Shaman Feedback

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Scraps
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Shaman Feedback

Post by Scraps » Wed Apr 08, 2020 8:13 pm

Hey! Just dropping a few of my first thoughts of the new class here. I'm very interested in the roleplay aspects of the class, but a little worried about it mechanically.


Obviously taking effectively the Druid base, then pulling out all things 'Shapeshift' leaves a huge power vacuum. The Druid Spell list has a few winners in it, but it doesn't compare to the potential damage of Arcanists or the raw buffing prowess Cleric/FS

That leaves you with summoning spells, which Shaman has in spades, along with some added undead summons for potential Necromancer shamans and everyone's favorite Elemental Swarm. -Of course Mummy Dust and Dragon Knight are sitting in the wings, as they are for all casters. -And of course some nice Druid uniques, like Stonehold


However, the Druid Spell list has some serious issues for a caster who doesn't have the option to hop into a potentially four digit healthpool when danger comes knocking. Lack of Gsanct is a very big one. Poor AC another. I get the feeling it's a very squishy class with the Druid Spell list.

Potentially there's synergy build in Tribal Barbarian/Shaman Barbarian Scaling, and I don't want to squash that build. It sounds cool and thematic for a Shaman to be flanked by a pair his tribes warriors. But that shouldn't be -the only- build, and even with that build. Your poor defensive options make you the weak link that'll cause those tribal warriors to vanish and you get pasted.



Beyond the spell list itself.

I like the use poison synergy, I like the Barbarian Rage synergy. Both are interesting, both are thematic.

However, I don't know how practical either are. The Druid Spellbook isn't rocking the self buffing options (offensive OR defensive) of a cleric, you won't be making up for your very significant Medium AB penalty through your spell list. Even if you were, you're not going to be in any state to stick around in the front-line with your AC.

Battlecleric the Barb/Shaman certainly is not.

Divination spell feats: Very cool! Again, super thematic for a Tribal Shaman. Strange the epic feat isn't a cookie, even if it were for those few mad-lad's attempting a pure shaman.




To sum up.

It's a very cool and thematic idea, but the Druid parts that got removed were absolutely a massive part of the power-pie of that class. Yes this class isn't a druid. Yes they shouldn't shapeshift. But something potent needs to fill that void, because right now Shamans are feeling pretty fragile without something there.

Barb synergy is very cool. But currently very weak, except potentially Tribal Barb. But still suffers of the problem of being a hasteless, Gsanctless, summoner with poor AC and bad defensive's that'll get pasted.

Non-Tribal Synergy is much much worse. Use poison is cool, can't see it actually getting used on a weapon.

Divination feats are cool.

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Hunter548
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Shaman feedback

Post by Hunter548 » Wed Apr 08, 2020 8:19 pm

Shaman are cool

Suggestions:

1) They're a primary casting class without access to haste. They desperately need haste, probably at level 3-5. (Level four would be my suggestion), especially given that favored souls just get haste as a SLA.

2) They probably need greater sanctuary as well, given that they're the only casting class aside from warlocks (and possibly FS) without that or polymorphs as an escape button.

3) Gear. They lack access to all the +2 wisdom gear except the bracers of preservation (which aren't great), and thus have to enchant their own. That's largely fine, except they can't even use the basic non-enchanted craftable magical staff for aesthetic purposes (It's class-locked to bard/cleric/wiz/sorc/druid). The latter should probably change, and cloning some of the druid gear as shaman versions of it probably wouldn't be remiss either.

4) They probably shouldn't stack 1:1 with barbarian levels for tribal barbarian summon purposes. 1:2 (or w/e) would probably be fine, but these summons get very strong at high levels as a trade off for the fact that 27 barbarian levels (or 30) isn't very good otherwise. Stacking that onto a caster chasis is probably a mistake, balance-wise.
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Drowboy
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Re: Shaman Feedback

Post by Drowboy » Wed Apr 08, 2020 8:19 pm

Irongron suggested the spirit companion from pnp, which would certainly help. Something else I saw was a sort of wow-shaman-esque buff/debuff totem thing (or gw1 rit if you're nasty), which could add flavor and such.

Maybe alter blood frenzy to serve as a cleric-style AB buff?
Edit: Only activated if you have barb levels. Monks don't @ me
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Sockss
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Re: Shaman Feedback

Post by Sockss » Wed Apr 08, 2020 8:39 pm

I think the barbarian synergy makes up a bit for the lake of monolith/elemental and sancing defensively.

It also gives you offensive and defensive possibilities, including fun weird things like a zen throwing axe shaman, or DR shamans.

You've also got HIPS in vine mine.

Overall it's not exceptionally strong, I haven't broken it yet.

The tribal path doesn't work with it and, frankly, I'm glad. The path is balanced around barbarian levels, not having a big CL caster behind them and would undoubtedly cause problems when shoving buffs on them and backed up with bombard.

Although I must admit the whole 'dual class' thing isn't something I'm fond of, this is okay but if there are ever barbarian reworks in the future it does throw a spanner into the mix. The whole SM duality didn't do so well either and has the same problem. Removing it and putting something new there would be cooler.
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Drowboy
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Re: Shaman Feedback

Post by Drowboy » Wed Apr 08, 2020 9:04 pm

It's niche, but adding them to Elder Dream would be nice, as well.
Edit, more thoughts from discord after toying with one:
Shaman feels a lot more 'feature complete' than favored soul, but could still use a little oomph for those not wanting to use monk to shore up its defense at the 11th hour. It definitely needs haste access, and both of the new ones could frankly use a concealment source, especially since they'd have to sacrifice another ability to get it anyway.

As with FS: The 3 available spells known at the later spell levels really hurts, especially with no options like the new shadow spells.
Last edited by Drowboy on Wed Apr 08, 2020 9:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Wuthering
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Re: Shaman Feedback

Post by Wuthering » Wed Apr 08, 2020 9:56 pm

As you're without animal companion maybe shamans could cast magic fang/GMF on their weapon for a buff? Or some other nature spell could give them a lesser version of "imbue"?

Scraps
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Re: Shaman Feedback

Post by Scraps » Wed Apr 08, 2020 9:58 pm

Shaman's don't have Nature's Balance, Magic Fang, Greater Magic Fang, Awaken, or uh.. Whatever the name of the really strong wisdom buff was.

In return they get Spell Breaches and Undead Summons.

Wuthering
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Re: Shaman Feedback

Post by Wuthering » Wed Apr 08, 2020 10:01 pm

Oh, I assumed the list was stock druid.. Can't even log in to the PGCC it's so crowded!

Well, still. I think weapon enhancement of some sort- ideally something like but different than spellsword imbues would be cool and useful.

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Zavandar
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Re: Shaman Feedback

Post by Zavandar » Wed Apr 08, 2020 10:59 pm

Is tribal going to work with this?
Intelligence is too important

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Mattamue
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Re: Shaman Feedback

Post by Mattamue » Wed Apr 08, 2020 11:59 pm

Craftable equipment could use a pass to see if shamans could also wear the items and get some spell slots.

Here's a few to consider adding useable by and also adding shaman spell slots in addition to the cleric/druid. Monk dipping shamans would have this mostly covered. I don't think any monk items need changed, nor barb.

Druidic Garland (Currently Druid, and also make shaman craftable?)
Shaman's Necklace (Currently Cleric, extra spells 1& 2 -- some OK starting gear)
Witch Doctor's Necklace (Currently Cleric, spells 2 & 3 -- helps with zoo)
(Not suggesting the Cleric +2 wis amulet because shaman would have that w/ the helm, but have to choose over prot headband)
Staff of Life & Staff of Blight (Currently Cleric, spell level 5)
Icon of the Hunt (Currently ranger/druid, different +2 wis staff option besides the cleric ones)
Arch-Priest's Duty (Cleric +2 wis robe)
Some new chainmail (But have +1 wis to balance out the choice over robe; + something else to make it better than just a dwoemer like a level 7 spell slot for 1 more harm, and juice the dwoemer level)

Who is the audience for this post?


Entre Laberintos
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Re: Shaman Feedback

Post by Entre Laberintos » Thu Apr 09, 2020 12:10 am

Feels like the character has a lot of tools. It´s hard to analyze it without taking into account the tribal thing, it feels like it is obviously intended to be used. Having that many summons, spells to support them, cc like stonehold, I think that giving them more tankiness would be pretty Snuggle a Bugbear up. They would beat actual tribal barbarians in every aspect.

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garrbear758
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Re: Shaman Feedback

Post by garrbear758 » Thu Apr 09, 2020 12:27 am

I appreciate the feedback. Here's what we are currently for the next balance run, although it may be a few days to get everything done since we're working on 3 classes at once.

1. Shaman is going to get a spirit companion. This is going to be useless offensively, but it will provide an aoe buff to ac, ab, and some skills to the shaman and allies.

2. Going with the above buff, the barbarian rage scaling will be reduced to 2/3 shaman level.

3. I originally left tribal path off intentionally. We are going to tentatively enable it, also at 2/3 shaman level scaling.

Everything is subject to change, and these three classes will likely sit on pgcc for a good amount longer than swashbuckler prior to official release. Please keep the feedback coming! It is extremely helpful.
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xanrael
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Re: Shaman Feedback

Post by xanrael » Thu Apr 09, 2020 12:48 am

I think if Use Poison is to stay some scaling on DCs like the BG and Assassin has would be nice, maybe +1 every 8 levels. Even with scaling you're probably still fishing for 1s in many high level PvP fights so wouldn't think it would change the ceiling much of the class, just makes it more worthwhile leveling up.

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Dr. B
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Re: Shaman feedback

Post by Dr. B » Thu Apr 09, 2020 12:59 am

I wouldn't be against giving them LBP/GPB/Gate. It fits them thematically without making them more powerful than other casters, rather putting them on more even footing.

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garrbear758
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Re: Shaman feedback

Post by garrbear758 » Thu Apr 09, 2020 1:01 am

I appreciate the feedback!

Please please please use the other shaman feedback thread for the sake of our sanity so we only have one to dig through. I posted in that one some things we will be adding / changing.
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Re: Shaman Feedback

Post by Orian_666 » Thu Apr 09, 2020 1:08 am

garrbear758 wrote:
Thu Apr 09, 2020 12:27 am
1. Shaman is going to get a spirit companion. This is going to be useless offensively, but it will provide an aoe buff to ac, ab, and some skills to the shaman and allies.
This sounds awesome and I look forward to it, having something wholly unique to the class I feel is extremely important and this is most likely it!
garrbear758 wrote:
Thu Apr 09, 2020 12:27 am
2. Going with the above buff, the barbarian rage scaling will be reduced to 2/3 shaman level.
This seems fine, it's still fairly strong, and even with a heavy melee build the Shaman is never going to be incredible in melee, and it shouldn't be. Having some melee capability beside your summons is nice though :)
garrbear758 wrote:
Thu Apr 09, 2020 12:27 am
3. I originally left tribal path off intentionally. We are going to tentatively enable it, also at 2/3 shaman level scaling.
I think this will make going Tribal with Shaman redundant. The Tribals are considerably weak already, especially at epic levels, and limiting them to capping out, at best, at level 21 for a Shaman built to use them is just going to be a noob trap (even moreso than Tribal Path on a Barb already is)
I'd either remove this option entirely if it's going to be gimped this harshly, to save people from the trap, or give them a Shaman Variant if the majority of levels in the build (with tribal barb levels) are Shaman levels. A spirit version (just a ghostly effect, no special bonuses), scales the same as Barb tribals (maybe even a little weaker) but you only get 1 instead of 2. Effectively cutting the strength by 50% but still making that 1 tribal somewhat useful in epic content instead of having 2 tribals that are both equally useless in that same content.

xanrael
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Re: Shaman Feedback

Post by xanrael » Thu Apr 09, 2020 1:28 am

For the tribal path they'll have Aura of Vitality + spirit buffing them and feasibly a swarm of 4 elementals or 3 undead to share the work, so they might do better than expected.

Note: I did see a few messages on Discord about not being able to have tribals and triple undead out at the same time. You can, all undead occupy the summon slot and tribals occupy the henchmen slots. Many years ago it worked differently but that's how it works now.

Example: https://imgur.com/a/HRqE47s

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Dr. B
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Re: Shaman Feedback

Post by Dr. B » Thu Apr 09, 2020 2:28 am

I wouldn't be against giving them LBP/GPB/Gate. It fits them thematically without making them more powerful than other casters, rather putting them on more even footing.

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Hunter548
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Re: Shaman Feedback

Post by Hunter548 » Thu Apr 09, 2020 2:37 am

Reposting from the other thread (sorry Garrbear, this one went up at the same time) minus the barb suggestion


1) They're a primary casting class without access to haste. They desperately need haste, probably at level 3-5. (Level four would be my suggestion given how sparse it is for them), especially given that favored souls just get haste as a SLA.

2) They probably need greater sanctuary as well, given that they're the only casting class aside from warlocks (and possibly FS) without that or polymorphs as an escape button, and warlocks don't really need it.

3) Gear. They lack access to all the +2 wisdom gear except the bracers of preservation (which aren't great), and thus have to enchant their own. That's largely fine, except they can't even use the basic non-enchanted craftable magical staff for aesthetic purposes (It's class-locked to bard/cleric/wiz/sorc/druid). The latter should probably change, and cloning some of the druid gear as shaman versions of it probably wouldn't be remiss either. Witchdoctor/Shaman Necklaces as mentioned earlier would be good fits for a conversion over, since I don't think I've ever seen a Cleric use one.


Also, how tanky will the spirit companion be? That's a very dangerous set of buffs to put on it if it can't be removed really quickly.
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garrbear758
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Re: Shaman Feedback

Post by garrbear758 » Thu Apr 09, 2020 2:53 am

Hunter548 wrote:
Thu Apr 09, 2020 2:37 am
Reposting from the other thread (sorry Garrbear, this one went up at the same time) minus the barb suggestion


1) They're a primary casting class without access to haste. They desperately need haste, probably at level 3-5. (Level four would be my suggestion given how sparse it is for them), especially given that favored souls just get haste as a SLA.

2) They probably need greater sanctuary as well, given that they're the only casting class aside from warlocks (and possibly FS) without that or polymorphs as an escape button, and warlocks don't really need it.

3) Gear. They lack access to all the +2 wisdom gear except the bracers of preservation (which aren't great), and thus have to enchant their own. That's largely fine, except they can't even use the basic non-enchanted craftable magical staff for aesthetic purposes (It's class-locked to bard/cleric/wiz/sorc/druid). The latter should probably change, and cloning some of the druid gear as shaman versions of it probably wouldn't be remiss either. Witchdoctor/Shaman Necklaces as mentioned earlier would be good fits for a conversion over, since I don't think I've ever seen a Cleric use one.


Also, how tanky will the spirit companion be? That's a very dangerous set of buffs to put on it if it can't be removed really quickly.
1. We're debating over haste. I'll get back to you on that.

2. We will probably add Gsanc. Considering it removes your summons, it won't be a huge issue balancewise.

3. Obviously balance is going to have to be fine tuned in that regard, but we're still working out the details on it. Right now I'm thinking it should take about a round to kill, and it won't have any offensive abilities. Sorry I don't have a better answer for you yet!
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garrbear758
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Re: Shaman Feedback

Post by garrbear758 » Thu Apr 09, 2020 2:56 am

Dr. B wrote:
Thu Apr 09, 2020 2:28 am
I wouldn't be against giving them LBP/GPB/Gate. It fits them thematically without making them more powerful than other casters, rather putting them on more even footing.
I'm a bit hesitant to do that given that they already have elemental swarms and all undead summons, but I'll bring up to the team to discuss.

EDIT: We're not going to add these as of now. They get every other summon spell in the game already, and summoning outsiders is more in the realm of clerics / favored souls.
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Hunter548
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Re: Shaman Feedback

Post by Hunter548 » Thu Apr 09, 2020 3:32 am

Further question: Will Shaman (And FS, I suppose) count as divine classes for the purposes of passive piety generation? Will they be able to consecrate/desecrate altars?
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garrbear758
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Re: Shaman Feedback

Post by garrbear758 » Thu Apr 09, 2020 3:56 am

Hunter548 wrote:
Thu Apr 09, 2020 3:32 am
Further question: Will Shaman (And FS, I suppose) count as divine classes for the purposes of passive piety generation? Will they be able to consecrate/desecrate altars?
As of right now we do not plan for them to get either of those abilties.
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Re: Shaman Feedback

Post by godhand- » Thu Apr 09, 2020 5:58 am

shaman/witch doctor is one of my favourite archetypes.

I was thinking, could a shaman only stream be created - EG Spirits - potentially for necromancy?
They are meant to be masters of spirits. it would make sense for them to have a spirit stream they can summon as a withc doctor?
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garrbear758
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Re: Shaman Feedback

Post by garrbear758 » Thu Apr 09, 2020 7:01 am

godhand- wrote:
Thu Apr 09, 2020 5:58 am
shaman/witch doctor is one of my favourite archetypes.

I was thinking, could a shaman only stream be created - EG Spirits - potentially for necromancy?
They are meant to be masters of spirits. it would make sense for them to have a spirit stream they can summon as a withc doctor?

1. Shaman is going to get a spirit companion. This is going to be useless offensively, but it will provide an aoe buff to ac, ab, and some skills to the shaman and allies.

2. A spirit steam is a possible option for down the road, but right now we are focusing on getting their core abilities in a good place. Also, I'd rather make that available to anyone similarly to vampire stream rather than limit it to one class.
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