaman RP.
That said, it may be biased to a point, but I'll try to be as objective as possible
Build is a STR/WIS, Sha/Barb/Rngr, Zen Archery

The Shaman Spell list:
  • Even before all the changes, I love the mix of arcane and divine spell casting. It fits the RP of the class, depending on your spell choices
  • Now on to the newer spells given. Divine Power - A great addition to the class. Allows you to ignore the 4ApR threshold on building, but would rather still stick to 4ApR due to Divine Favor. Not really a fan of the usual cleric wind up (DP, Battletide, Favor) as it loses much tempo. It can reach short term 52 AB with all three (DP, DF, WC), and 47 without DF.
  • War Cry is suprisingly good as a control spell in the middle of a fight. Enchantment is a poor choice for shamans anyway, but even without it, this still see alot of use in my playthru. Its great when wanting to thin out aggro by inflicting fear as well as the +2 AB/DMG buff.
  • Stonehold/Freedom - this is the staple. If ranged, you can add Spike Growth and Creeping Doom, the damage racks up quickly, just be mindful of your party-mates summon. They will hostile on you in every nonparty friendly AoE.
  • Most of control and damage shamanic vibe (Inferno, flesh to stone, drown, halt undead, etc)
  • One of the few characters that can go without runes - the cheapest ones to run since you have aura of vitality (granted you have transmutation focus), is an easy +8 to STR/DEX/CON
  • Can go evo and pick up Hellball-GR, but with limited good EVO spells (No Bigby line), you're better off specializing in another. Thinking the combo, GR-Hellball-Grease-Creeping-Spike Growth is the counterpart of the GR-Hellball-Acid Fog-Incendiary-Cloudkill of an arcanist, you don't get to set this up with timestop though.
  • Harm can be great, depends on your build, but the slot is so coveted by other spells that you might end up not picking it.
  • Natural access to concealment is only thru Visage, not as good as improved invis, but Ok-ISH enough. (It makes most sense though since shaman canonically can walk the fine lines of the spirit and material realm). Though you'd rather dust yourself or read a scroll of it if you really want concealment
Summons:
  • Standard summons works, but I think shamans shines best with Necromancy. Together with Tribal synergy, x3 undead with x2 tribal warriors, can almost always make a meat shield on the front lines
  • Interesting take can be a new stream- spirits/shades. But that's more of a suggestion. Undead works, kinda- for RP purposes. Nature spirits- elementals can give enough flavor.
  • No planar conduit - I can understand the reasoning here. Since with Tribal Barb Synergy, two more high AC summons can just break it.
  • Tribal barb with Ancient Water Elemental is so much value when combined. (+3 natural regen of tribal barbs, +3 aura regen of Water Elly, +8/9 Regen from Renegerate.... total of 14-15 Regen per round is great to have). Just buff them up prior (hrs/level spells with a few select turns/level spells. AC of both summons can reach to 45 with a shielding pot which is enough, but without, only 41 which is good enough for PvE since you have about 1k HP pool in just summons alone - and you have MASS HEAL.
  • Always note the -cd on your fetch companion, this is the most vital -cd in your repertoire. Best used in repositioning and blocking mobs
  • EDK - Buggy when faced off with HUGE creatures. Any dragons against your EDK will slap it to oblivion. Best used for blocking bigger chokepoints - Or in dire need of help. Can also be awkward to summon RP wise. But its another summoning spell in your book.
  • Elemental Swarm - used whenever Ancient Elly dies, 6 total henchmen can be buggy, but its great DPS wise.
  • Summon AB maxing out at 35, which is acceptable at PvE, add AC malus when rooted, the damage skyrockets drastically, allowing you to clear most rooms with a control spell alone.
Barbarian synergy:
  • Requires a dip but gives you access to rage/tribal barb - a fine enough trade off (a bit of dispellability)
  • The recent Barb synergy gives you 3AC/AB max with 16CON. If you're given a cookie, just eat and savor it. Doesn't make the class broken, but it helps.
  • Never underestimate 21 Tribal Barb. They will carry you in almost every scenario PvE or levelling wise. Just give them some loving in terms of buffs.
  • BUG - Tribal Barb and its interaction with leadership seems off. Counted ApR, base epic tribals have 6ApR (dual wield, +improved two weapon). With 40 leadership, they should reach 7ApR. Counted it per flurry, they are still doing 2 attacks per flurry on the first attack. With haste, they are doing 3attacks on first, then 2 on the next. Unsure if its intentional though, leaving tribals on henchmen leadership perk
PvP:
  • Yep, you're going to suck at it. Terrain is your friend. Narrow hallways are best when against melee, but you're not always going to have that.
  • EDK is only used just to block targeted spells. AoE you have to face tank yourself. Just hide under the dragon.
  • Not much to say here really, its the lowest tier of PvP I think. You're a druid without wild shape, you're a cleric without divine classes and high AC, you're a barbarian without terrifying/mighty/thundering rage. Its just too much mix of everything.
  • 2-hander rage shaman might be better, but its a watered down version of a well built divine 2hander.
  • People will always assume that you have -scry even if you don't go for it, which is, in itself a great tool. It adds to the flavor of the class.
PvE:
  • Works great, you're not feeling safe all the time though, since you only have average AC, 48-52 at best without expertise.
  • Positioning is key when going Zen shaman: Run, Control Spell, block with summons. Rinse and repeat. A dynamic and fun playstyle all in all.
  • You have all control spells you will ever need, you can hit Reflex, Will and Fortitude all at once. Though Fort saves spells are usually single target spells.
  • Enemies immune to paralysis is the bane of your existence. You have to rely on sunburst for blind if you can even hit them with it. Otherwise, just hope and pray that your many summons can deal with them. Rack up the damage with Spike Growth, Inferno, Storm of Vengeance to aid with mob clearing. (Golems, Treants, Undead)
  • You can solo epic dungeons, but still with a risk... a far bigger risks than most optimized build even if you go for the most optimized build of a shaman. (Maybe less risk if you go for 24Sha/3Ranger/3Monk since it gives you AC to do a bit of frontlining)
  • Never had issues with SR... yet
All in all, its a pleasant experience playing the class. Its not great PvP or PvE... but its fun to play, and is viable enough for most epic content. Its the most enjoyable class to play by far, and it really lets you live the summoner fantasy. Never alone in dungeon crawling as you always have summons to spare (granted you took tribal barb). And you can even swing a weapon or throw an axe/dart.


Bottom line:
The amount of tricks the shaman has thru spell casting alone coupled with tribal synergy makes it a fun class to play. Its not broken in any sense though, and honestly find it weak: can't face tank like a real barb, can't AC tank like a real cleric, can't wildshape like a real druid, can't support like a real bard. But shaman can do all of those to some extent, and have a trick or two for every scenario and survives rather well. Its not broken, doesnt need to be... it just is really fun to play.
Last edited by Ping14 on Wed Jan 19, 2022 8:08 pm, edited 5 times in total.

Duchess Says
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Re: The Shaman Experience

Post by Duchess Says » Tue Jan 18, 2022 11:08 pm

[*] War Cry is suprisingly good as a control spell in the middle of a fight. Enchantment is a poor choice for shamans anyway, but even without it, this still see alot of use in my playthru. Its great when wanting to thin out aggro by inflicting fear as well as the +2 AB/DMG buff.
I'd actually like to see more enchantment spells on shamans. Why shouldn't they be able to dominate person for example? That seems like a very shaman-y thing to do, thinking of Caribbean "voodoo zombies" that are more or less mind-controlled subjects.

Ping14
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Re: The Shaman Experience

Post by Ping14 » Wed Jan 19, 2022 12:52 am

Duchess Says wrote:
Tue Jan 18, 2022 11:08 pm
I'd actually like to see more enchantment spells on shamans. Why shouldn't they be able to dominate person for example? That seems like a very shaman-y thing to do, thinking of Caribbean "voodoo zombies" that are more or less mind-controlled subjects.
I think I'd leave domination shenanigans to arcanists. Its the usual method of grinding anyway for solo arcanist. Epic enchant, epic conjure.
Dual dominated creatures with elly in tow (or vamps/mummies)

Giving too much perk to shaman spell casting can take out the flavor in others. While tempting to even give it mass haste due to the sheer number of creatures affected by the shaman's summon alone, I'd still leave it to arcanists to have that perk.

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Re: The Shaman Experience

Post by Duchess Says » Wed Jan 19, 2022 1:30 am

Ping14 wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 12:52 am
Duchess Says wrote:
Tue Jan 18, 2022 11:08 pm
I'd actually like to see more enchantment spells on shamans. Why shouldn't they be able to dominate person for example? That seems like a very shaman-y thing to do, thinking of Caribbean "voodoo zombies" that are more or less mind-controlled subjects.
I think I'd leave domination shenanigans to arcanists. Its the usual method of grinding anyway for solo arcanist. Epic enchant, epic conjure.
Dual dominated creatures with elly in tow (or vamps/mummies)

Giving too much perk to shaman spell casting can take out the flavor in others. While tempting to even give it mass haste due to the sheer number of creatures affected by the shaman's summon alone, I'd still leave it to arcanists to have that perk.
Maybe you would, maybe I wouldn't. It's a feedback section, let people express their opinions without shutting them down.

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Paint
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Re: The Shaman Experience

Post by Paint » Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:08 am

I went for a more 'pure caster' shaman archetype, so my experience is different here, but I actually went Shaman/Loremaster specifically so I could pick up hellball/gruin without having to pick up Evo using the loremaster evo secret. When it comes to PVP, you're really looking to shut down your opponent before they have a chance to move so against higher HP targets, I can confirm that you're toasted. You need to bait out -pray before you can go in for the kill, but elemental swarm is actually a pretty nice replacement for EDK in a pinch. Earth elementals are great at playing interference and baiting AoOs to stall melees. Plus since you're a shaman, they're basically free lunch because you get like. I don't know. 8 casts of them? Harm and PW:Kill are great spells and I don't think I'd trade them for anything. They're just too useful.

One thing to note, though. Consistently, I find that there's little to no reason to grab ESF: Conjuration on shaman unless you really want -yoink. Let me explain: ESF: Conjuration doesn't buff Elemental Swarm,(More information on this on the wiki, but if you want foci buffs to affect Summon Creature IX and Elemental Swarm beyond the summon tier increase, you have to pick up three levels of cleric and get animal domain or something. It's a little silly.) and Elemental Swarm is basically Shaman's planar conduit, except that, as mentioned above, you can cast it a lot. Between that and AoV, you won't miss PC. I used to run EDK, but I found EDK to be pretty lackluster because the dragons tend to glitch out and earth elementals play pretty good interference, making EDK feel. I don't know. Like a wasted feat. I really do hope that EDK gets looked at some time. It might be better if it was reworked or replaced with something more reliable. It's not like you're using them for kill pressure. And if you -are- using them for kill pressure, stop.

In PVE, I don't often run into encounters that I feel like I can't solve, even solo. I do run into encounters where things feel a little sweaty, though. You just have a lot of spells that are great for support and locking people down as a shaman and it happens to translate pretty well to a PVE powerhouse. There's a reason that for awhile Shaman was the go-to 1-26 roll class. It basically plays itself when you play it right.

As for the Shaman's spell list, I honestly think it's in a good place as-is right now? You have plenty of options and a lot of variety for how to play and what to prioritize. I do think that there is virtually no reason to take ESF Enchantment or ESF Illusion on Shaman right now unless you're hinging on one specific gimmick, but that's fine? Not every spellcasting class should be good at every spellcasting thing. Shrug.

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Re: The Shaman Experience

Post by Kenji » Wed Jan 19, 2022 12:13 pm

I'm currently playing a Battle Shaman/Barbarian. Since the update on Divine Power and Divine Favor along with War Cry, Battle Shamans have gained significant AB. These new spells certainly added more to the "windup", but it also shifted the 25/5 split into 27/3 which allows easier building for the battle variant as well as being more prevalent in the PvP scene (not by much).

The main selling point of Shamans remains them being powerful summoners as well as potent crafters by default. Battle variants still rely on their summons as the AC is still relatively pitiful.

Mechanics aside, I found myself a bit aimless when it comes to my character's RP concept for the shaman. The spell sources aren't as well defined as other casters such as Wizards, Sorcerers, Clerics, or Favored Souls. Shamans are given so many angles and the spells are diverse enough that almost anything goes.

I'm very interested in what your RP concepts are and what are your approaches to Shaman RP in general, be it from canon sources or a more personalized homebrew approach.

malcolm_mountainslayer
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Re: The Shaman Experience

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:11 pm

Kenji wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 12:13 pm
I'm currently playing a Battle Shaman/Barbarian. Since the update on Divine Power and Divine Favor along with War Cry, Battle Shamans have gained significant AB. These new spells certainly added more to the "windup", but it also shifted the 25/5 split into 27/3 which allows easier building for the battle variant as well as being more prevalent in the PvP scene (not by much).

The main selling point of Shamans remains them being powerful summoners as well as potent crafters by default. Battle variants still rely on their summons as the AC is still relatively pitiful.

Mechanics aside, I found myself a bit aimless when it comes to my character's RP concept for the shaman. The spell sources aren't as well defined as other casters such as Wizards, Sorcerers, Clerics, or Favored Souls. Shamans are given so many angles and the spells are diverse enough that almost anything goes.

I'm very interested in what your RP concepts are and what are your approaches to Shaman RP in general, be it from canon sources or a more personalized homebrew approach.
Being an undefined divine caster, i see it like a ranger where you could have relation with nature and, or be taking advantage of it. Both can be an undefined amount relation with your religion.

I been thinking of doing a slightly leaning evil, but just mostly chaotic, battleshaman commited to the Furies (Talos, etc) rather than a cleric/favour soul that tends to specialise in one deity. Ibfeel shaman has that broad deity pantheon feel the way a druid would be pro several nature deities (everyone is pantheistic but a druid isn't a cleric).

The shaman have spells from divine and arcane list is amazing for rp feel of more intuitive caster soceities like chulta or how goblin casters are often called shamans. We probably would have had less druids in arelith goblin history if we had the shaman class which I think is good because druids + goblins related to maglibuyet don't mix as well imo.

But yeah people often overlook how shamans are less feat tight than other divine casters.

It's mixed feelings* that the cleric boons that were recently added were the wind up ones. I approve its offense, but maybe they could have been done passive/long versions (not as strong but no wind up) as one of the awesome things for barbs is lack of wind up. So in pvp we be using wind up time to greater breach instead or just nonwind up and catch them by surprise. Also would free up for more non buff casting which i think would be good for the class vibes and mechanically.

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fulminea
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Re: The Shaman Experience

Post by fulminea » Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:30 pm

Kenji wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 12:13 pm
I'm very interested in what your RP concepts are and what are your approaches to Shaman RP in general, be it from canon sources or a more personalized homebrew approach.
I played a shaman for 1 day, here is what I used.

Shamans tune into the Etheral Spirits of the world surrounding them. This is a great article about the 3.5 Shaman:
https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Shaman_%283.5e_Class%29

The concept of the "Journey" they describe in that article kinda reminded me of Aborigine spirituality, so I looked into that stuff. Here is an article by some weird institute but it sums it all up pretty efficiently:
https://www.aiprinc.org/aboriginal/

Personally this gave me great ideas for my 1 day Shaman. Hope it gives some fun ideas.

TooManyPotatoes
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Re: The Shaman Experience

Post by TooManyPotatoes » Wed Jan 19, 2022 4:51 pm

Kenji wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 12:13 pm
Mechanics aside, I found myself a bit aimless when it comes to my character's RP concept for the shaman.
I honestly cannot comprehend people who say things like this. Your character concept should be simple and have a specific aim. Here is a template you can use for virtually any character build:

"I was summoned into these lands with no memories, no background, no stories. Every day the voice of [INSERT DIETY/NATURE SPIRIT HERE] calls to me the same thing. "Go forth and complete the blessed writwork. Gather 1 million gold."

You have a predefined aim and scope to be influenced by the world during your time. If you reach the goal and decide you like the character you get to keep them. If you don't like them, you have met all the conditions for an award.

Good luck out there!

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Re: The Shaman Experience

Post by Spriggan Bride » Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:32 pm

I've played two shamans, one a peasant hedge mage who was extremely superstitious and one a new agey intellectual who was full of made-up pseduoscience BS about the way the cosmos worked. I actually loved both characters but didn't enjoy the class. I didn't do throwing axes on either as they're low strength races and it just seemed like I was standing around and waiting for summons to finish attacking all the time. I dunno!

It seems a bit wide open if you look at the spell list but I think your options narrow quickly... Conjuration vs Necromancy focus takes your summons and a few offense spells down one path or other, are you doing barb or not (and if so tribal? zen or melee?), you almost always want transmutation, that may leave one more focus in evocation or abjuration, possibly. Plus being a spontaneous caster you only get a handful of higher level spells which will also be decided by your focuses. So it's really not that scattered and is not that different than favored soul or sorcerer where the limitations shape the character.

RP wise I like how open to interpretation shaman is so hopefully more tools will still maintain options instead of narrowing them... You can really get weird with a shaman in a way druids or clerics don't really encourage. Shamans don't have to care about balance and aren't agents of a strictly defined religion. I mean if someone has a path in mind that'll be as good as barbarian as a dip but different that would be awesome but I think sometimes Arelith devs have an idea that the one popular concept or build to play is the only way that matters and cut off other options.

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Re: The Shaman Experience

Post by Kenji » Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:57 pm

malcolm_mountainslayer wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:11 pm
Being an undefined divine caster, i see it like a ranger where you could have relation with nature and, or be taking advantage of it. Both can be an undefined amount relation with your religion.

I been thinking of doing a slightly leaning evil, but just mostly chaotic, battleshaman commited to the Furies (Talos, etc) rather than a cleric/favour soul that tends to specialise in one deity. Ibfeel shaman has that broad deity pantheon feel the way a druid would be pro several nature deities (everyone is pantheistic but a druid isn't a cleric).

The shaman have spells from divine and arcane list is amazing for rp feel of more intuitive caster soceities like chulta or how goblin casters are often called shamans. We probably would have had less druids in arelith goblin history if we had the shaman class which I think is good because druids + goblins related to maglibuyet don't mix as well imo.

But yeah people often overlook how shamans are less feat tight than other divine casters.

It's mixed feelings* that the cleric boons that were recently added were the wind up ones. I approve its offense, but maybe they could have been done passive/long versions (not as strong but no wind up) as one of the awesome things for barbs is lack of wind up. So in pvp we be using wind up time to greater breach instead or just nonwind up and catch them by surprise. Also would free up for more non buff casting which i think would be good for the class vibes and mechanically.
There is often an emphasis or focus on a singular deity for most where it is always refreshing to see a character that I interact with reference multiple different deities, even if it may be contained in a subgroup of pantheons be it the Triad, the Furies, or Bane and his concubines.

My battle shaman mainly revere the Furies, as well, but would not shy away from other Nature deities such as Shaundakul, Mielikki, Lurue, or etc where appropriate. Embracing polytheistic pantheons has always been a thing for individuals in Faerûn and, personally, I wish to see it more often in my interactions with other characters.

A paladin of Helm says a quick prayer to either Umberlee or Valkur when boarding a ship for a voyage across the seas. An Ilmatari tries to sneak into a besieged city to help the needy prays to Mask for aid in being undetected. These are little things that add more to the flavor when certain portfolios of deities are recognized.
fulminea wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:30 pm
I played a shaman for 1 day, here is what I used.

Shamans tune into the Etheral Spirits of the world surrounding them. This is a great article about the 3.5 Shaman:
https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Shaman_%283.5e_Class%29

The concept of the "Journey" they describe in that article kinda reminded me of Aborigine spirituality, so I looked into that stuff. Here is an article by some weird institute but it sums it all up pretty efficiently:
https://www.aiprinc.org/aboriginal/

Personally this gave me great ideas for my 1 day Shaman. Hope it gives some fun ideas.
These are great resources that I will be adding to my personal repertoire.
TooManyPotatoes wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 4:51 pm
I honestly cannot comprehend people who say things like this.
Get a dictionary if you lack comprehension.
Spriggan Bride wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:32 pm
I've played two shamans, one a peasant hedge mage who was extremely superstitious and one a new agey intellectual who was full of made-up pseduoscience BS about the way the cosmos worked. I actually loved both characters but didn't enjoy the class. I didn't do throwing axes on either as they're low strength races and it just seemed like I was standing around and waiting for summons to finish attacking all the time. I dunno!

It seems a bit wide open if you look at the spell list but I think your options narrow quickly... Conjuration vs Necromancy focus takes your summons and a few offense spells down one path or other, are you doing barb or not (and if so tribal? zen or melee?), you almost always want transmutation, that may leave one more focus in evocation or abjuration, possibly. Plus being a spontaneous caster you only get a handful of higher level spells which will also be decided by your focuses. So it's really not that scattered and is not that different than favored soul or sorcerer where the limitations shape the character.

RP wise I like how open to interpretation shaman is so hopefully more tools will still maintain options instead of narrowing them... You can really get weird with a shaman in a way druids or clerics don't really encourage. Shamans don't have to care about balance and aren't agents of a strictly defined religion. I mean if someone has a path in mind that'll be as good as barbarian as a dip but different that would be awesome but I think sometimes Arelith devs have an idea that the one popular concept or build to play is the only way that matters and cut off other options.
When a couple of devs and I discussed Shaman as a class, the first thing we recognized is how much "eggs in one basket" we have put upon barbarian dip for Shamans. Monk dip being the other relatively viable choice for Shamans should be looked into for synergistic interactions, as well. Given that the vision, or the lack thereof, for Shamans is still forming among the devs, it wouldn't hurt to hear some of the opinions and ideas from players who have delved into the class with their own interpretation and support them mechanically via design.

Of course, designing and executing take time to realize. It isn't by choice that some of us cut off other options, but, rather, working on something that is already present is much easier than making something from scratch. I mean, not all of us are like Kalopsia who can rework 3 different classes or like Garrbear and Aniel who introduced multiple base classes in such a short span of time.

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Paint
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Re: The Shaman Experience

Post by Paint » Wed Jan 19, 2022 9:14 pm

There's a whole IG story about it called Ester is an Idiot, but when I took on Shaman, I really wanted to dive into the roleplay of the class in a way that really made it the centerpiece of my roleplay. Ester started out as a ranger before I really knew what I was doing on Arelith and didn't pay too much attention to the mechanics. RP had been forcing her in an interesting direction for awhile, so I decided to roll with it, and I -remake'd her as a shaman.

The essential story was that she suffered a wound that she couldn't recover from completely for lack of immediate healing. Ester's always had difficulty accepting her own limits, so when she had new ones put on her, she didn't handle it well. Every time she pulled a bowstring back, a pain'd arc through her shoulder. She couldn't run as fast or for as long as she used to. Etc etc. This frustrated her greatly, and she started to lean on what she called her 'ranging tricks,' a lot more, elaborating on them with personal flair and going in directions that seemed natural to her. Unbeknownst to her, she was pushing into a font of power she was unprepared to deal with, and it nearly cost her, and some of her friends, their lives.

It was some of the most fun roleplay I've ever had, and most of the 'why is Ester a shaman' and the 'how' was established on Arelith. Sometimes I wish more people played their characters as fools and novices because of this. It's so easy to want to play a cool, established wizard who is brilliant and knows exactly what they want, or the grizzled mercenary who has seen battlefields upon battlefields before arriving on the shores of Arelith. There's RP value in that, but there's value in the struggle of coming to terms with what your character is, what their limits are, and what they're becoming, too. I think if you play it off right, you can make a story that's not just personally satisfying, but something that gives the other characters and players around to sink their teeth into, too.

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Re: The Shaman Experience

Post by Spriggan Bride » Wed Jan 19, 2022 9:46 pm

A ghosts/spirits path with reskinned undead and illusion spells up to Weird could be fun. Maybe an exorcist path based on abjuration and with turning synergy or ability to imbue a weapon with dispels or banishment on hit. I think a divination and enchantment mentalist with domination spells could work as civilized shamans could be snake-oil salesmen or fortune telling con artists (hey, they already have feeblemind!)

Those are shaman RP concepts I'd be interested in off the top of my head. All of those would probably look to bard, ranger or even specialist dips instead of barb or monk.

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Re: The Shaman Experience

Post by Kenji » Thu Jan 20, 2022 12:46 pm

Paint wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 9:14 pm
There's a whole IG story about it called Ester is an Idiot, but when I took on Shaman, I really wanted to dive into the roleplay of the class in a way that really made it the centerpiece of my roleplay. Ester started out as a ranger before I really knew what I was doing on Arelith and didn't pay too much attention to the mechanics. RP had been forcing her in an interesting direction for awhile, so I decided to roll with it, and I -remake'd her as a shaman.

The essential story was that she suffered a wound that she couldn't recover from completely for lack of immediate healing. Ester's always had difficulty accepting her own limits, so when she had new ones put on her, she didn't handle it well. Every time she pulled a bowstring back, a pain'd arc through her shoulder. She couldn't run as fast or for as long as she used to. Etc etc. This frustrated her greatly, and she started to lean on what she called her 'ranging tricks,' a lot more, elaborating on them with personal flair and going in directions that seemed natural to her. Unbeknownst to her, she was pushing into a font of power she was unprepared to deal with, and it nearly cost her, and some of her friends, their lives.

It was some of the most fun roleplay I've ever had, and most of the 'why is Ester a shaman' and the 'how' was established on Arelith. Sometimes I wish more people played their characters as fools and novices because of this. It's so easy to want to play a cool, established wizard who is brilliant and knows exactly what they want, or the grizzled mercenary who has seen battlefields upon battlefields before arriving on the shores of Arelith. There's RP value in that, but there's value in the struggle of coming to terms with what your character is, what their limits are, and what they're becoming, too. I think if you play it off right, you can make a story that's not just personally satisfying, but something that gives the other characters and players around to sink their teeth into, too.
Thank you for sharing, it was a fun read.
Spriggan Bride wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 9:46 pm
A ghosts/spirits path with reskinned undead and illusion spells up to Weird could be fun. Maybe an exorcist path based on abjuration and with turning synergy or ability to imbue a weapon with dispels or banishment on hit. I think a divination and enchantment mentalist with domination spells could work as civilized shamans could be snake-oil salesmen or fortune telling con artists (hey, they already have feeblemind!)

Those are shaman RP concepts I'd be interested in off the top of my head. All of those would probably look to bard, ranger or even specialist dips instead of barb or monk.
It's one thing to recognize the differences in mechanics and build RP off of that, it's another to RP a character concept and then find a suitable class to represent said RP. To some extent, RP and mechanics affect one another, but they are never fully independent of one another nor are they completely defined by one another. If someone claims to be a magus and does not have levels in any of the casting classes (ie, my character does not see the "magus" cast any spells once), my character and I would be hard-pressed to believe the title beyond recognizing that the magus may be bluffing, lying, or just dressing up as one.

To that end, rangers, bards, and specialists as classes are easier melded into most concepts because of how passively they provide mechanically: be it for the skill dumps or the extra great/epic spell focus feat from Ranger. Barbarian for Shamans specifically have a rage button that is easily recognized, Monk on the other hand has a more subtle requirement of Lawful-only and movement speed boost.

It's still too early to say, but we can start giving out certain synergies and interactions for shamans with other classes and make that a specific theme just for shamans: Synergy with other classes just with a small dip.
  • Barbarian:
    Synergy already exists, therefore we don't need to go into further details
  • Monk:
    Catered to caster/summoner shamans with the boost in AC
    We can look into unarmed and/or Ki Strike interactions, allow shamans to qualify for 2/3 of the monk level progression.
    This means with a 27/3 split, it can be considered a 21 monk and therefore qualify for numerous things such as monk SR, monk Ki Strike 3 (which can then take Ki Strike 4 and 5, allowing a different form of battle shaman)
  • Ranger
    1/3 Ranger levels count towards CL vs Dispel
    2/3 Shaman levels count towards Ranger level progression: this means access to dual-wield stuff (not DWMastery) and animal companion (might have to change animal companion to enable at level 3 instead of 6 for rangers)
    This allows Shaman/Rangers to have a functional animal companion, probably not PvP competent but viable enough for RP flavor and PvE purposes, perhaps.
  • Bard
    1/3 Bard levels count towards CL vs Dispel
    1/3 Shaman levels count towards Bard song progression

    This CL vs Dispel interaction will also allow various different splits such as 23 Shaman/3 Ranger/4 Monk (Quarterstaff build) or 24 Shaman/3 Bard/3 Barbarian (Skald build) and open up a wider variety of Shaman builds.

    The 24/3/3 builds will have the equivalent of 11 bard or 19 ranger levels for bard song or animal companion with 25 CL vs Dispel (26 CL vs Dispel for both Bard and Ranger dips)
    The 27/3 Bard/Ranger dip builds will have the equivalent of 12 bard or 21 ranger levels for bard song or animal companion with 28 CL vs Dispel
  • To Note:
    The most viable and PvP competitive Shaman build out there is the Greater Breach/Harm/PW: Kill combo shaman/monk right now. These changes will no doubt empower said build further and likely put GBreach/Harm/PW: Kill shamans on top to the point where NEP is quickly stripped and Harm/PW: Kill combo easily kills a target with no easy counter. (Likely already is)

    The solution can be simple: Move Harm to 8th level spell to contend slots with GBreach or remove Harm from Shaman spell list altogether. Where 1 outlier Shaman build that outshines everything else is toned down, dozens of more different shaman builds will emerge from this change. Perhaps some will claim that Shamans will become even worse after this change, but it may also be for the better.
With just the above 4 basic class interactions, I can already see multitudes of builds emerging for shamans, and with it, multitudes of RP concepts are realized. Of course, all of this will still have to go through vigorous number-crunching as well as internal discussion with the team.

These discussions really help shape Shaman into its own identity whether you're all aware of it or not. The team has always been reliable and full of talented and creative individuals. However, many of them are also limited by their time and energy. The shaman discussion is something some of us have put off since many of us have projects of our own to consider.

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Re: The Shaman Experience

Post by Yvesza » Thu Jan 20, 2022 3:57 pm

Having made a shaman and leveled one to 30 just recently I can say that the latest changes actually made a pretty big difference for the class, craft wand added a good amount of quality of life and especially made PvE just that much better (Being able to make breach wands for zones where creatures like to acid sheathe was such a big difference)

I do sort of feel like there's not enough necromancy support to justify taking mummy dust even though shamans are sort of pushed towards it, the lack of NEB and NEP means that the difference between swarm and the mummies isn't so high as you'd think unless you go ESF: Transmutation for the big buffs and then... Well, the swarm just does so much damage that the difference in toughness starts to become negligible.

The third option, conduit is weirdly unobtainable for shamans until their late level dips but when you do gain access to it things absolutely change and while it lacks innate SR you're one of the few classes that can give your conduit all of the buffs it needs to work without worry. I tried taking ESF: Transmutation along with ESF: Conjuration and there's honestly not much content that it can't deal with, even if it's a pain when your single cast per day doesn't quite cut it. (Prior to the conduit changes I'd have skipped it for a lot of reasons, but as a side note I love the new conduit.)

As for PvP? Honestly shaman is in a better position than I think people might realize, it has access to a great spell list with the potential for good DC's and I feel like it has a genuine chance against just about anything save for perhaps a few things.
(Breaches make it difficult to find room, shaman has a lot of ways to create zones of denial but with no woodland stride / mindblank / long duration clarity they're very reliant on FoM and good saves to avoid getting caught in their own hazards)
Also WoF is a big problem and you're leaving a lot to fate with your conjured creatures SR, but that's part of what you pay for with conduit (A much lesser issue if you decided to take the mummy dust route and one I can see people favoring even if it makes for a less comfortable build overall, but you're very prone to bullying your own summons by accident)

If I had to compare shaman to the other casters that I've played? (Wizard, Cleric, Favored Soul) I'd say that it's the most enjoyable, the recent changes even if they looked small on paper made a big difference to the quality of life and really let shaman settle into a similar niche as wizards often settled into.

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Re: The Shaman Experience

Post by Skarain » Fri Jan 21, 2022 2:42 pm

I have played my Shaman so far as a "Spirit Shaman" of sorts; thinking that they draw their might from the spirits of the departed or otherwordly entities on the border between life an death.

While a "Ghost" stream would be nice (I intentionally did not take ESF Conj or Necro at level 1 so I can swap later if need be), I have made due so far with elementals (Primarily Air ones) and imagining that the spirits they call to serve them have an easier time to assume forms steeped in the elements.

So far a positive experience in other regards. Plays a little like a summoner druid (as summoner shaman), with more QoL (Breach, Haste) while missing the ability to Shapeshift and tank. More spell casts more than compensates.

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Re: The Shaman Experience

Post by Kenji » Sun Jan 23, 2022 2:57 pm

Yvesza wrote:
Thu Jan 20, 2022 3:57 pm
Having made a shaman and leveled one to 30 just recently I can say that the latest changes actually made a pretty big difference for the class, craft wand added a good amount of quality of life and especially made PvE just that much better (Being able to make breach wands for zones where creatures like to acid sheathe was such a big difference)

I do sort of feel like there's not enough necromancy support to justify taking mummy dust even though shamans are sort of pushed towards it, the lack of NEB and NEP means that the difference between swarm and the mummies isn't so high as you'd think unless you go ESF: Transmutation for the big buffs and then... Well, the swarm just does so much damage that the difference in toughness starts to become negligible.

The third option, conduit is weirdly unobtainable for shamans until their late level dips but when you do gain access to it things absolutely change and while it lacks innate SR you're one of the few classes that can give your conduit all of the buffs it needs to work without worry. I tried taking ESF: Transmutation along with ESF: Conjuration and there's honestly not much content that it can't deal with, even if it's a pain when your single cast per day doesn't quite cut it. (Prior to the conduit changes I'd have skipped it for a lot of reasons, but as a side note I love the new conduit.)

As for PvP? Honestly shaman is in a better position than I think people might realize, it has access to a great spell list with the potential for good DC's and I feel like it has a genuine chance against just about anything save for perhaps a few things.
(Breaches make it difficult to find room, shaman has a lot of ways to create zones of denial but with no woodland stride / mindblank / long duration clarity they're very reliant on FoM and good saves to avoid getting caught in their own hazards)
Also WoF is a big problem and you're leaving a lot to fate with your conjured creatures SR, but that's part of what you pay for with conduit (A much lesser issue if you decided to take the mummy dust route and one I can see people favoring even if it makes for a less comfortable build overall, but you're very prone to bullying your own summons by accident)

If I had to compare shaman to the other casters that I've played? (Wizard, Cleric, Favored Soul) I'd say that it's the most enjoyable, the recent changes even if they looked small on paper made a big difference to the quality of life and really let shaman settle into a similar niche as wizards often settled into.
Necromancy as a whole needs a review in its direction in terms of both mechanics and design.

First we look at its spells in general: unless it is spammable (TFs with Evo, Warlocks, or even GSF feat spells for Wizard/Sorc) a one-off spell that does some damage or applies debuffs to a creature while fighting 4 or 5 creatures per encounter 100s of encounters in one session, these spell slots to encounter ratio is just not feasible for most damage spells.

Summons, if they are durable, on the other hand are great for this particular encounter design. Takes one spell slot and then the rest goes to buffing said summon has become the staple approach to almost all things casters.

That begs the question for Necromancy casters: if the spells are not feasible for long-term PvE use, then what about PvP?

Besides Mummy Dust summons, there’s also Harm spamming. But that spell, in particular, doesn’t need ESF Necromancy to reach its full potential, but Death cleric domain and good enough touch attack AB, and breach to remove NEP.

The necromancy spells often have counters such as NEP or restoration to remove the malus incurred from failing a save or SR on those necromancy spells. If one can choose, would you rather use Storm of Vengeance/Cloudkill/Tentacles/etc for a persistent AoE that stuns or slows creatures if they fail the save more than once or a one-off from one spell slot? They both have counters, yes, but the difference remains that most necromancy spells are a one-time effect and not persistent.

This leads to many of us finding “necromancy casters” wanting, and they all default to summoning mummy dust and that’s about it.

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Re: The Battle Shaman Experience

Post by Kenji » Wed Feb 09, 2022 11:15 pm

In regards to the recent Shaman changes:
- Various dips provide various bonuses
- the addition of Divine Power and Divine Favor

I would like to know if anyone shares the following sentiment with me in general and perhaps add more of their thoughts to the matter.

Specific to the Battle Shaman archetypes:
The Divine Power/Divine Favor, while making battle shaman variants more viable and competitive, they make the battle shaman gameplay very similar to that of a battle cleric/FS. Saving all the level 1/2/4/5 spell slots just to haste/divine power/favor for every other encounter. The disparity of not having the 2 or 3 spells up is very obvious. While very powerful for a short duration, it also felt too similar to that of a cleric/FS.

The various dips are also encouraged to be dipped at levels beyond pre-epic in order to fulfill the Divine Power APR. This is largely due to the design of both spells and how CL works.

This made pre-epic gameplay similar to any caster builds where they utilize summon and become a passive summoner in the backline until around level 11 with access to the full arsenal of spells pertaining to battle shamans.

The windup before every encounter is again very similar to that of the battle cleric/FS gameplay and one that I would like to see changed in eventuality. This leads to the next part of the discussion -

More mechanical changes
I’m aware of the fatigue players are experiencing with fast-paced changes to a class, especially if it also fundamentally changes the build process as well as the gameplay. To that end, this discussion is here to make sure everything is hammered out just right before any further changes are made. I am here to ask existing shaman players and competent builders to chip in on the following ideas:

Disclaimer: this will be edited throughout many posts, so there may be a disjunction between this post and subsequent discussion posts. This is also a brainstorming post, none of the details are finalized nor are these changes in progress, do not roll or change your current character build in anticipation of this discussion.

Mechanical Changes:
  • Divine Power/Divine Favor removed from the spell list
    - an estimated loss of 10 AB, 5 magical dmg, and 1 APR for 2 minutes
  • Shaman levels now passively regain pre-epic BAB in the form of soft AB if multiclassed into full BAB classes (barbarian, ranger, fighter, Paladin, etc.) at any level - be it pre-epic or epic.
    This does not increase APR (must multiclass into 4 levels of full BAB class and reach 16 BAB before epic for the extra attack)
  • dip classes now provide more synergy CL for the first 2 levels, then switch to 1/3 CL per level at the 3rd level and beyond. Different multiclass will stack for the extra 1/3 CL calculation purposes.
  • Blood Frenzy will be repurposed into a 2 round / CL spell that increases the AB by 2 and magical damage by 2 along with various other buffs/debuffs (+2 will, -2 ref, -2 AC). This spell cast from items will increase/decrease the aforementioned stats by 1.
Here are a few mock builds and their CL calculations:
23 Shaman / 3 Barb / 4 Ranger:
28 CL, 21 pre-epic BAB, 4 passive AB, around 52 to 53 AB capable of dual-wielding and rage
CL Calculation:
23 shaman + 2 barb + 2 ranger = 27 base
Barb 3 and Ranger 3 - 4 are 3 levels extra, so an extra CL there.

20 Shaman / 6 Fighter / 4 Monk:
26 CL, 21 pre-epic BAB, 4 passive AB, extra AC from monk and fighter levels, evasion from monk 4
CL Calculation:
20 shaman + 2 Fighter + 2 Monk = 24 base
Fighter 3 - 6 and Monk 3 - 4 are 6 levels extra, so 2 extra CL there

Design note:
This will allow battle shamans to build more freely even pre-epic. The extra APR will not come from a spell, but from how the battle shaman is built. If anything, they WILL want 4 levels of full BAB class to reach 16 BAB pre-epic to gain that extra APR.

This will probably be the last attempt from me to make any more drastic battle shaman changes - path introduction and spell list changes notwithstanding. I haven't forgotten the caster shamans and something is being cooked up just for them.
Last edited by Kenji on Thu Feb 10, 2022 8:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Shaman Experience

Post by Ping14 » Thu Feb 10, 2022 3:38 am

Kenji wrote:
Wed Feb 09, 2022 11:15 pm
  • Divine Power/Divine Favor removed from the spell list - an estimated loss of 10 AB, 5 magical dmg, and 1 APR for 2 minutes
  • Blood Frenzy will be repurposed into a 3 round / CL spell that increases the AB by 3 and magical damage by 3 along with various other buffs/debuffs (+2 will, -2 ref, -2 AC)
Divine Favor and Power rarely sees use aside from difficult mobs and bosses, atleast for me (Its true that play style is rather similar with battle cleric, since this is how I played my previous battle cleric... build at 4ApR, cast favor when things gets hard, divine power when still not enough, full with battle cry when going for bosses.

Blood frenzy getting the rework is great. But is this for shaman only? That spell is wandable and potion-able, a +3 AB and +3 Magic at 3rounds/CL (with effective CL of 7... CL of 10 for LM) will be a great addition to martial classes, and perhaps even be too good (this is like a combo of DF and DP, and lasts even longer than any of those wanded/scrolled/potioned).

Also, spell selection, 2nd Circle Shaman is almost always filled with Zoo spells. The slots taken by Divine Favor/Divine Power are best I think. Circle 1 Blood Frenzy extended bleeds out to circle two though. Circle 4 Blood Frenzy bleeding to Circle 5 on Extended sits comfortably on the two lesser used circle (Circle 4 and 5). This comment may seem a bit self serving, hence take it with a grain of salt. Where ever you place it though, I'd definitely find a way take it since its /THE/ battleshaman spell.
Kenji wrote:
Wed Feb 09, 2022 11:15 pm
This means a shaman 4 can dip barb 3 or ranger 3 to become "full BAB" and gets 6 effective CL, though spells are still limited to shaman level progression
I'm not sure if I interpreted this right... "Full BAB", you mean the build Sha24/Barb3/Rngr3 (4 out of 6 full bab classes taken pre epic) which have 21 BAB will now have the FULL 25 BAB that a pure classed level 30 martial class have? Or is it like this:
A Sha24/Barb3/Rngr3 (4 out of 6 full bab classes taken pre epic) will have the same ApR and BAB as the same class combination but with full bab classes taken at epic levels (IE: 27-29 usual skill dump).

If shaman gets Full BAB, when multiclassed to any 4 level martial class... it looks good, maybe too good. Its like an automatic persistent Divine Power minus the 18 STR.

If it is the latter, then it is more of a convenience in building. Like instead of making a Sha23/Barb3/Rngr4. With last bit of ranger taken at level 29 for discipline skill dump, one could make it 24/3/3 instead, taking the last 3 ranger levels at 27-29 or 28-30. It allows for "some" flexibility, but arelith's 3-in-a-row same class is so restrictive that I'd rather take the 23/3/4 path just to get my ranger boons early.
Last edited by Ping14 on Wed Feb 16, 2022 1:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Shaman Experience

Post by MRFTW » Tue Feb 15, 2022 5:45 pm

One thing I've noticed is that with animal empathy now quite easily useable to fill out your companion roster, tribal barb shaman just kind of seems like a waste other than for RP flavour. I'm not saying it doesn't chug through PvE with the best of them, because holy moly, it does, but the power ceiling seems noticeably lower than the new shaman dips.

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Shaman and planar conduit

Post by jomonog » Fri Mar 11, 2022 10:39 pm

Is shaman keeping planar conduit or it is being removed? I'd like to start a shaman but not if it is going to lose planar conduit half way through levelling it up.

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