Shaman Feedback

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xanrael
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Re: Shaman Feedback

Post by xanrael » Sun Apr 19, 2020 7:22 pm

Barring a few classes that have RP enforced upon them (example: Paladin code), I want the consistency to be towards the RP concept the player came up with.

I honestly really dislike the need to know the mechanical class of the concept.

PC1: I'm a guard of this city and...
PC2 in tell: So what class are you? Rogue! Rogues can't be guards they have to be thieves!

PC1: You have intruded upon our coven and interrupted our ritual, for...
PC2 in tell: X caster class doesn't fit with witches!

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CosmicOrderV
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Re: Shaman Feedback

Post by CosmicOrderV » Sun Apr 19, 2020 7:47 pm

All art is based off human experience. It speaks to grander narratives and themes found throughout life. Trying to not base a class off historical mythology is a futile exercise that will just make an unconvincing class. It can have a novel spin, but at the end of the day, the core concept is grounded somewhere in history.

That said, I would be sad if that bit about paths is true. I thought they seemed like a solid way to implement novel spins. Having entirely different classes for archer ranger vs base ranger, for example, seems strange. Can you take levels in both?

Also ive literally never seen the circumstance that xanreal described. Can anyone else corroborate this experience? Its pretty easy to flub casters (shadow mage sneaking into mystan circles for example). Almost seems meta-gamey to use tells like that.

Also seems a bit inconsistent to be okay with a strict adherence to concept with one class (paladin) but not others?

A lot of these points just seem like non-issues.

Im eager to see what fun stuff is conceived to bring out the flavor, and improve the power, of shamans!
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magistrasa
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Re: Shaman Feedback

Post by magistrasa » Sun Apr 19, 2020 7:55 pm

xanrael wrote:
Sun Apr 19, 2020 7:22 pm
I honestly really dislike the need to know the mechanical class of the concept.
Those examples are not relevant to what I'm talking about. What I'm talking about is this:

Enforcing thematic consistency and adherence to lore is necessary for maintaining the integrity of the setting. If that's up for debate, we have a serious problem on our hands.

What I'm talking about with regards to defining the scope of the shaman's theme and abilities has to do with bringing it in line with every other class. We know where wizards get their power from. We know where clerics get their power from. We know where warlocks get their power from. But a shaman? "These forces can range from spirits, tribal deities, or even the planes themselves. Their relationship with their source can also vary widely, from either a willing bond with the source to a parasitic relationship." What are the limitations of this power, and what is its inherent nature? It's so accommodating to different character concepts that you can have two shaman characters next to each other and have literally absolutely nothing in common with how they roleplay the inherent abilities of their class.

Clarifying and enforcing class themes is also completely normal for Arelith. Palemasters are required to have pursued the art themselves, and cannot say it was inflicted upon them unwillingly. Warlocks are in the same boat. Ur priests aren't permitted on the server. Blighters are a 5%. I've had friends receive counseling from DMs because their backstory didn't fit the lore of the setting, or that in order to play out their idea they would need a 5%.

In spite of how strongly worded all this might seem, I am very much on the fence about how to approach the shaman from this lens. Largely because I can't decide what parts of what I've described in this post is healthy for the server or not. I'm ideologically opposed to alignment restrictions, but I highly value thematic consistency - so as alignment restrictions exist and will continue to exist on the server, I feel like there ought to be consistency in their implementation. The irony here is so strong that it's cured my anemia. That said, I'm not going to talk much about the topic past this post because I don't want it to be too much of a focus of conversation. It's probably not a very constructive course to go down, especially here.

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xanrael
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Re: Shaman Feedback

Post by xanrael » Sun Apr 19, 2020 8:21 pm

magistrasa wrote:
Sun Apr 19, 2020 7:55 pm
Enforcing thematic consistency and adherence to lore is necessary for maintaining the integrity of the setting. If that's up for debate, we have a serious problem on our hands.
My point is that I don't think the shaman class has to be narrowed down to only supporting one theme. I can understand some things being diametrically opposed to a class like paladins having succubi girlfriends or druids hugging undead. I see shamans much like a spellsword that says on the wiki: "The following is a view on spellswords that may help you put the class in perspective. It is not the only way to play them or explain their abilities, at all." If an elf wants to play a spellsword as a bladesinger and a human more as a magus then more power to them IMO.

I'd rather see the class remain open to multiple themes as opposed to asking Devs to add 5 other classes that are basically the same as shaman but have a bit different lore and require them to edit 400 scrolls, wands, and pieces of equipment to accommodate them. This isn't PnP where you can just open splatbook #243 and get to playing something immediately.

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Aardra
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Re: Shaman Feedback

Post by Aardra » Sun Apr 19, 2020 8:55 pm

On that point I agree.

My shaman is a more-or-less "civilized" woman whose "spirits" are [redacted] in nature. Not every shaman needs to be Mumbo Jumbo from Banjo-Kazooie. We have elementalists, diviners/oracles, spiritists, animists, healers, poisoners, etc. all of whom can adhere to different moral strictures and draw from different thematic and aesthetic wells.

Consistency in theme and lore is necessary for the setting, but if we're going down a path that says "you must dip x class to be viable" then we're just forcing every shaman into the same build, aesthetic, and playstyle. There's a reason 99% of druids are pure CON based.
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Wuthering
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Re: Shaman Feedback

Post by Wuthering » Sun Apr 19, 2020 9:45 pm

I feel like a lot of this hand-wringing about shamans shoud actually be about druids, they seem like much more a restricted concept but we're so used to them we don't ask questions any more. Shamanism can and should be almost anything they can justify. It could be primitive ancestral worship based on bloodline, it could be rituals passed down and learned almost like a cleric, it could be a Burning Man style neo-shaman who's educated and lives in civilization but studies and practices ancient rituals (I'm using that one, don't steal it!). I feel like a lot of people have an idea shamans have to be "witch doctors" like you'd see in borderline racist 1940s cartoons but there's a ton of potential if you think outside the box.
magistrasa wrote:
Sun Apr 19, 2020 7:03 pm
-scry is similarly one of the more disappointing special abilities one can have.
Amen to that. It's cool and I love -scry, don't get me wrong, but it's difficult to justify the investment on a character who's building to be competitive and in daily use it is a frustrating ability (especially when failure burns 5 components, at least shamans don't suffer from that...)

Splintering Arelitj into four servers also makes it even more difficult to pull off.

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Za-Lord~s Guard
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Re: Shaman Feedback

Post by Za-Lord~s Guard » Sun Apr 19, 2020 10:16 pm

magistrasa wrote:
Sun Apr 19, 2020 7:55 pm
Those examples are not relevant to what I'm talking about. What I'm talking about is this:

Enforcing thematic consistency and adherence to lore is necessary for maintaining the integrity of the setting. If that's up for debate, we have a serious problem on our hands.

My personal taste is that shaman have a very interesting niche as working with spirits. Spirits themselves being a varied and diverse group, and the specific spirits a shaman works with shape aspects of that shaman's abilities/outlooks.

I think keeping spirits loosely defined is best, because otherwise we would risk forcing shaman into a singular concept that kills off the interesting diversity that comes being what is effectively the tribal-leader equivalent of a warlock; but instead of fiends or evil fey, you're bargaining with/bullying a variety of entities for power (which could theoretically include fiends or fey).

Considering their limited (virtually non-existent) access to spells relating to outsiders, it could be worth snipping out the parts pertaining to fiends (and the potential for celestial spirits) and focusing on more primal earthy types of things that would be close to tribal societies.

Drawing from the planes themselves also feels a little more in the cleric's ballpark (since that's effectively where a cleric of a demonlord or devil is getting their juice from), and diminishes the shaman's uniqueness a bit.

To say again in my tastes, the shaman's bread and butter is working with a large number of lesser spirits to gain a cumulative total of power that could be compared to a druid or cleric's capability.
"I don't believe in fairies!" - Harry Dresden, the Dresden Files

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CosmicOrderV
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Re: Shaman Feedback

Post by CosmicOrderV » Mon Apr 20, 2020 12:27 am

Very nicely put.

I could see some bard aesthetic in there too, just as the oral traditionalists and lore keepers of their respective lands.

The african Griot comes to mind, along with more nordic inspirations behind shamans. The shaman then, as a loose natural spiritualist and wise-person, I would definitely see as primarily pulling from Druid, but probably shares conceptual ground with both Bards and Clerics, creating its own fun niche around the-spirits-that-be.

Just isn't there, mechanically, yet!
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Re: Shaman Feedback

Post by CosmicOrderV » Wed Apr 22, 2020 6:12 am

I thought occurred to me that I thought would be fun to spit-ball here.

A shaman using Rage, what does that look like? Be it from Barbarian synergy, or if that doesn't stick with the class, maybe from a class unique buffed version of Blood Frenzy.

Well if the class is focused on the-spirits-that-be, I imagine shaman Rage might manifest a little differently from a normal barbarian's, because of somehow utilizing said spirits. Maybe the rage channels the spirits for a boost to physical prowess! Perhaps the shaman engages in some form of joint possession! In such case, it'd be cool if their eyes had some sort of ethereal glow, like monks/warlocks, but only while raging. This to sort of signal to others, "Hey, this isn't normal rage. There's something otherworldly going on."

Alternatively, but along these lines:
Maybe at special levels, when the shaman casts Blood Frenzy, they also gain the effects of ghostly visage, and later ethereal visage. That would truly suggest they're physically channeling the-spirits-that-be!
Aodh Lazuli wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:22 pm
I, too, struggle to know what is written in books without first reading them.

Xarge VI
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Re: Shaman Feedback

Post by Xarge VI » Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:59 pm

I think it would be appropriate to give Shamans Dominate Person or Dominate Monster because of this:

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Hishna

Wuthering
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Re: Shaman Feedback

Post by Wuthering » Wed Apr 22, 2020 7:17 pm

It's impossible to pull this off as they currently stand mechanically, but thematically I wish there was a way for shamans to become pale masters. Zombification and mummification seem right up their alley.

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Re: Shaman Feedback

Post by serono » Thu Apr 23, 2020 6:32 pm

I took the feats craft wand and craft potion on the PGCC.
But its currently its not possible to craft wands or potions with the shaman.

The combat log says: "* Failure - Item creation not successful! *"

Are there plans to allow the feats to work?

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Re: Shaman Feedback

Post by Za-Lord~s Guard » Wed Apr 29, 2020 1:52 am

Shaman epic spell focus abilities require spell components, even though the class uses piety for the rest of its spellcasting.
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garrbear758
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Re: Shaman Feedback

Post by garrbear758 » Wed Apr 29, 2020 4:17 am

serono wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 6:32 pm
I took the feats craft wand and craft potion on the PGCC.
But its currently its not possible to craft wands or potions with the shaman.

The combat log says: "* Failure - Item creation not successful! *"

Are there plans to allow the feats to work?
That's just a pgcc issue. They work on the real server.
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Re: Shaman Feedback

Post by CosmicOrderV » Wed Apr 29, 2020 7:29 pm

Had another interesting thought that may be inspiring.

The rashemi witches are one of the best examples of shamans (that I know of) in the forgotten realms.

There was Eltab the demon lord, set upon the land by Narfell mages, where it was the Witches of Rashemi that imprisoned him AND bound a dracolich to guard said prison.
Later then, there was Szass Tam and his series of political maneuvers against Rashemen (along with him freeing Eltab). The Rashemi Witches constantly kept Thay invasions in check.

It seems to me like a solid spell-choice for Shamans should be Dismissal / Banishment. Gotta get rid of those pesky demons and invading mage-summons.
Alternatively, it might be cool of they got some unique doohickey; let's call it the Shaman's Grimoire. This grimoire gets special 1/day spell uses, as they level up. One could probably tailor which spells that would be, in accordance to some archetypal paths, as well.
Aodh Lazuli wrote:
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I, too, struggle to know what is written in books without first reading them.

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Shaman Rage Synergy

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:30 pm

Hello, so shaman are at a lovely spot right now (good job on the class). I think the tribal barbarian synergy is good enough to be viable meme but not too strong as to be OP making other dips very viable if not better.

That being said, I been taking a looking at plain barb synergy.

with lacking the buff spells clerics have like divine power and magic vestment, etc. Would it be possible to make shaman/barb qaulified for epic rage feats? if you maxed out str we would be looking at around 42 ab still with 16 pre epic ab. Which is quite lackluster but could be a lot of fun with thundering rage plus haste plus bunch elemental swarm (this would also mean much much less ac than a battle cleric too besides the less ab). Considering the somewhat lackluster ab, it would be a fun option instead of an OP option as youd still be eating up epic feats which are very important to a caster too.

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garrbear758
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Re: Shaman Rage Synergy

Post by garrbear758 » Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:06 pm

I’d much sooner see them get divine power than epic rage feats. Those feats will always be exclusive to barbarian (short of a barb prestige that we currently have no plans for).

We’ve floated a few ideas for buffs to shaman ab because battleshaman would be a neat thing, but nothing has really stuck yet / I never got around to implementation. Something similar to ekd’s banner that gives an ab bonus was probably my favorite idea, but as an aoe quickly becomes a balance nightmare, especially considering that some builds can reliably have 6 summons. The other big issue with an ab buff is avoiding making zen archery too strong, which is a bit of a risk combined with throwing axe rage damage.

Anyways, something thematic that gives them around 5 ab is much needed.
You've done it [Garrbear], you've kicked the winemom nest. -Redacted

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Re: Shaman Rage Synergy

Post by AstralUniverse » Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:48 pm

garrbear758 wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:06 pm
I’d much sooner see them get divine power than epic rage feats. Those feats will always be exclusive to barbarian (short of a barb prestige that we currently have no plans for).

We’ve floated a few ideas for buffs to shaman ab because battleshaman would be a neat thing, but nothing has really stuck yet / I never got around to implementation. Something similar to ekd’s banner that gives an ab bonus was probably my favorite idea, but as an aoe quickly becomes a balance nightmare, especially considering that some builds can reliably have 6 summons. The other big issue with an ab buff is avoiding making zen archery too strong, which is a bit of a risk combined with throwing axe rage damage.

Anyways, something thematic that gives them around 5 ab is much needed.
I recall Divine Favors was mentioned before... by you think? or another dev, as the possible missing piece with this class. I was always under the impression that never went live because the class was considered in a fine spot. Maybe Divine Favor is a good idea. I think Divine Power wouldnt be as good of an idea because it actually has a bit of anti-synergy with going 4 barb lvls pre-epic but both would be interesting additions to the class. Although do keep watch over monk dips hyperspacing this buff attempt.
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Re: Shaman Rage Synergy

Post by Diegovog » Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:58 pm

I agree, shaman and barb synergy needs some work. iirc it was the intended way for shamans to be.

If the problem is balancing around the 6 summons on tribe path just buff the rage bonus. And if that's still a problem give a slight debuff to something else (ac?)

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garrbear758
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Re: Shaman Rage Synergy

Post by garrbear758 » Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:07 pm

AstralUniverse wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:48 pm
garrbear758 wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:06 pm
I’d much sooner see them get divine power than epic rage feats. Those feats will always be exclusive to barbarian (short of a barb prestige that we currently have no plans for).

We’ve floated a few ideas for buffs to shaman ab because battleshaman would be a neat thing, but nothing has really stuck yet / I never got around to implementation. Something similar to ekd’s banner that gives an ab bonus was probably my favorite idea, but as an aoe quickly becomes a balance nightmare, especially considering that some builds can reliably have 6 summons. The other big issue with an ab buff is avoiding making zen archery too strong, which is a bit of a risk combined with throwing axe rage damage.

Anyways, something thematic that gives them around 5 ab is much needed.
I recall Divine Favors was mentioned before... by you think? or another dev, as the possible missing piece with this class. I was always under the impression that never went live because the class was considered in a fine spot. Maybe Divine Favor is a good idea. I think Divine Power wouldnt be as good of an idea because it actually has a bit of anti-synergy with going 4 barb lvls pre-epic but both would be interesting additions to the class. Although do keep watch over monk dips hyperspacing this buff attempt.
That was me, but I never got around to it, and the monk dip / zen archer versions are concerning there as well.
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Hinty
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Re: Shaman Rage Synergy

Post by Hinty » Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:09 pm

I would like to see Rage become a base ability for Shaman (at the current progression) its a nice ability that gives some flavour to the class, but the issue is, if you want a Shaman that can rage, you can't really afford to dip any other class since that would be sacrificing 6 levels from your primary casting class.


Nomadic Horse Tribe Shaman? Well that screams rage. It also screams Cavalier. You're not getting both.
Shaman of an Uthgar tribe? Say, black raven? Blue Bear? Well that screams Rage, and it screams Totem summons. Spell castings going to suck with at least 6 levels dipped into barb and ranger.

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Re: Shaman Rage Synergy

Post by Hinty » Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:12 pm

garrbear758 wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:07 pm
That was me, but I never got around to it, and the monk dip / zen archer versions are concerning there as well.

Divine Power/Shield seems to have many issues related to diping with various classes.

Perhaps it could be balanced by scaling it based upon the number of levels you have in a class that can use it.

Warlock/Sorc with 3 levels in BG? Well, you'll not get much use out of it.

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Re: Shaman Rage Synergy

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:28 pm

garrbear758 wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:06 pm
I’d much sooner see them get divine power than epic rage feats. Those feats will always be exclusive to barbarian (short of a barb prestige that we currently have no plans for).

We’ve floated a few ideas for buffs to shaman ab because battleshaman would be a neat thing, but nothing has really stuck yet / I never got around to implementation. Something similar to ekd’s banner that gives an ab bonus was probably my favorite idea, but as an aoe quickly becomes a balance nightmare, especially considering that some builds can reliably have 6 summons. The other big issue with an ab buff is avoiding making zen archery too strong, which is a bit of a risk combined with throwing axe rage damage.

Anyways, something thematic that gives them around 5 ab is much needed.
much appreciated if the something works better/eqaully to barb synergy than other options like monk.

But I will let you guys figure that out. I just thought burning an epic feat for thunder rage while taking unoptimal non tumble dip plus needing 4 pre epic bab and still needing to discipline dump at lvl 30 AND still lacking a bit in the ab department would be fine in terms of 'balance' and theme in terms of 'barbarian'. But I am all for better ideas and look forward to them.

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Re: Shaman Rage Synergy

Post by Spriggan Bride » Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:36 pm

I don’t want to take away from anyone’s enjoyment of the tribal barbarian shaman mix but I hope it’s not considered the primary shaman build with any future class changes.

For one thing the tribal barbarian in general is just weird to RP around. Players toting around two silent, nameless NPCs of a playable race that are almost universally ignored or not treated as actual sentient beings by PCs including the player themself. Not saying get rid of the class, but leave it to the rare tribal barb and encourage it to be the default shaman thing.

For another it doesn’t seem like the intended concept. Maybe I’m wrong but was a shaman/tribal barbarian/ranger throwing axes really what the dev who created it had in mind? Seems like a loophole some min-maxing builder came up with and that the dev would sigh at to me and that the intended concept was more straightforward barbarian.

Like I said if you enjoy it, great, I am not saying take the build away from anyone but I would much rather see shaman changes oriented towards casters or non-tribal battle shamans. I like the idea of the class and I don’t think they lack for power at the end but if you aren’t hurling axes I’m finding them a real chore to level compared to other casters.

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Re: Shaman Rage Synergy

Post by garrbear758 » Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:59 pm

Spriggan Bride wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:36 pm
I don’t want to take away from anyone’s enjoyment of the tribal barbarian shaman mix but I hope it’s not considered the primary shaman build with any future class changes.

For one thing the tribal barbarian in general is just weird to RP around. Players toting around two silent, nameless NPCs of a playable race that are almost universally ignored or not treated as actual sentient beings by PCs including the player themself. Not saying get rid of the class, but leave it to the rare tribal barb and encourage it to be the default shaman thing.

For another it doesn’t seem like the intended concept. Maybe I’m wrong but was a shaman/tribal barbarian/ranger throwing axes really what the dev who created it had in mind? Seems like a loophole some min-maxing builder came up with and that the dev would sigh at to me and that the intended concept was more straightforward barbarian.

Like I said if you enjoy it, great, I am not saying take the build away from anyone but I would much rather see shaman changes oriented towards casters or non-tribal battle shamans. I like the idea of the class and I don’t think they lack for power at the end but if you aren’t hurling axes I’m finding them a real chore to level compared to other casters.
I am the dev who created shaman.

1. We specifically had to code in tribal scaling on shamans. I've also seen some people use it to great effect in RP. If you haven't, go spend some time with "Tom the Wand Merchant" in Guldorand.

2. There isn't one specific build we were aiming for. Pokemon master, caster shaman, and battleshaman were all intended to be viable options, and I'm sure there are several more that exist or could exist. Battleshaman badly needs some help, but the other build options are in a decent place and the goal is to buff battleshaman without buffing the others.
You've done it [Garrbear], you've kicked the winemom nest. -Redacted

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