Post
by CNS » Thu Nov 26, 2020 12:12 pm
I've spent a fair amount of time thinking about this one and taken a fair bit of input from others.
But really, I think we're probably approaching this one the wrong way.
Let’s look at the basics.
1) Str builds are damage builds in nwn. Always have been. They get high AB and high damage output.
2) Dex builds are tanky in nwn. Always have been. They get huge AC and deal far less damage or rely on things like sneak attacks.
We should also look at what our ideal outcome would be. A properly built and geared dex build against a properly built and geared str build. Ideally, we should end up in both winning some of the time. Maybe differences in the exact makeup of the build might swing the %'s some and player skill will always play a part but the dex build tries to survive long enough to whittle down the strength build's HP and the str build want to get in and finish it quickly with neither strategy being hugely more likely to win.
What we don't want are the two extremes. Those being that defensive builds can't stand up to the strength builds onslaught and just crumple, that leads to a shotgun barb/wm style meta or that dex builds can't build to a point of virtual immunity, which leads to something like we have now, perhaps it can go a little worse.
So how do you balance these?
Two ways. Getting forensic on AB, HB, APR, DR, DI and AC numbers, which I think has been looked at for the last 9 pages. Or, situational flat-footing.
Let’s take a look at how a 75AC div rogue gets its AC. Since 75AC in e-dodge is considered fairly close to untouchable.
Base 10
Armor (Rogue Leathers) - Base 2, Dex 6, Enchant 4, Dodge light AC 6 (Total of 18)
Shield 6
Deflection 4 (Shield Pot)
Natural 4 (Barkskin)
Haste 4 (Blinding Speed)
Boots 1
Mage Amor 1
Divine Shield 8 or 9
Tumble 6
Armor Skin 2
Improved Expertise 10
Line that up against a standard strength build (lets say AB of 50 for arguments sake) in an arena and let them just bash each other and it never loses.
But, flat footing it removes the 6 tumble AC as well as any dodge AC, so your 8 or 9 from divine shield, 4 from haste, 1 boots and 1 mage armor, and 6 from lightly armored. That’s a loss of 26 AC while flat footed (There is a dodge AC cap of 20 that these builds have to flirt around so some ways of adding all that up may not always be right in this post, I haven't been meticulous in ensuring it doesn't breach that cap). Resulting in around 50AC with epic dodge, which is now eminently hittable.
An alternative is if the rogue doesn't wear rogue leathers and just relies on their dex bonus and cloth armor. They might lose 1 AC overall but don't lose 6 dodge if they are flat footed. That would leave them around 55AC with epic dodge when flat footed.
This is how dex should be balanced. The strength-based fighter is looking to flat foot the dex to be able to hit them and get damage in. The dex is looking to avoid that and whittle down the strength build.
Not too long ago Dex never used to rule the roost, the meta was the reverse of now. Can you imagine playing a 20/7/3 WM now? What's changed?
Several things. First, we had the lore/umd changes and timestop nerfs. That used to be a fantastic way to flat-foot dex builds. Now you can't do that due to 1) getting the lore to cast the scroll and 2) even if you could use it, timestop doesn't allow damage or status effects.
Then we nerfed knockdown, while you're knocked down you are flat-footed. However, we've changed how knockdown works now, you have to kill the enemy in the less than one round they are down otherwise they will get up, trigger IE and hold W and that 75AC and dex's natively longer haste (blinding speed) means you will struggle to get another chance. And remember, e-dodge exists, your first hit actually misses.
We also have the option of using Word of Faith to blind them. Being blind will also flat-foot you. However, we have a lot of SR gear in the game, as well as SR races that make scroll casting it iffy. I believe the 26 SR you get from the helm makes a scroll WoF have about a 50% chance to land for reference. WoF and blinds also suffer from "I can just hold W and you can't stop me running away" syndrome.
Along similar lines is Balgorn’s, which is very unreliable being defeated by SR and there’s no guarantee the dex build will fail the opposed strength check. Its also defeated by things like minor globe of invulnerability.
The final element is stealth. Quickly flashing hips (not exactly a staple on strength builds) or downing a potion of invisibility. Obviously, invisibility is negated by see invisibility/true sight.
We also gave dex more avenues for damage. Expanding out UBAB, swashbuckler, etc. We lowered the weight of many items for QoL reasons making low strength builds more viable. We also introduced lots of +disc equipment and I'm sure we can all point to a few questionable items that are available.
We've obviously taken steps to rectify some of this and try and swing it back towards a middle ground. Disc has been reduced across items so Dex builds can't get sky high scores quite as easily and Balgorn’s has had dex removed as a part of the check (it used to check against str or dex whatever was higher).
But this is the crux of the issue. For me this is where the balance lies. If you can flat foot someone too easily, it becomes a strength meta, if you cannot it becomes a dex meta. Right now, its incredibly hard to flat foot a dexterity build, and even if you do, you have about 6 seconds to kill them before they get up and can run away, heal up and come back.
-Another aside, this also incentivises shotgun style builds, if I can get lucky and down a true strike and get two flurries to knock you down (e-dodge and why would a dex ever go near a strength build doing that though before the true strike wore off). I have the rest of that round to kill you or you're up and off and the game right now is very slippery, I can't stop you running away, drinking heal potions and coming back (or stealthing the second you hit a corner and using kits).
In conclusion strength builds need two things to become competitive again. Ways to flat foot someone, carefully balanced to not go too far, and ways to stop "I press IE and hold W until I get far enough away to start healing and then come back". That function used to be things like timestop and knockdown, they were in their original forms too much, but the right answer I feel isn't where we are now.