New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

An area to facilitate free-form feedback on systems (in-game or out) related to Arelith.

Moderators: Forum Moderators, Active DMs, Contributors

Heroic Spirit
Arelith Silver Supporter
Arelith Silver Supporter
Posts: 95
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2018 3:13 am

Re: New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by Heroic Spirit » Tue Nov 10, 2020 8:21 pm

Drowboy wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 7:04 pm
KeldonDonovans wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 6:54 pm
I saw this in the suggestion forums, but figured I'd point it out here too.

Monkey Grip. It allows a character to dual wield weapons that are considered "Large". So a human could dual wield greatswords.

I might suggest that some weapons be left out as "not one-handable" due to the nature of their design (RP reason) and also balance (Here's looking at you, Scythe, as nobody wants a dual-wielding scythe WM coming their way.)
that's not what monkey grip does
Monkey grip lets you use weapons a size category larger than you should.
For instance, a Large longsword (a one-handed weapon for a Large creature) is considered a two-handed weapon for a Medium creature that does not have this feat. For a Medium creature that has this feat, it is still considered a one-handed weapon. You can wield a larger light weapon as a light weapon, or a larger two-handed weapon in two hands. You cannot wield a larger weapon in your off hand, and you cannot use this feat with a double weapon.
https://nwn2.fandom.com/wiki/Monkey_Grip

Per nwn 2, it looks like it does both. Can two-hand one size larger at a -2 penalty to hit and can hold a regular two-handed weapon (for your race) with one hand at -2 to hit.

Xerah
Posts: 2036
Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2015 5:39 pm

Re: New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by Xerah » Tue Nov 10, 2020 8:38 pm

I have no idea why people are so fixated on monkey grip; it is a pretty terrible feat.
Katernin Bersk, Chancellor of Divination; Kerri Amblecrown, Paladin of Milil; Xull'kacha Auvry'rae, Redcap Fey-pacted; Sadia yr Thuravya el Bhirax, Priestess of Umberlee; Lissa Whitehorn, Archmage of Artifice

Heroic Spirit
Arelith Silver Supporter
Arelith Silver Supporter
Posts: 95
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2018 3:13 am

Re: New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by Heroic Spirit » Tue Nov 10, 2020 9:27 pm

Xerah wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 8:38 pm
I have no idea why people are so fixated on monkey grip; it is a pretty terrible feat.
I imagine in the base game, there are powerful items that players can make use of. Per Arelith, where every item has a M. Damask variant, it's definitely a weak feat. So in that case, it would probably for thematic purposes.

KeldonDonovans
Posts: 114
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2020 12:03 am

Re: New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by KeldonDonovans » Tue Nov 10, 2020 11:03 pm

Drowboy wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 7:04 pm
KeldonDonovans wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 6:54 pm
I saw this in the suggestion forums, but figured I'd point it out here too.

Monkey Grip. It allows a character to dual wield weapons that are considered "Large". So a human could dual wield greatswords.

I might suggest that some weapons be left out as "not one-handable" due to the nature of their design (RP reason) and also balance (Here's looking at you, Scythe, as nobody wants a dual-wielding scythe WM coming their way.)
that's not what monkey grip does
Monkey grip lets you use weapons a size category larger than you should.
For instance, a Large longsword (a one-handed weapon for a Large creature) is considered a two-handed weapon for a Medium creature that does not have this feat. For a Medium creature that has this feat, it is still considered a one-handed weapon. You can wield a larger light weapon as a light weapon, or a larger two-handed weapon in two hands. You cannot wield a larger weapon in your off hand, and you cannot use this feat with a double weapon.
Huh. I must have the wrong feat. I know in the old paperback 3e extension books had a feat I used to take that let me dual wield greatswords. Regardless, my suggestion is for a feat that allows the dual wielding of weapons your race considers two handed. Perhaps the Monkey Grip you are referring to could also be added, and be a prereq, so that anyone wishing to dual wield large swords would have to dedicate two feats to it.

User avatar
Jagel
Posts: 1250
Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2014 3:50 pm
Location: Scandinavia

Re: New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by Jagel » Wed Nov 11, 2020 7:22 am

Here is monkey grip on Nwn2 wiki
https://nwn2.fandom.com/wiki/Monkey_Gri ... -app=false

Seems you are both right

User avatar
Oshido
Posts: 142
Joined: Sun Feb 21, 2016 6:09 pm

Re: New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by Oshido » Wed Nov 11, 2020 4:08 pm

I really like Second Wind and Armor Mastery. My lvl 30 fighter would get a rebuild or no?
:evil:

User avatar
Maladus
Posts: 808
Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2015 4:43 am

Re: New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by Maladus » Fri Nov 13, 2020 6:37 pm

Has any thought been given to improving Overwhelming Critical? It's kind of lackluster as an epic feat and could be an easy win for strength builds.

Archnon
Posts: 854
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2019 8:05 am

Re: New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by Archnon » Sat Nov 14, 2020 1:55 am

So, we are way past tl;dr for me on this thread, but I am going to suggest something, knowing that it may have already been suggested and i just didn't read it so sorry.


Please redo Ranger dual-wield AC and tie it to strength or con. Switch it up to match parry or swashbuckler so 1 + 1 per 5 levels in ranger capped at +6. However, tie it to your strength or constitution modifier. So to get the full benefit you need 12 strength or 12 constitution.

Give a good alternative to monk that still allowed dual wielding and let rangers go strength, or dex+con, instead of just always dipping monk for AC.

AlonelyBard
Posts: 22
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2020 11:13 pm

Re: New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by AlonelyBard » Sun Nov 15, 2020 8:07 am

I was actually hoping to suggest this towards the Dwarven Defender, but it works just as well as a general STR/CON feat
Fortification
Like the ability in 3.5, 25% chance to negate a crit, making it just a normal attack, this obviously would apply to sneak attack
Epic Fortification
Boosts the 25% to a 50% chance

Halibutthead
Posts: 187
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2018 5:56 pm

Re: New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by Halibutthead » Sun Nov 15, 2020 2:49 pm

i really kind of like the idea of having a progression of feats for flat DR, and then a progression of feats for something like crit negation.

malcolm_mountainslayer
Posts: 1043
Joined: Thu May 16, 2019 5:08 am

Re: New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Sun Nov 15, 2020 7:53 pm

overzied two weapon fighting, as per my suggestion which was neither approved nor disapproved, would be nice. It can technically benefit dex users too, but is more primarily for str users that want a hand a daul wielding stuff like dwarven rune axes.

Wings of Peace
Posts: 91
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2018 3:09 pm

Re: New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by Wings of Peace » Tue Nov 17, 2020 7:27 am

I think the assumption for any changes made to mighty rage should be that it will end up on a Barb/WM build, not that I'm against that. 19 con might be a stretch for a human build but gnomes and dwarves can hit that pretty easily. A wild dwarf barb 20/WM 7/Druid 3 could even hit 19 con while still netting around 52ab when they're outdoors.

User avatar
kinginyellow
Posts: 95
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2017 11:15 pm
Location: Carcosa

Re: New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by kinginyellow » Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:24 am

How to Buff STR without the need for A: New Feats, B: New Itemization or C: Class reworks.

Remove discipline from the game, removing the discipline tax from literally every build in existance. Turn Knockdown into a full round action rather than an attack with an AB modifier, make it target CMD instead of AC and introduce CMD as a stat.

It doesn't completely destroy Dex builds because it means the STR build needs a friend with him to consistently hurt the Dex Build. The Dex Build likely still has HIPS and innate haste from Blinding Speed to disengage if they survive the KD as well, but it adresses the elephant in the room with the balance that exists in Tabletop to deal with this sort of nonsense.

Edit: Alternatively do not introduce CMD and just make it an opposed stat check. Either or works, it's better than the current ridiculous % chances a STR build has to hit a dex build with epic dodge without introducing too much more to the mix that could break the game.

It will synergize with the perceived intent I see of making more skills do more useful things and make less skills "meta" and must-have, meaning people might actually take climb because they don't have to take discipline anymore.

Suddenly mobs become a lot more dangerous in dungeons, and it encourages people to party up more often. A Pit Fiend with 44 base STR landing a knockdown on someone running Avernus is deadly, and is more likely to happen when it targets CMD, or their STR stat (or Dex stat for dexers), than if they have to land the actual hit against someone that's both concealed and high on AC from whatever meta source they're taking for AC.

Dippers also have to sacrifice higher STR or DEX stat than someone who's gone full in on that stat. And even if they can still succeed against a knockdown, they are less likely to do so than someone who's gone all in on that stat. So it's still a reasonable nerf for div and monk dips without having to make changes across all of these classes and feats to adress the problem.

Size modifiers will finally matter more, and some of those races almost no one takes with their awards (minotaur, ogre) will actually be more useful since they can get a total of +8 on their knockdown check against medium targets when their size and improved knockdown is taken into account. On the same token, mobs that are large and higher will be more dangerous in melee across the board without needing to have their statline buffed, and it'll be less likely for me to see a land-charging Cavalier/CoT knocking down a dragon.

redhawx
Posts: 91
Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2015 9:51 am

Re: New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by redhawx » Thu Nov 26, 2020 9:48 am

garrbear758 wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 6:48 pm

2: Move EDR 1/2/3 to 19 con.
It would be great if this was implemented now before everyone starts to rebuild their Earthkin-Defenders, a class very likely to make use of Epic Damage Reduction. Unless it has been decided to not implement it?

CNS
Posts: 260
Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2019 4:29 pm

Re: New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by CNS » Thu Nov 26, 2020 12:12 pm

I've spent a fair amount of time thinking about this one and taken a fair bit of input from others.

But really, I think we're probably approaching this one the wrong way.

Let’s look at the basics.

1) Str builds are damage builds in nwn. Always have been. They get high AB and high damage output.

2) Dex builds are tanky in nwn. Always have been. They get huge AC and deal far less damage or rely on things like sneak attacks.

We should also look at what our ideal outcome would be. A properly built and geared dex build against a properly built and geared str build. Ideally, we should end up in both winning some of the time. Maybe differences in the exact makeup of the build might swing the %'s some and player skill will always play a part but the dex build tries to survive long enough to whittle down the strength build's HP and the str build want to get in and finish it quickly with neither strategy being hugely more likely to win.

What we don't want are the two extremes. Those being that defensive builds can't stand up to the strength builds onslaught and just crumple, that leads to a shotgun barb/wm style meta or that dex builds can't build to a point of virtual immunity, which leads to something like we have now, perhaps it can go a little worse.

So how do you balance these?

Two ways. Getting forensic on AB, HB, APR, DR, DI and AC numbers, which I think has been looked at for the last 9 pages. Or, situational flat-footing.

Let’s take a look at how a 75AC div rogue gets its AC. Since 75AC in e-dodge is considered fairly close to untouchable.

Base 10
Armor (Rogue Leathers) - Base 2, Dex 6, Enchant 4, Dodge light AC 6 (Total of 18)
Shield 6
Deflection 4 (Shield Pot)
Natural 4 (Barkskin)
Haste 4 (Blinding Speed)
Boots 1
Mage Amor 1
Divine Shield 8 or 9
Tumble 6
Armor Skin 2
Improved Expertise 10

Line that up against a standard strength build (lets say AB of 50 for arguments sake) in an arena and let them just bash each other and it never loses.

But, flat footing it removes the 6 tumble AC as well as any dodge AC, so your 8 or 9 from divine shield, 4 from haste, 1 boots and 1 mage armor, and 6 from lightly armored. That’s a loss of 26 AC while flat footed (There is a dodge AC cap of 20 that these builds have to flirt around so some ways of adding all that up may not always be right in this post, I haven't been meticulous in ensuring it doesn't breach that cap). Resulting in around 50AC with epic dodge, which is now eminently hittable.

An alternative is if the rogue doesn't wear rogue leathers and just relies on their dex bonus and cloth armor. They might lose 1 AC overall but don't lose 6 dodge if they are flat footed. That would leave them around 55AC with epic dodge when flat footed.

This is how dex should be balanced. The strength-based fighter is looking to flat foot the dex to be able to hit them and get damage in. The dex is looking to avoid that and whittle down the strength build.

Not too long ago Dex never used to rule the roost, the meta was the reverse of now. Can you imagine playing a 20/7/3 WM now? What's changed?

Several things. First, we had the lore/umd changes and timestop nerfs. That used to be a fantastic way to flat-foot dex builds. Now you can't do that due to 1) getting the lore to cast the scroll and 2) even if you could use it, timestop doesn't allow damage or status effects.

Then we nerfed knockdown, while you're knocked down you are flat-footed. However, we've changed how knockdown works now, you have to kill the enemy in the less than one round they are down otherwise they will get up, trigger IE and hold W and that 75AC and dex's natively longer haste (blinding speed) means you will struggle to get another chance. And remember, e-dodge exists, your first hit actually misses.

We also have the option of using Word of Faith to blind them. Being blind will also flat-foot you. However, we have a lot of SR gear in the game, as well as SR races that make scroll casting it iffy. I believe the 26 SR you get from the helm makes a scroll WoF have about a 50% chance to land for reference. WoF and blinds also suffer from "I can just hold W and you can't stop me running away" syndrome.

Along similar lines is Balgorn’s, which is very unreliable being defeated by SR and there’s no guarantee the dex build will fail the opposed strength check. Its also defeated by things like minor globe of invulnerability.

The final element is stealth. Quickly flashing hips (not exactly a staple on strength builds) or downing a potion of invisibility. Obviously, invisibility is negated by see invisibility/true sight.

We also gave dex more avenues for damage. Expanding out UBAB, swashbuckler, etc. We lowered the weight of many items for QoL reasons making low strength builds more viable. We also introduced lots of +disc equipment and I'm sure we can all point to a few questionable items that are available.

We've obviously taken steps to rectify some of this and try and swing it back towards a middle ground. Disc has been reduced across items so Dex builds can't get sky high scores quite as easily and Balgorn’s has had dex removed as a part of the check (it used to check against str or dex whatever was higher).

But this is the crux of the issue. For me this is where the balance lies. If you can flat foot someone too easily, it becomes a strength meta, if you cannot it becomes a dex meta. Right now, its incredibly hard to flat foot a dexterity build, and even if you do, you have about 6 seconds to kill them before they get up and can run away, heal up and come back.

-Another aside, this also incentivises shotgun style builds, if I can get lucky and down a true strike and get two flurries to knock you down (e-dodge and why would a dex ever go near a strength build doing that though before the true strike wore off). I have the rest of that round to kill you or you're up and off and the game right now is very slippery, I can't stop you running away, drinking heal potions and coming back (or stealthing the second you hit a corner and using kits).

In conclusion strength builds need two things to become competitive again. Ways to flat foot someone, carefully balanced to not go too far, and ways to stop "I press IE and hold W until I get far enough away to start healing and then come back". That function used to be things like timestop and knockdown, they were in their original forms too much, but the right answer I feel isn't where we are now.

User avatar
-XXX-
Posts: 2113
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 1:49 am

Re: New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by -XXX- » Thu Nov 26, 2020 12:52 pm

Timestop melee was OP - just because it trumped the other OP abilities only serves as a testament to how much of a problem it was.

Its removal merely outlined the other OP abilities that were next in line - div shield and expertise feats (srsly, if armor skin is an epic feat, what business do these feats have to grant an AC bonus higher than 2?)
Nerf those and move on to the next OP ability in the list - bard song/curse song
Favored enemy can also be problematic as it stacks with everything and allows you to bypass most bonus caps, but whether that actually becomes an issue usually depends on how well the attainable gear is balanced towards these caps on.

NWN has been around for 2000 years, we all know what the usual suspects are - this isn't rocket science people!

Red_Wharf
Posts: 192
Joined: Sun May 24, 2020 5:26 am

Re: New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by Red_Wharf » Thu Nov 26, 2020 2:08 pm

-XXX- wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 12:52 pm
Its removal merely outlined the other OP abilities that were next in line - div shield and expertise feats (srsly, if armor skin is an epic feat, what business do these feats have to grant an AC bonus higher than 2?)
Nerf those and move on to the next OP ability in the list
Do you want everyone to play Barbarian Weaponmasters and nothing else? Besides, Armor Skin has no tax, it's 2 free AC. Expertise lowers your AB considerably, Divine Shield requires the investment of another feat and Charisma. Also consider that a build that doesn't invest in Charisma has more ability points to invest in other places, like Constitution and Strength, and that Divine Shield AC is temporary, requires time to activate, has limited uses, and can disappear when the character becomes flatfooted. Armor Skin doesn't suffer through any of this, that's why its AC bonus is small in comparison.

User avatar
Aren
Contributor
Contributor
Posts: 687
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2017 10:27 pm
Location: GMT+1

Re: New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by Aren » Thu Nov 26, 2020 2:14 pm

Make balagarns ignore SR.

".. the other number that isn't 18." - Jack Oat
".. but- someone is still pumping the brakes sometimes, right? ...right?" - Batcountry


User avatar
garrbear758
Posts: 1521
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2018 4:20 am

Re: New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by garrbear758 » Thu Nov 26, 2020 2:53 pm

Just want to point out here that a Balagarns pot is CL 7, and GSB lowers SR by 5. You can use 2 pots a round.. After breaching, assuming headband of protection, each pot has a 35% chance of working, which is pretty high for something so easily obtainable. It won't work on drow, but it'll work on other dexers using the headband.

Also, minor globe and SR are 14 and 15 on the breach list. A GSB or two is pretty guaranteed to get rid of them unless you're fighting a spellmonk.
You've done it [Garrbear], you've kicked the winemom nest. -Redacted

User avatar
-XXX-
Posts: 2113
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 1:49 am

Re: New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by -XXX- » Thu Nov 26, 2020 4:34 pm

Red_Wharf wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 2:08 pm
-XXX- wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 12:52 pm
Its removal merely outlined the other OP abilities that were next in line - div shield and expertise feats (srsly, if armor skin is an epic feat, what business do these feats have to grant an AC bonus higher than 2?)
Nerf those and move on to the next OP ability in the list
Do you want everyone to play Barbarian Weaponmasters and nothing else? Besides, Armor Skin has no tax, it's 2 free AC. Expertise lowers your AB considerably, Divine Shield requires the investment of another feat and Charisma. Also consider that a build that doesn't invest in Charisma has more ability points to invest in other places, like Constitution and Strength, and that Divine Shield AC is temporary, requires time to activate, has limited uses, and can disappear when the character becomes flatfooted. Armor Skin doesn't suffer through any of this, that's why its AC bonus is small in comparison.
So if you can make a list of all the reasons why "AC buffing feats are OK", why are we even having threads like these?

The claim that using expertise is a trade-off is a disingenuous fallacy. As it stands, the situation is mostly that
a) the character's hitting their target only on 20s so the AB debuff doesn't matter (most often the case of PvP)
b) the character's hitting their target so reliably that they don't care about the AB debuff anyway (usually the case of PvE and when power attack is used instead, but still)

Divine shield wearing off in the middle of the fight can be an inconvenience, but its duration often outlasts most PvP encounters. Besides, it's not really any investment whatsoever. Most builds that are exploiting it already WANT to heavily invest into charisma for some other primary reason and just somehow happen to get up to +14 AC "by accident". With the gear and magical armors that are available on Arelith, this feat should not exist period.

CNS
Posts: 260
Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2019 4:29 pm

Re: New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by CNS » Thu Nov 26, 2020 5:44 pm

garrbear758 wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 2:53 pm
Just want to point out here that a Balagarns pot is CL 7, and GSB lowers SR by 5. You can use 2 pots a round.. After breaching, assuming headband of protection, each pot has a 35% chance of working, which is pretty high for something so easily obtainable. It won't work on drow, but it'll work on other dexers using the headband.

Also, minor globe and SR are 14 and 15 on the breach list. A GSB or two is pretty guaranteed to get rid of them unless you're fighting a spellmonk.
I get what you're saying but unless the wiki is wrong its not quite that clear cut.

First of all you have to spend a round or two breaching, but lets ignore that as you'll probably want to do it anyway.

Then you have a 35% chance of your pot working. While you can drink 2 pots a round, Balagorn's has a 12 second cooldown between uses - maybe that doesn't apply to potions? I'm not actually sure.

But, if we assume it has a 12 second cooldown, every 2 rounds you have a 35% chance to make the opposed strength check.

The spell doesn't take your strength (which might actually make for an interesting change) but a set strength of 20. So that's 1d20+20 against the targets strength + 1d20 with ties going to the target.

Given the archetype here is a div dex, thats a base strength of 13 (for power attack, for divine feats), assume they used a bulls strength that morning for 5, making 18.

You have a 10% advantage. Which assuming I actually worked that out means 35% of the time, you have a 60% chance of a knockdown, so overall a 21% chance of knocking them down, once every 2 rounds.

User avatar
garrbear758
Posts: 1521
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2018 4:20 am

Re: New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by garrbear758 » Thu Nov 26, 2020 5:53 pm

CNS wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 5:44 pm
garrbear758 wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 2:53 pm
Just want to point out here that a Balagarns pot is CL 7, and GSB lowers SR by 5. You can use 2 pots a round.. After breaching, assuming headband of protection, each pot has a 35% chance of working, which is pretty high for something so easily obtainable. It won't work on drow, but it'll work on other dexers using the headband.

Also, minor globe and SR are 14 and 15 on the breach list. A GSB or two is pretty guaranteed to get rid of them unless you're fighting a spellmonk.
I get what you're saying but unless the wiki is wrong its not quite that clear cut.

First of all you have to spend a round or two breaching, but lets ignore that as you'll probably want to do it anyway.

Then you have a 35% chance of your pot working. While you can drink 2 pots a round, Balagorn's has a 12 second cooldown between uses - maybe that doesn't apply to potions? I'm not actually sure.

But, if we assume it has a 12 second cooldown, every 2 rounds you have a 35% chance to make the opposed strength check.

The spell doesn't take your strength (which might actually make for an interesting change) but a set strength of 20. So that's 1d20+20 against the targets strength + 1d20 with ties going to the target.

Given the archetype here is a div dex, thats a base strength of 13 (for power attack, for divine feats), assume they used a bulls strength that morning for 5, making 18.

You have a 10% advantage. Which assuming I actually worked that out means 35% of the time, you have a 60% chance of a knockdown, so overall a 21% chance of knocking them down, once every 2 rounds.
I'm not saying it's a perfect solution. I was just arguing against removing spell resistance from it. I do actually like the idea of using your PCs strength if greater than 20 though.
You've done it [Garrbear], you've kicked the winemom nest. -Redacted

CNS
Posts: 260
Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2019 4:29 pm

Re: New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by CNS » Thu Nov 26, 2020 6:03 pm

garrbear758 wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 5:53 pm
I'm not saying it's a perfect solution. I was just arguing against removing spell resistance from it. I do actually like the idea of using your PCs strength if greater than 20 though.
Yeah I'll actually go post that in suggestions.

I don't think removing SR is the right answer either, I didn't think I posted any proposal other than the general thrust that the solution is probably in the flat-foot direction than endlessly trying to tweak AC, HP and AB etc.

Although I do think Drow/Svirf just getting "Yeah I'm basically immune to scrolls" is a bit much, that's another discussion.

Edit - ok I can't post the suggestion as the board is closed again.

Red_Wharf
Posts: 192
Joined: Sun May 24, 2020 5:26 am

Re: New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by Red_Wharf » Thu Nov 26, 2020 10:18 pm

-XXX- wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 4:34 pm
So if you can make a list of all the reasons why "AC buffing feats are OK", why are we even having threads like these?
We are having threads like this because Dex builds have been buffed a lot in the last few months, CNS mentioned above a few very good examples of how that happened, and we have to find a way to bring them back in line.

Nerfing Expertise and Divine Shield would affect Dex builds, of course, but that's a nuclear option that's going to blow up Str builds too, and that's how you get everyone to play Barbarian Weaponmasters, archer Rangers, or some other DPS burst damage build.

User avatar
-XXX-
Posts: 2113
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 1:49 am

Re: New Feats for Str Builds - Feedback Needed

Post by -XXX- » Thu Nov 26, 2020 11:42 pm

Red_Wharf wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 10:18 pm
-XXX- wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 4:34 pm
So if you can make a list of all the reasons why "AC buffing feats are OK", why are we even having threads like these?
We are having threads like this because Dex builds have been buffed a lot in the last few months, CNS mentioned above a few very good examples of how that happened, and we have to find a way to bring them back in line.

Nerfing Expertise and Divine Shield would affect Dex builds, of course, but that's a nuclear option that's going to blow up Str builds too, and that's how you get everyone to play Barbarian Weaponmasters, archer Rangers, or some other DPS burst damage build.
Well then they'll need to nerf those too!

The current problem is binary - either you'll have attainable AC values so high that most vetted builds hit them only on a roll of natural 20, or the shotgun meta returns again. We've had several consecutive years during which massive buffs to gear, feats and class abilities had been continually introduced. As a result of this power creep it's pretty much a choice between AC or DPS meta at this point.
I think that nuclear options are much more viable than "Balagarn solutions" to be honest.

Post Reply