Hexblade

[CrystalRL]

Can we add Crushing Despair to the Hexblade spell list?

Crushing Despair

Caster Level(s): Bard 3 Wizard / Sorcerer 4
Innate Level: 3
School: Enchantment
Descriptor(s): Mind-Affecting
Component(s): Verbal
Range: Medium
Area of Effect / Target: 11m cone
Duration: 1 Round / Level
Additional Counter Spells: Good Hope
Save: Will Negates
Spell Resistance: Yes
An invisible cone of despair causes great sadness in the subjects. Each affected creature takes a -2 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and weapon damagee rolls.

I also suggest changing Hex of Neglect to specifically be that they lose AC based on how many charges their chest armor is missing. That makes more sense to me, given how the flavor was written.

It's unclear if their bonus feat list is JUST the option to take the listed Hex/Curse. It should be noted whether or not the effects stack with the same effect.

Recommendation: Curse of Old Wounds (inflicts Wounding, mechanic heads can figure out the math behind it).

[the grim yeeter]

Aside from the class needing heavy tweaking and nerfing the way it is now (are all of its abilities saveless?!), something definitely needs to be done about this cringy, teenage angst-y, edgelord flavour text.

[a shrouded figure]

Lol @ teenage angst comment.

On a more serious note, this class in its current form is incredibly over tuned. I LOVE that it actually has feats etc for customizing- but it really feels like we took the best from literally everything and crammed it into a single chassis. Lowers AC, check. Lowers AB, check. Charisma to saves, check. Charisma based casting to boot, check. Haste at level 3? You betcha. Casting in plate? No feats required, no problem. Full BAB? Duh we’re building the ultimate class. How about a +5 weapon? Oh heck yah we want that... vampirism? DUH! Oh wait they’re resisting knockdown, oh lower skills on hit duh, we can’t forget that. What if... we just level drain people too? Eh why not.


This one may need to be tuned down team

[Tarkus the dog]

Hope this class is but an April's fools joke that is a little bit late on schedule.

Otherwise, I'm not sure where to even begin. The argument "Noooo!!! Nik! You can't say anything negative because somebody put time and work into it!" doesn't hold water because, again, this class - has to be a joke.

Love you all, but this time you really did it, Arelith.

EDIT: By the way, I can go into details in regards to everything wrong with this class. But I can't help feel as if that so very much not needed.

[Xerah]

Hope this class is but an April's fools joke that is a little bit late on schedule.

Otherwise, I'm not sure where to even begin. The argument "Noooo!!! Nik! You can't say anything negative because somebody put time and work into it!" doesn't hold water because, again, this class - has to be a joke.

Love you all, but this time you really did it, Arelith.

EDIT: By the way, I can go into details in regards to everything wrong with this class. But I can't help feel as if that so very much not needed.

It's not about saying something negative or not, it's about the poor attitude that is extremely apparent in your post.

These classes are starting points and jumping off the deep end and proclaiming the death of everything doesn't help anyone. If you have actual feedback, then provide it. If you just want to sound cool, then take it elsewhere.

[Baron Saturday]

I am so, soooo stoked to play this class, but it it seems extremely strong in its current iteration. 4 base skill points/level on a full BAB class with a near-perfect class skill list that also gets saves via Dark Blessing is just... a really good chassis.

Also, I may be reading incorrectly, but it seems that all the improvements to Curse Weapon are cumulative? Meaning that a pure Hexblade potentially gets:

+5 enhancement
5 vamp regen
Onhit Level Drain
10 magic damage (the 5 self damage from this is effectively negated by the vamp regen)
Prevents magic healing
Plus 20-ish damage of various (preventable) types, depending on which 4 of 6 damage curses feats they pick up.

That seems like a lot. The magical healing one, in particular, feels like it would give a pretty insurmountable advantage over every other melee class, and that's without even touching upon hexes. I'm basically left with the question... What are a Hexblade's weaknesses?

Other Questions:
- How often can a Hexblade hex someone?
- Does the hex have a saving throw?
- What is a hexblade's spell progression in terms of spells known and spells/day?

Some possible changes:
- Reduce BAB to 3/4
- Reduce skill points to 2/level
- Remove Dark Blessing
- Give Curse of Worms and Curse of Draining saving throws or otherwise limit how often they trigger
- Reduce Curse of Blood healing so that it doesn't negate Curse of Sacrifice self-damage

Regarding some earlier feedback:
Unless I missed something, hexblade is typically gonna be using chain shirt/large shield, as their casting is affected by ASF and only reduced by 20%. Assuming their spell progression is similar to paladin/ranger, they get haste at level 11.

[Shadowy Reality]

Has anyone actually tried planning one? This seems like pure conjecture at this point.

You have 4 Hex feats pre-epic, this means that you can't do everything. You have to take your picks, better Hex, better Curse Weapon. If you want divine might/shield you have go to Blackguard and that closes you off the 28 capstone, same if you go for a Tumble/UMD dip. If you want both that probably closes the level 23 hexes too.

Draw one up and post it here.

[Aradin]

I for one think Hexblade looks like a really cool concept. I'm no mechanics wiz so I won't comment on any of that, I just wanted to say that the flavour text is a little, um...the stuff of angsty teenage edgelord dreams. Maybe tone it down a little bit?

[a shrouded figure]

Masterly Elven Chain is currently one of the best armors in the game- essentially plate with more DI.

[Hunter548]

1) Hexes/curses desperately need saves attached, and probably not to stack with each other in the same activation (IE, you need to hit someone with -ac hex, then -ab hex, rather than both simultaneously)

2) They also probably need some counter-play in the sense of being purgable with restoration (Spellsword has the same problem)

3) Several of the hexes/curses need their effectiveness reduced by 60% or more (Curse of Worms being the big one)

4) Adding a way to give positive/negative vulnerability is something I'd avoid; it makes harm, greater ruin and hellball significantly stronger, and none of them really need the help.

5) The level drain on hit for Curse of Draining needs a cap on how often it procs

[Opustus]

Hum, knowing how the Hex and Curse Weapon abilities work should be the starting point. Actual spell or class ability, cast time, casts/day or cooldown or unlimited, duration, can you hex multiple targets?

[strong yeet]

Some brief notes

-Saveless loss of 4-5 AC/AB is absurd and arguably as strong as curse song. Saveless loss of 4-5 AC/AB that stacks is insanity.

-Saveless level drain is a really, really, really bad idea.

-Ability to stop people from healing is probably the most ludicrously powerful effect on the server. Holy cow

-Vulnerabilities to negative energy encourage an already unhealthy Harm meta. You can already hit someone with 405 damage in a single spell, I'm not sure if there should be more effects (looking at you, PDK...) that make it slam harder

-You get 8 bonus feats, so you can pretty much pick and choose the best out of all these hexes and curses to give yourself an insane loadout.

-Not much incentive to multiclass. The benefits you get from going pure outweigh multiclassing, even the really obvious synergy with Blackguard for div might+shield, simply because the capstones is "saveless level drain on hit." Further, if you're going to encourage such an obvious combination of hexblade+bg, why bother with dark blessing? They'll get it from the best multiclass option anyway. If you MC there's no reason to take any class other than BG, except maybe an additional splash in monk or rogue.

It's a cool concept but ultimately I don't think it occupies any new design space. Whether that be in RP (spellsword/BGs or spellswords with warlock dips already exist, what's the difference?) or mechanics (let's be honest, there are some real parallels here...)

I guess that's ok, ultimately, as more options = better. I liked the previous classes save for the very first +10 AB iteration of cavalier and they suffer a lot from the same problems, though some of them do enable certain niches which couldn't otherwise be explored.

tl;dr please nerf

[Void]

I for one think Hexblade looks like a really cool concept. I'm no mechanics wiz so I won't comment on any of that, I just wanted to say that the flavour text is a little, um...the stuff of angsty teenage edgelord dreams. Maybe tone it down a little bit?

I feel the same way. Very over the top.

From PnP

Combining the dynamic powers of martial prowess and arcane might, the hexblade presents a deadly challenge to opponents unused to such a foe.

Adventures: Hexblades adventure for personal gain, whether that gain is power, prestige, wealth, or all the above. Characteristics: The hexblade balances talents in combat and arcane spellcasting. At lower levels, the hexblade relies on melee ability augmented by his special power to curse his enemies. As he gains experience, he becomes capable of casting a limited number of spells
while his curse ability becomes more potent and he gains the ability to warp the normal laws of probability. He can also draw upon the service of a familiar to further augment his abilities.

Alignment: The style of the hexblade tends to be selfi sh, sometimes even cruel, though it is by no means limited to evil characters. Still, even the friendliest hexblade is at best neutral. Hexblades may be tyrannical or free-minded, disciplined or creative, and thus have no particular bent toward law or chaos.

Religion: Most hexblades aren’t very pious, relying on their own talents rather than counting on a deity to protect them. Those who revere a deity often choose Wee Jas (deity of death and magic) or Boccob the Uncaring (deity of magic). Some particularly evil hexblades venerate Nerull (deity of death) or Vecna (deity of secrets).

Background: Like that of the sorcerer, the power of the hexblade often displays itself at an early age, frequently in the form of unexplained accidents or other incidents of bad luck experienced by those around the budding hexblade. Though the hexblade is ultimately a self-taught character, many receive rudimentary training from another arcane spellcaster, such as an older hexblade, sorcerer, wizard, or bard, before setting off on their own. Unlike sorcerers, hexblades share a unique bond. Though two hexblades who meet in a tavern or apothecary won’t necessarily strike up a lasting friendship, it is rare for two hexblades to oppose one another unless great personal gain is on the line.

Races: As with sorcerers, most hexblades are humans or half-elves. Those few gnomes who enjoy a cruel twist to their levity may take up the tradition. Elves wishing to mix magic and warfare more often become fi ghter/wizards. Dwarves and halfl ings rarely exhibit the self-centered behavior common among hexblades.
Among the savage humanoids, hexblades may be found as leaders or advisors.

Other Classes: Hexblades tend to get along best with other classes whose members look out for themselves before others, including rogues, rangers, and barbarians. They avoid paladins and other characters dedicated to the service of good or other high-minded ideals. Hexblades sometimes feel jealous of the sorcerer’s superior arcane talents, and they shun wizards as weak book-learners.

Role: Though a capable melee combatant, the hexblade relies on opportunistic use of his spells and special abilities to augment this role in the group. A hexblade with the proper skill selection can make a fi ne leader for a group comfortable with his style.

[Baron Saturday]

Masterly Elven Chain is currently one of the best armors in the game- essentially plate with more DI.

Fair point.

-Ability to stop people from healing is probably the most ludicrously powerful effect on the server. Holy cow

My reaction as well! What if it instead reduced magical healing effectiveness by some %? Still very strong, but not overwhelmingly so.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

The language around "once per day" for Curse Weapons seems to imply you cant have an arsenal of weapons all cursed, ya? Like your cursed scimitar, cursed maul, cursed qstaff?

Recursing would dispel the previous cursed weapon?

There are many questions to be asked!

Sidenote: digged the edginess. Bigger concern is the enforceability of evil and the nature of pact or whatever roleplay. Do not want the feylock disaster of years past.

[Hunter548]

Has anyone actually tried planning one? This seems like pure conjecture at this point.

You have 4 Hex feats pre-epic, this means that you can't do everything. You have to take your picks, better Hex, better Curse Weapon. If you want divine might/shield you have go to Blackguard and that closes you off the 28 capstone, same if you go for a Tumble/UMD dip. If you want both that probably closes the level 23 hexes too.

Draw one up and post it here.

I think pure hexblade might be the strongest permutation of it, too. Off the top of my head

30 Hexblade, Human

Strength 8
Dex 16 (Gift for 17) All levelups into dex
Con 12 (Gift for 14)
Int 14
Wis 8
Charisma 16

1 Expertise, Improved Expertise
2
3 Finesse
4
5
6 SF Abjuration
7 (Hex of Neglect)
8
9 Blindfight
10
11(Hex of Hallucination)
12 GSF Abjuration
13
14
15 AD: Abj (Hex of Elemental Decay)
16
17
18 WF Lightblade
19 (Curse of Cold/Acid/Lightning/Dissonance)
20
21EWF
22
23 (Curse of Cold/Acid/Lightning/Dissonance)
24 Great Dex
25
26 (Curse of Worms)
27 Blinding Speed
28 (Curse of Draining)
29
30 Armor Skin/Epic Prowess (Curse of Cold/Acid/Lightning/Dissonance OR Hex of Ineptitude)

If you take Hex of Ineptitude, KD somewhere might be a good pickup too.

Skills are something like
33 discipline
33 lore
33 spellcraft
33 taunt
15 tumble
33 bluff or craft mastery (Or concentration if hexes are interuptable)

You can probably optimize this further (case in point I missed finesse originally), but you get the idea. It's not weak at all. Your AC is fairly respectable after you hit people with the -ab hex, ditto your AB. Damage isn't quite strength WM tier but STR wms don't drain a level every hit and don't have all that elemental damage.

If you really want divine feats, you probably go 27/3 and skip the abjuration line.

(The idea that it's impossible to assess a class without a build write-up infront of us is a little absurd too)

[Poolbrain]

The curse doesn't seem much more powerful then a bard's curse/regular song, only that is single target. The full BAB seems maybe a bit over tuned + that it gets dark blessing? (all charisma to saves?). I think people should have to multi to BG for that.

I really like the idea and customisability of the class. You could build it for melee but also get good DC on spells thanks to the saves curse.

Over all: I think it really needs 3/4 progression and d8 hp? otherwise it doesn't stand out a lot from the power of a bard in my oppinion.

(I hope the curse actually remaines tuned to stay saveless like curse song, i bet this curse would also be removed by a simple restoration potion. Level drain gets countered by neg potion etc. I don't see how the abilities are too overpowered)

[Biolab00]

Though, there's no hexblade at level 30 yet since it's freshly out.
All that's said is currently speculations.

I don't know how OP hexblade will be unless i manage to meet one.
But going for pure hexblade sounds weird, i don't think anyone will do it because you will lose out on UMD and that makes a hella lot difference.
And it's missing Spot/listen ( for detection ), Tumble ( for AC )

And again, I'm not sure who will actually pick this class to play, but it won't be me, since i hate to plan for new class since it's unknown territory. I supposed, it will take 1 months to actually see how it turns out? Since, Hexblade seems to need heavy investment and it takes time to level

[Hunter548]

The curse doesn't seem much more powerful then a bard's curse/regular song, only that is single target. The full BAB seems maybe a bit over tuned + that it gets dark blessing? (all charisma to saves?). I think people should have to multi to BG for that.

I really like the idea and customisability of the class. You could build it for melee but also get good DC on spells thanks to the saves curse.

Over all: I think it really needs 3/4 progression and d8 hp? otherwise it doesn't stand out a lot from the power of a bard in my oppinion.

(I hope the curse actually remaines tuned to stay saveless like curse song, i bet this curse would also be removed by a simple restoration potion. Level drain gets countered by neg potion etc. I don't see how the abilities are too overpowered)

The thing is, bard is probably the strongest class in the game. Basically every server I've ever played except for Arelith nerfs bard.

Comparing it to bard isn't a great idea because bard is also pretty broken.

[Frailman]

Naginata's back bayyybbeeeeeee. 24hex/3monk/bg div might 1000000dmg per round here we go

[Tarkus the dog]

Man I can be mean sometimes!

It's not about saying something negative or not, it's about the poor attitude that is extremely apparent in your post.

These classes are starting points and jumping off the deep end and proclaiming the death of everything doesn't help anyone. If you have actual feedback, then provide it. If you just want to sound cool, then take it elsewhere.

Alright:

Level 2: Dark Blessing

Why, exactly? 3 levels of paladin or blackguard is quite an investment. It costs you a class slot ( of which you have 3 in total ) and 3 levels. That's not a small payment. A bard would have to lose 3 levels of CL and bard song, just to name an example.

Hex - A Hexblade can use their dark magic to cast a Hex on someone, lowering their skills by -1 per 6 Hexblade levels.

Hex of Ineptitude - The Hex now lowers your target’s skills by a further -1 per 6 Hexblade levels.

In comparison, a level 21 bard's curse song gets this but in AoE - however, you can restore it. Now here's the question, how does the Hex work? Is there a save? Is it single target? Is it instant cast? There are a lot of unanswered questions here. And honestly? Looking at this, and this alone? It doesn't seem that bad. -10 to skills, that's a good chance for you to KD/Called shot somebody, but the problem is very vivid once we take a glance at the other feats and abilities:

Hex of Elemental Decay (Requires 23 Hexblade) - The target of your Hex receives 1% vulnerability to all elemental damage per Hexblade level.

Hex of Duality (Requires 23 Hexblade) - The target of your Hex receives 1% vulnerability to positive and negative damage per Hexblade level.

Combo this with a weaponmaster or anything else that deals elemental damage ( like, well, warlocks, or mages ) and we're talking about tons of damage. And frankly, you don't even need to because of the curses which I will get into a moment. The next on the list is...:

Hex of Neglect - The target of your Hex loses 1 armor AC per 6 Hexblade levels.

Hex of Hallucination - The target of your Hex loses 1 attack bonus per 6 Hexblade levels.

Hex of Acedia - The target of your Hex receives a penalty of -1 to all saving throws per 6 Hexblade levels.

Again, is there a save? Is it a normal spell cast? Can you restore it? Is there a cooldown? -5 ab, ac, and saves is... well. It basically means that if you're a melee, you become more or less worthless in a PvP.

Curse Weapon - Once a day, you can curse your own weapon, giving it a +1 enhancement bonus per 6 Hexblade levels. This effect lasts for 24 hours.

Why, exactly? This is a +5 keen weapon we're talking about. You don't even need to get some of the curses, just get 1d4 positive and 1d4 sonic. Sure, not as strong, but it nearly makes it as if you can grab all the curses.

Curse of Worms (Requires 26 Hexblade) -. Anyone hit by your Cursed Weapon can no longer be magically healed for 6 seconds.

Now you're also an anti-healer. Does this mean heal potions as well as clerics being unable to heal you?

Curse of Blood - Upon hitting an enemy, the Hexblade will be healed 1 hit point per 6 Hexblade levels.

Why even play a ranger?

Curse of X - Your Cursed Weapon will deal 1 X damage per 6 Hexblade levels.

Do these stack with eachother? Do Hexblades get 5/5/5/5 elemental damage ( that, again, works very, very well with the 30% vulnerability and, /again/, works very well with the fact that you can just keen a bronze weapon, so even more crits.

Curse of Draining (Requires 28 Hexblade) . On a successful hit, your Cursed Weapon will drain 1 level from your opponent.

Again, is there a save to this? If not, why?

Curse of Sacrifice (Requires 23 Hexblade) - Your curse weapon deals 2 magic damage per 6 Hexblade levels on hit (this damage is not multiplied by criticals), but it also damages the Hexblade by 1 damage per 6 Hexblade levels.

This one is okay, actually liking this one. Synergises very well with Curse of Blood, so might as well grab it.

Now the spells:

Mage Armor, Shield, Bull's, Eagle's, Cat's, See Invis, Ultravision, Haste, Invis Purge???, Improved Invis, Confusion, Evards

Who needs UMD? Thousands and thousands of gold wasted. No more, just cast all of those spells. Are these spells powerful on their own? Not really. When combined with all the other things that the class gets? Absolutely.

So, when I say that I am hoping that this class is merely a joke, what I mean is that we're looking at:

1. High BAB class
2. 4 skills per level
3. Good saves
4. Anti-mage because +5 weapon and what I typed above, skill drain ( Basically if you slap a mage with -10 discipline and get on top of them they are dead )
5. Good damage, however, you can just go DEX based for more AC instead
6. Amazing debuffer. Almost as good as a bard, with the exception that a bard does AoE debuffs
7. Anti-heal
8. Outstanding 1v1 since the class is focused on single target hexes and curses ( Or that is how I understood it )
9. Despite of being good at 1v1, it doesn't suffer in group fights either because of the debuffs. Just hex the main priority and your fellow warlocks, wizards or weaponmasters will demolish it
10. Very good sustain. Prior to this, only rangers and spellswords could PvE without needing to use a single healing kits, and sometimes even PvP without needing to heal! This class has that too.
11. Anti-DR. Magic damage and elemental vulnerability allows them to dunk on barbarians, dwarven defenders and warlocks
12. A caster. Self-reliant, doesn't need a mage whatsoever. 30 CL haste for days. Pretty much can full-buff and retain those buffs for a very long time. A cleric is always welcome. Good God, the things I would do if I could have this on my weaponmasters.
13. Pretty good skills. They have all the skills they need. Discipline, lore, concentration, spellcrafting, /taunt/. They don't get tumble, but trading 3 AC for the goodies that pure gives you is worth it, I'd say.

Down sides? There are a couple, sure. Evil is mandatory, so smiters might be back on the menu. AC is the standard one unless you dip into blackguard ( unless this is not doable! ), but if you ask me? Just go DEX based. You won't lose much on the damage department, you already have decent base damage from your curses.

Now, I apologize if I came off as obnoxious in my first post, but with all of these things combined? You start to see why I'm having an issue with a class that nearly replaces a ranger, fighter, mage, blackguard and bard. This class is a swiss-knife that I would love to play, but I'm afraid nobody would get much enjoyment from it.

[Xerah]

Now, I apologize if I came off as obnoxious in my first post, but with all of these things combined? You start to see why I'm having an issue with a class that nearly replaces a ranger, fighter, mage, blackguard and bard. This class is a swiss-knife that I would love to play, but I'm afraid nobody would get much enjoyment from it.

Thanks for the feedback. This is a very good summary and I agree with most of it. Garr has noted that these are just starting points and will be adjusted further so this kind of feedback is useful for the iterative process.

Sometimes a developer can get somewhat tunnel vision and not see the entire thing that seems obvious to other people.

[Tarkus the dog]

Now, I apologize if I came off as obnoxious in my first post, but with all of these things combined? You start to see why I'm having an issue with a class that nearly replaces a ranger, fighter, mage, blackguard and bard. This class is a swiss-knife that I would love to play, but I'm afraid nobody would get much enjoyment from it.

Thanks for the feedback. This is a very good summary and I agree with most of it. Garr has noted that these are just starting points and will be adjusted further so this kind of feedback is useful for the iterative process.

Sometimes a developer can get somewhat tunnel vision and not see the entire thing that seems obvious to other people.

I am excited to play it in whatever form it is released, frankly. There is a lot of potential for a fun class in there that can be easily adjusted with some number tinkering.

[Scurvy Cur]

Though, there's no hexblade at level 30 yet since it's freshly out.

But going for pure hexblade sounds weird, i don't think anyone will do it because you will lose out on UMD and that makes a hella lot difference.

Skipping UMD makes precisely zero difference right now.

You have lore for scrolls, and the entire shaman spell list is available through wands that currently require no UMD to use.

[dallion43]

To say anything constructive will require testing on PGG.

Hexes: instant? Stack? NEP invalid? Duration? Multi-cast? Restore removed? Cooldown? Pray canceling+GR? -30% divine works on BG divine? Etc etc.
Curses: cast on MW? Stack with x? Etc, etc.

30 lvl orog, ASF is bs, haste pot(11)+l.br.wand+TS pot, imp.knok, str build+damage stack+(-30%), falc/bast in fullplate+TSh, negatate GR, can be...evil as described.

I will test it on the PGG tomorow with a friend and post constructive feedback if I find what to add by then to the existing feedback :p.


For today let me just thank the people behind this class and previous ones.
This hex class will be much fun to play as an RP idea/build even after the required, imho, toning down.
It is very different from existing classes and fits people lIke me that find playing bard and being unable to write a few poetry lines of any nature is...well. :p.
Thank you!