Hexblade Rework Feedback Megathread

[Ordo.Lupus]

I tried doing a gold dwarf 26/4 Hex/EKD
51 AB total
25 BAB
7 base strength mod
6 strength bonus
1 WF
2 eWF
1 prowess
2 iron stance
2 twohanded
5 curse
(+2-6 intimidate/taunt)

I'm not even going to bother doing AC math because it's going to be on the very low end. Your best hope is that your 20-30% DI and some DR can keep you alive juuust long enough to get a succesful IKD. And I'm not sure that Hexblades are such great damage dealers. It's always going to be a choice between debuff (AB, skill, save, DI) and damage from hex.

[AstralUniverse]

In the meanwhile, a pure hexblade has like 50-53 ab and effectively 56-59 with hex, is not self CCed by iron stance (which makes landing the KD on a Hexed target that much harder, because they just walk away from you), dies a bit faster when focused down but kills way faster in turn. Which is yet another example for why not to multiclass.

Also, for hex/curses you normally take hypocrisy, ineptitude (for KD) Neglect (free epic weapon spec, kinda), and then curse of life and you also use two bonus epic feats for epic weapon focus and epic prowess because you're taking great str x4. which leaves you one free feat for flavor that goes to, probably, Hallucinations or some +2 damage curse.

[Watchful Glare]

I'm not sure what the issue is. There is always going to be one class where standing in front of it and slugging it out is a bad idea because you'll likely get whooped, unless certain niche solutions are implemented.

[AstralUniverse]

I'm not sure what the issue is. There is always going to be one class where standing in front of it and slugging it out is a bad idea because you'll likely get whooped, unless certain niche solutions are implemented.

The issue arises when one class feature contradicts another class feature on a strategic level. Hexblade wants to stick to you and spam KD, and if you cripple your own movement speed for another class's feature, you're literally shooting yourself in the foot in that case.

[Archnon]

I'm not sure what the issue is. There is always going to be one class where standing in front of it and slugging it out is a bad idea because you'll likely get whooped, unless certain niche solutions are implemented.

The issue arises when one class feature contradicts another class feature on a strategic level. Hexblade wants to stick to you and spam KD, and if you cripple your own movement speed for another class's feature, you're literally shooting yourself in the foot in that case.

You can take defender dip for the 20 percent DI with no intention of using iron stance. 30 seconds is a long time against a hexblade.

[AstralUniverse]

so you go 26 hexblade instead of 30 hexblade for 20% DI? Dont do that, it's bad.

[Good Character]

so you go 26 hexblade instead of 30 hexblade for 20% DI? Dont do that, it's bad.

Believe he means EKD's Safeguard III.

Possibly some merit to a 15/15 split for DI up to 39~44 with 11 DR (or maybe 19 with EDR), but there are better builds out there.

[AstralUniverse]

At 15/15 I think we're far shifted away from a shot-gun pvp build into an immovable rock. I'd consider building towards EDR with that split, but I'm not even sure Hexblade as a class is a good choice there. In fact, I struggle to find 'optimal' uses for this class outside of: 30 hexblade 2hander, 27/3 bg with scimitar and more defensive curse/hex setup (possibly dex based, with curse of sacrifice), and several melee PM builds simply best done with a full bab arcane class.

[Good Character]

5 Bard/15 Hex/10 RDD.

AB hits 54 and AC hits 57. Damage hits 51 on average.

[a shrouded figure]

Just some follow-up regarding curses / hexes-

Curse of Sacrifice is good, probably never an argument to skip it.

Hex of Duality is actually kinda nice even just for yourself.

Hypo + Perm Pos and +4 Temp Neg tested

Without Duality-
non crit, 2x
Normal: 6 pos 6 neg (as expected)
Defensive Essences: 2 pos 2 neg

Crit, 2x
12 pos 12 neg
7 pos 7 neg

With duality
Non crit
7 pos 7 neg
3 pos 3 neg

Crit,
15! Pos 15! Neg
10 pos 10 neg

So what we’re seeing is hex of duality pumping crits by +2 dmg yielding a total bonus of 6 damage from duality on crits in lieu of the assumed +4 damage on crits when utilizing positive and negative essences.

Of course this same thing can be said for elemental decay.

It’s a small amount but I figured I would point it out.

[AstralUniverse]

I mean... 9/10 times I'd take prowess, epic weapon focus, and slap two more great str through it, or just one, depending on Race et cetra. Then grab Neglect and Sacrifice. Dont neglect Neglect, ever. Then in 1/10 times I happen to be using some weapon... like blade of elements, or that scythe with 2d6 acid, or that Katana with +6 negative. Then Elemental Decay or Duality seem nicer.

[a shrouded figure]

Assuming no misses ever-

Basin Bronze Scythe : 99.3
Basin Bronze Falchion : 99.61
GRuned Spiteful Scythe : 99.74

That’s with duality, neglect, hypo

Add in misses and I would probably have to argue that Scythe is a tiny bit better but I’m too lazy to crunch those numbers and frankly .3 /percent/ difference hardly seems relevant- I’d say go with your aesthetic

[garrbear758]

Thanks for all the feedback everyone.

I don't know when I'll get around to it, and it probably won't be anytime soon, but I have some minor changes for hexblade planned:

Soon(tm):
1. Fix another exploit

Shorter term (but probably not anytime soon still):
1. Remove the STR prereqs on everything since UBAB is basically gone.
2. Make curse of sacrifice a toggleable ability
3. Change curse of ineptitude from -2 skills per 5 hexblade levels to -1 skills per 5 hexblade levels

Longer term projects:
1. Make hex of acedia more viable
2. Tweak the elemental curses to be more viable (I don't even know how I want to do this yet. I'd like to give them something besides just more damage, but not anything that makes them necessary picks.)
3. Make the epic feats more attractive.

Super long term:
1. Reactivate maledictum of worms. This will involve an ingame quest and probably have some sort of significant "cost" for taking it. I'm not really ready to talk about details beyond that yet, and we still have areas to build. This is pretty low priority so it's been kind of shelved for awhile, but I'd like to get around to it eventually.

[Waldo52]

I'm sorry if I posted this already. I remember putting some more thoughts together about the hexblade, but I don't think I wound up sharing.

For me the best feedback I can give on the class is that it doesn't really keep in any lane in terms of mechanics and flavor.

-The lack of real armor means that blackguards and evil fighters/ barbarians/ knights /cavaliers fit the evil knight look better.

-4th level casting means just about anything else magical does the evil mage thing better

-IN FACT, the existence of evil clerics and spellswords mean that other classes do the evil caster/warrior hybrid much better. The latter even has a familiar and can get a glowy red sword.

-The skillset has been made a bit better, but still isn't particularly great. The addition of Use Traps was excellent, I really advocated for that on the forums and was so happy to see it implemented. However, this is not a particularly "skilly" class.

Additionally it's a fairly pigeonholed class. Melee Is mandatory as being an archer or primary spellcaster are not going to happen. Every build I see posted emphasizes strength. So while the hexblade probably isn't a weak class it does not have a terribly unique identity or many different build options that look different from each other. This I think is what makes it hard for me to commit to making one.

I really think that giving hexblades hide, move silently and more skill points would open things up. Now there's dexterity synergy. Now the already useful strength builds, even the ones who don't take hide and move silently, have enough skill ranks that there's a decent reason to choose this over an aesthetically identical and stronger spellsword.

With a couple tiny tweaks the hexblade could be made into an arcane ranger, carrying the whole Class over from the realm of redundant to compelling.

[Good Character]

Not trying to pick on you, but there's a need to address your points before hexblade teeters between life and death similar to monk and spellsword.

-The lack of real armor means that blackguards and evil fighters/ barbarians/ knights /cavaliers fit the evil knight look better.

Aesthetically they have some great armor. Mechanically they have the best armor. They can also pick the Heavy proficiency as a feat or multiclass into a class with the proficiency while still being able to utilize their hexes and curses.

-4th level casting means just about anything else magical does the evil mage thing better

-IN FACT, the existence of evil clerics and spellswords mean that other classes do the evil caster/warrior hybrid much better. The latter even has a familiar and can get a glowy red sword.

I would hope a mage would do far better magically than a melee-based class.

I agree that more than a hexblade a cleric could do the evil-stereotype better. Though, that requires them to herald an evil god and cast blatantly evil spells (i.e. necromancy). Hexblade, however, is not far off from the level of evil that specific cleric can provide. A class whose abilities emulate such a torturous, malicious intent that it can both drain your ability to fight and desire to defend yourself, while also making any attempt to defend yourself futile.

A spellsword can neither touch the hexblade or cleric as far as evil. Also, a hexblade has both a familiar and the ability to have a glowy red sword (with essences).

Additionally it's a fairly pigeonholed class. Melee Is mandatory as being an archer or primary spellcaster are not going to happen. Every build I see posted emphasizes strength. So while the hexblade probably isn't a weak class it does not have a terribly unique identity or many different build options that look different from each other. This I think is what makes it hard for me to commit to making one.

This appears contradictory of what you mentioned before. It seems you wanted it pigeonholed into being an "evil knight". Not sure if that was your intent.

There are also multiple DEX-based builds. It's the dual-wield ones that are hard to execute due to feat starvation. (And thank heavens that's the case).

I really think that giving hexblades hide, move silently and more skill points would open things up. Now there's dexterity synergy. Now the already useful strength builds, even the ones who don't take hide and move silently, have enough skill ranks that there's a decent reason to choose this over an aesthetically identical and stronger spellsword.

Personally, I do not see hide and move silently fitting with the stereotype hexblades were meant to emulate (i.e. evil knight, as you put it well). More skill points would always be appreciated, however.

I agree that hexblade is extremely similar to spellswords, but they are far superior to them. Spellswords act as melee-supports. The hexblade is that but far, far better on both fronts.

With a couple tiny tweaks the hexblade could be made into an arcane ranger, carrying the whole Class over from the realm of redundant to compelling.

Allowing a hexblade to be an efficient archer would be absolutely broken. Imagine being hexed from an infinite range, then Called Shot into oblivion after losing 6 AC and 6 Discipline (or currently 12). Immediately die to huge Curse damage.

[Red_Wharf]

(Plans)

Any chance we could see Curse Weapon not disappearing when unequipping the "cursed" weapon? It is awkward because recasting it removes any temporary essences the weapon previously had and if you don't have your weapon equipped right before PvP or PvE starts, your character is at a disadvantage that no other class currently suffers from.

[Waldo52]

Not trying to pick on you, but there's a need to address your points before hexblade teeters between life and death similar to monk and spellsword.

-The lack of real armor means that blackguards and evil fighters/ barbarians/ knights /cavaliers fit the evil knight look better.

Aesthetically they have some great armor. Mechanically they have the best armor. They can also pick the Heavy proficiency as a feat or multiclass into a class with the proficiency while still being able to utilize their hexes and curses.

-4th level casting means just about anything else magical does the evil mage thing better

-IN FACT, the existence of evil clerics and spellswords mean that other classes do the evil caster/warrior hybrid much better. The latter even has a familiar and can get a glowy red sword.

I would hope a mage would do far better magically than a melee-based class.

I agree that more than a hexblade a cleric could do the evil-stereotype better. Though, that requires them to herald an evil god and cast blatantly evil spells (i.e. necromancy). Hexblade, however, is not far off from the level of evil that specific cleric can provide. A class whose abilities emulate such a torturous, malicious intent that it can both drain your ability to fight and desire to defend yourself, while also making any attempt to defend yourself futile.

A spellsword can neither touch the hexblade or cleric as far as evil. Also, a hexblade has both a familiar and the ability to have a glowy red sword (with essences).

Additionally it's a fairly pigeonholed class. Melee Is mandatory as being an archer or primary spellcaster are not going to happen. Every build I see posted emphasizes strength. So while the hexblade probably isn't a weak class it does not have a terribly unique identity or many different build options that look different from each other. This I think is what makes it hard for me to commit to making one.

This appears contradictory of what you mentioned before. It seems you wanted it pigeonholed into being an "evil knight". Not sure if that was your intent.

There are also multiple DEX-based builds. It's the dual-wield ones that are hard to execute due to feat starvation. (And thank heavens that's the case).

I really think that giving hexblades hide, move silently and more skill points would open things up. Now there's dexterity synergy. Now the already useful strength builds, even the ones who don't take hide and move silently, have enough skill ranks that there's a decent reason to choose this over an aesthetically identical and stronger spellsword.

Personally, I do not see hide and move silently fitting with the stereotype hexblades were meant to emulate (i.e. evil knight, as you put it well). More skill points would always be appreciated, however.

I agree that hexblade is extremely similar to spellswords, but they are far superior to them. Spellswords act as melee-supports. The hexblade is that but far, far better on both fronts.

With a couple tiny tweaks the hexblade could be made into an arcane ranger, carrying the whole Class over from the realm of redundant to compelling.

Allowing a hexblade to be an efficient archer would be absolutely broken. Imagine being hexed from an infinite range, then Called Shot into oblivion after losing 6 AC and 6 Discipline (or currently 12). Immediately die to huge Curse damage.

I AM VANQUISHED.

[Drowboy]

2. Tweak the elemental curses to be more viable (I don't even know how I want to do this yet. I'd like to give them something besides just more damage, but not anything that makes them necessary picks.)

Can NWN detect crits? I feel like I've seen somewhere it can't, but if it can: Riders for elemental abilities on confirmed crit, scaling inverse to base crit range? (or scaling to base crit mod, I guess.)

Crit with fire on does a weak enemy-on-fire effect, electric does a small aoe of weak electrical damage, etc. Maybe a cold crit gives you a weak, short duration bit of DR/+(curse weapon ench).

They'd have to be relatively small effects, I think, since you could really pile them on if you wanted to.

[Good Character]

1. Remove the STR prereqs on everything since UBAB is basically gone.

Naturally a class like this is going to be difficult to balance between STR and DEX, but could we STR-based builds get something that make it worthwhile to go strength? If the STR requirements were removed, DEX easily surpasses in AC, damage per round, and equals AB.

2. Make curse of sacrifice a toggleable ability

Think we could go further and make it to where you could toggle between vamp regeneration and doing more damage so we could avoid the damage incurred when Curse of Sacrifice is active?