Arelith

My feedback is that this update is awesome.

Subdual Overhaul (From Inf)
---------------------------
- Summons, familiars, and companions can now subdue.
- All weapons and spells can now subdue.
- Removed the penalty to attack bonus when subdual is on.
- Removed the 5% chance for death on subdual.
- PCs now lose all positive magical effects when subdued.
- Added the -giveup command which kills the PC if they're currently subdued.
- PCs no longer die when subdued while under the effects of a death penalty.



This adds everything without removing anything.

This is all.

Now I'm in permanent -subdual mode and I feel good about wanting to smite for what's right.

I love this. Thanks Inf! It's clean and simple.

Seven Sons of Sin wrote: ↑

Mon May 11, 2020 1:19 am

Now I'm in permanent -subdual mode and I feel good about wanting to smite for what's right.

I love this. Thanks Inf! It's clean and simple.

I 100% agree.

I'll be using subdual moving forward so that I can continue RP after fighting.

Stoked about this. Great work Inf!

They’re greaaaaat!

Is there any point to Dirty Fighting at all anymore or can I pick a different feat when I hit that level!?

- Summons, familiars, and companions can now subdue.

What do Dominated creatures count as? Companions?

Skarain wrote: ↑

Mon May 11, 2020 6:17 am

- Summons, familiars, and companions can now subdue.

What do Dominated creatures count as? Companions?

I think they are henchmen/companions, because you can have them in addition to summons.

As someone who plays a True Flame, this makes my life much easier. If it hasn't already been thought of, though, I'm curious what will happen if I play with subdual always on, and say during PvE with a party I decide things look shifty and I'm just going to incendiary cloud and iceberg the entire battlefield into oblivion.

Could I hypothetically save my party's life with this use of Subdual, since presumably enemies of an NPC nature won't gain the benefit of my tender subdual mercies? If yes, would this also work in PvP, since the enemy is at that point disabled and I'm free to heal up my people (no one has died)?

If so, may I humbly suggest that subdual not work on members of your own party to preemptively prevent prevarications and Cheese?

I'm very much grateful for this option, just don't want to see it get cheesed out of existence. Thanks!

This made me a happy man.

I also really love this change. It's something I've really long wanted for Arelith, and that it is now in I'm a very, very happy kitty.

That being said.

One of the main 'concerns' about subdual has always been that as there was a narrative way to 'pvp without death' people would PvP all the time. That people would view subduing someone as nothing of note. The idea that suddenly Cordor would turn into a vast warzone of murder and mayhem, people subduing each other left and right because dude,, it's just knocking someone over.

Please, prove this concern wrong.

If this does become as said - a chaotic warzone where pvp doesn't matter cos 'lol it's only subdual' then I assure you, it will be removed. Remember subdual isn't 'gently knocking someone down' - it's Beating them into Bloody Unconciousness. It's bringing them to the brink of death, and possibly beyond if the other player wishes.

PvP - even subdued PvP is very serious business. It should still require motive, reason and prior rp. Going forward the Dms will be watching how you guys handle this new system. I have faith that you will use it as intended - as a tool to make death more, not less, serious. As a tool to enhance roleplay, and make great stories.

Please - don't prove me wrong.

Love the change.

One small thing if I could request, does subdual of a pickpocket return pickpocketed items/gold like death does. If not, could it?
Would be nice to not have a mechanically rewarded *murders the cutpurse* as the default ic response to pickpocketing.

The GrumpyCat wrote: ↑

Mon May 11, 2020 12:10 pm

I also really love this change. It's something I've really long wanted for Arelith, and that it is now in I'm a very, very happy kitty.

That being said.

One of the main 'concerns' about subdual has always been that as there was a narrative way to 'pvp without death' people would PvP all the time. That people would view subduing someone as nothing of note. The idea that suddenly Cordor would turn into a vast warzone of murder and mayhem, people subduing each other left and right because dude,, it's just knocking someone over.

Please, prove this concern wrong.

If this does become as said - a chaotic warzone where pvp doesn't matter cos 'lol it's only subdual' then I assure you, it will be removed. Remember subdual isn't 'gently knocking someone down' - it's Beating them into Bloody Unconciousness. It's bringing them to the brink of death, and possibly beyond if the other player wishes.

PvP - even subdued PvP is very serious business. It should still require motive, reason and prior rp. Going forward the Dms will be watching how you guys handle this new system. I have faith that you will use it as intended - as a tool to make death more, not less, serious. As a tool to enhance roleplay, and make great stories.

Please - don't prove me wrong.

I would very much suggest this gets stuck in announcements where people will see it.

Grumpy saved me a long post there.

For those that don't know, and as I stated when I approved the suggestion, I am very much the reason why this didn't go through in this form when subdual was first introduced.

The chance of death, the required investment and all the other nods to realism (only working with certain weapons/no spells), was all because of those concerns, and because I was deeply worried by the message we would send by removing consequence from PvP, and potentially encourage more bullying from high levels to low. The truth is I'm still really worried by that, and find the notion of non-lethal spell versions more than a little absurd.

But, well, in my pursuit of realism I was a major reason why the previous iteration of subdual was basically useless, and never used, while it is also clear that this reversal is almost universally popular, thus it grew pretty clear to me this was a situation where I should put my misgivings aside, and permit a change that went wholly against my personal instinct.

Inf has done great work here, and it's great to see players so enthusiastic, it's just worth noting that I deserve absolutely none of the credit here, quite the opposite!

I've asked DMs to keep a close watch on this though, and everyone should read Grumpy's above post. Any player repeatedly using this system to justify excessive PvP shouldn't be surprised to receive an MoD.

I hadn't even considered that stuff.

But now it's got me thinking. Would subdualing someone open up the door for more guard/criminal/legal roleplay, such as assault/battery charges being pressed instead of murder/attempted murder?

I suppose it would be up to the players IC, but I'm just interested to hear some opinions.

Are we able to kill someone who is prone and at our mercy? The player can do -letgo, but, is there some way we can give a coup-de-grace?

-giveup while you're typing your heroic winner line

cowboy wrote: ↑

Mon May 11, 2020 1:33 pm

Are we able to kill someone who is prone and at our mercy? The player can do -letgo, but, is there some way we can give a coup-de-grace?

Untoggle the mode and hit them again?

Hmm, I must be misremembering, but I thought it put you are the "DEAD" status like in an arena. If it is just near death and on the ground then I suppose you could!

I think it's a great change.

The team's concerns couldnt be more legit. But for what it's worth, they'll probably deal with less reports of bad pvp at the very least. I really think its going to change Arelith big time and there's no change so big that has only good affects.

cowboy wrote: ↑

Mon May 11, 2020 1:38 pm

Hmm, I must be misremembering, but I thought it put you are the "DEAD" status like in an arena. If it is just near death and on the ground then I suppose you could!

Turn off subdual and smash em again. It works.


Personally I dont think PvP is gonna happen any more than it already does. And id go so far as to say that the people that'll use this the most will use it as a tool for RP to continue after a fight, without having to go through the OOC process of asking permission for a raise and the potential for that.


Along with the added tool of being able to smash someone again to death if they are being a Butt even after defeat.


This will be a great tool. I hope it works out as I think its exactly what a good amount of people want.



I will say, if there is an increase of anything, cordor should have some good ole fashioned tavern brawls.... Just cuz you know... Thats just good ole family fun there.


"The team's concerns couldnt be more legit. But for what it's worth, they'll probably deal with less reports of bad pvp at the very least. I really think its going to change Arelith big time and there's no change so big that has only good affects."


Hard agree to the above here. I think there are many people that go into some combat encounters wanting basically just to humiliate a mouthy opponent, and some times sending someone to the fugue for this is frustrating. This should open the door to smacking down a smacktalker without feeling like a big jerk for either party. But give the smack talker something to think about.

Shrouded Wanderer wrote: ↑

Mon May 11, 2020 2:10 pm

cowboy wrote: ↑

Mon May 11, 2020 1:38 pm

Hmm, I must be misremembering, but I thought it put you are the "DEAD" status like in an arena. If it is just near death and on the ground then I suppose you could!

Turn off subdual and smash em again. It works.


Personally I dont think PvP is gonna happen any more than it already does. And id go so far as to say that the people that'll use this the most will use it as a tool for RP to continue after a fight, without having to go through the OOC process of asking permission for a raise and the potential for that.


Along with the added tool of being able to smash someone again to death if they are being a Butt even after defeat.


This will be a great tool. I hope it works out as I think its exactly what a good amount of people want.



I will say, if there is an increase of anything, cordor should have some good ole fashioned tavern brawls.... Just cuz you know... Thats just good ole family fun there.


"The team's concerns couldnt be more legit. But for what it's worth, they'll probably deal with less reports of bad pvp at the very least. I really think its going to change Arelith big time and there's no change so big that has only good affects."


Hard agree to the above here. I think there are many people that go into some combat encounters wanting basically just to humiliate a mouthy opponent, and some times sending someone to the fugue for this is frustrating. This should open the door to smacking down a smacktalker without feeling like a big jerk for either party. But give the smack talker something to think about.

This is all good points, but again remember. Subudal isn't 'heehee pillow fight!' It is, and I can't stress this enough, Beating someone to within an inch of their life. Bar brawls are fine occasionaly, but keep in mind again this isn't a few light taps on the wrist. This is smashing a barstool over someones head.

Yeah it's not murder, but I'd still hope that whatever pc guard are about would treat it with the seriousness one would expect of a situation where someone was beaten into near unconciousness.

The GrumpyCat wrote: ↑

Mon May 11, 2020 3:28 pm

Shrouded Wanderer wrote: ↑

Mon May 11, 2020 2:10 pm

cowboy wrote: ↑

Mon May 11, 2020 1:38 pm

Hmm, I must be misremembering, but I thought it put you are the "DEAD" status like in an arena. If it is just near death and on the ground then I suppose you could!

Turn off subdual and smash em again. It works.


Personally I dont think PvP is gonna happen any more than it already does. And id go so far as to say that the people that'll use this the most will use it as a tool for RP to continue after a fight, without having to go through the OOC process of asking permission for a raise and the potential for that.


Along with the added tool of being able to smash someone again to death if they are being a Butt even after defeat.


This will be a great tool. I hope it works out as I think its exactly what a good amount of people want.



I will say, if there is an increase of anything, cordor should have some good ole fashioned tavern brawls.... Just cuz you know... Thats just good ole family fun there.


"The team's concerns couldnt be more legit. But for what it's worth, they'll probably deal with less reports of bad pvp at the very least. I really think its going to change Arelith big time and there's no change so big that has only good affects."


Hard agree to the above here. I think there are many people that go into some combat encounters wanting basically just to humiliate a mouthy opponent, and some times sending someone to the fugue for this is frustrating. This should open the door to smacking down a smacktalker without feeling like a big jerk for either party. But give the smack talker something to think about.

This is all good points, but again remember. Subudal isn't 'heehee pillow fight!' It is, and I can't stress this enough, Beating someone to within an inch of their life. Bar brawls are fine occasionaly, but keep in mind again this isn't a few light taps on the wrist. This is smashing a barstool over someones head.

Yeah it's not murder, but I'd still hope that whatever pc guard are about would treat it with the seriousness one would expect of a situation where someone was beaten into near unconciousness.

Oh for sure. Id imagine "Greivoust assault" would be the charge there.

Besides, a barfight isnt a barfight without the cops storming the place and arresting everyone.


Also -pillowfight when?

Take it more seriously than "grievous assault."

Pretend you are beating someone so badly there is a high probability they could die from their wounds (unlikely due to Arelith and plethora of healing magic and divine aid but still).

This is Obi Wan leaving Anakin to (presumably) die on Mustafar.

The mechanics of this subdual mode is not to "knock them unconscious" it is put them into a state of inaction and near death. You are simply refusing to strike a killing blow. We are not dealing with nonlethal hitpoints or any other abstraction.

Whether you crit for 200 in subdual mode or not, you are still critting for 200 Hit Points. The only thing this effects is the outcome of your target who has 190 HP.

Lets not pretend there is no great deal of violence here, because there is. This is not "tavern brawl subdual mode" , this is "I wont kill you but I wont save you batman subsual mode."

The GrumpyCat wrote: ↑

Mon May 11, 2020 12:10 pm

If this does become as said - a chaotic warzone where pvp doesn't matter cos 'lol it's only subdual' then I assure you, it will be removed.

I think it would make more sense to remove the offenders, rather than the system. That's kind of a big red "I don't care about RP at all" flag.