Pickpocket update

[Duchess Says]

But pickpocket victims are notified and if there's even a whiff one might be active in a settlement everyone will usually become extremely vigilant. You can't hit ten people in a crowd because they'll be looking for you long before that.

It's not that lucrative a skill. Nobody's getting rich off pickpocketing 2,000 apiece from a handful of level 20s before having to get out of town because they all start looking for you. If you want to turn skill points into easy gold take Appraise, it will make you richer by doing things you were already doing. Or even better, Craft Mastery. Sleight of Hand isn't taken to get rich, it's taken if you want the roller coaster thrill of pulling off a minor crime with the very real chance of getting caught.

[-XXX-]

It's possible to hit 10 people before anybody notices anything and by that time the thief should be long gone - that's 20-30K of EZ money right there.

Also, blade orbs weight 0.2 lbs. IMO they'd be used much more often were they not yet another item that discriminates against non-STR builds.

[magistrasa]

I've seen a guy in disguise walk into a meeting, completely ignore everyone asking him to introduce himself or leave, silently saunter around the table while pickpocketing all 10-15 people present, and then make a a mad dash away. And that wasn't the last of such incidents I experienced - as far as I've been able to tell, that's just the standard operating procedure for pickpockets nowadays.

I'm usually the person sticking up for mechanics that enable theft and I'm usually a huge advocate for thievery and criminal roleplay. But pickpocketing is real stupid now, and you can tell it's real stupid from the fact that it's being used in real stupid ways. Didn't think I'd ever say this, but I'd rather it didn't exist as a mechanic than remain in its current implementation.

[Curve]

That is a clear rule break. Report it.

[AstralUniverse]

I think blade orbs worth more gold via selling to peddler than they save you in a failed PP attempt. If you stack 20 (for example) of them to not lose up to 3k gold, instead of just selling them for over 8k it sort of defeats it's own purpose.

I've long ago accepted that pp exists and that it's fun for some people, for whatever reason, and that there's little to do about it except cranking up Spot into the 70+ (which I'm not gonna ever do anymore in this 'patch'), to detect and kill.

Every once in a while there's someone shouting "Thief! Get him!" and a bunch of by standers look at a running character wondering whether or not they should participate and do something about it at the risk of being accused of pvp with no rp or just ignore it.

Obviously, I dont like this sort of Skill and the kind of interactions it enables (if any, and usually if the PP is successful, then there isnt) but like quarterbreaking, I can understand why it should exist from a perspective of "you sometimes lose stuff in this game and there's bad luck in life. Instead of designing automated systems we let PCs do it for us".

[MRFTW]

In a world where metagaming is the real endboss, why do we have a popup when someone PPs us?

You can just press "I" and figure out if you've been pickpocketed or not.

[Archnon]

In a world where metagaming is the real endboss, why do we have a popup when someone PPs us?

You can just press "I" and figure out if you've been pickpocketed or not.

Not if it comes out of your bank account, which it does.

Though, I'm not disagreeing with you here. I think the message is overkill.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

I've seen a guy in disguise walk into a meeting, completely ignore everyone asking him to introduce himself or leave, silently saunter around the table while pickpocketing all 10-15 people present, and then make a a mad dash away. And that wasn't the last of such incidents I experienced - as far as I've been able to tell, that's just the standard operating procedure for pickpockets nowadays.

I'm usually the person sticking up for mechanics that enable theft and I'm usually a huge advocate for thievery and criminal roleplay. But pickpocketing is real stupid now, and you can tell it's real stupid from the fact that it's being used in real stupid ways. Didn't think I'd ever say this, but I'd rather it didn't exist as a mechanic than remain in its current implementation.

I saw someone doing this but with quarter breaking. They left door they cracked wide open and were hitting every room on the floor, I caught them because my door is trapped and I heard a trap go off. When I opened the door, they had moved onto the next door. It was the lowest effort thief I have ever seen.

As for the Myon meeting, the dude doing it was a halfling slave. They did more than just pickpocket, they sat at the meeting and acted like they belonged there. People were uncomfortable and began to question him, he then ran up and pickpocketed one or two people and ran away quickly. It seemed like the sort of thing where they would find a way to disrupt it regardless, they probably came in to spy and that went south.

[Kuma]

Kill them.

[Archnon]

Kill them.

In-character actions have in character consequences. Ignoring RP, especially in this case, was an in character action given the situation of the meeting.

[Kuma]

Like, I get it. Someone "robbed you of your expensive scarves", that's not really worth disintegrating them. But systematically robbing an entire room while you all awkwardly stumble to your feet and go "s- s- sir? please- a crumb of interaction?"

Just kill them. It's okay. You can do that.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

Like, I get it. Someone "robbed you of your expensive scarves", that's not really worth disintegrating them. But systematically robbing an entire room while you all awkwardly stumble to your feet and go "s- s- sir? please- a crumb of interaction?"

Just kill them. It's okay. You can do that.

They were subdued. While unconscious they were asking where the refreshment table was. I can't remember if they were PKed after or if they lensed. But generally robbing people in a room full of Black Archers tends to not go well.

While searching screenshots I found they also came in and greeted everyone in undercommon. This is not a pickpocket issue, this is someone sent to mess with the elves who happened to use pickpocket to be a dumbass.

[Skibbles]

I wouldn't mind if PP was just removed because it's such a bizarre thing to have as a playable archetype (or looking at the above image you can just put one rank in it and distract a dozen people with nonsense).

Here we have an island full of portals, dragons, gods, wizards, demons, magnificent heroes and dastardly villains - even the 'commoner' crafts items of legendary quality.

Then, for some reason, there are pickpockets. What?

I just don't get it. I think I've only been PP like ten times in like seven years, with nothing particularly exceptional coming out of it, but it doesn't really bother me either. It's just strange that it's a thing.

[Curve]

I don’t understand how having dragons and wizards has anything to do with pp’ers. Do you feel the same about people who make bakers, or any other non-epic or mundane task a character undertakes? PP’ing to me is as much a core part of dnd as is killing goblins.

Also, the halfling in the meeting? That is a guy on a meme mission and should not be part of the conversation, maybe not even on the forums.

[Skibbles]

I don’t understand how having dragons and wizards has anything to do with pp’ers. Do you feel the same about people who make bakers, or any other non-epic or mundane task a character undertakes? PP’ing to me is as much a core part of dnd as is killing goblins.

I don't mind mundane concepts in the game and I'm not sure why I even have to say this.

If someone wants to add baking into their roleplay that's great. If someone wants to just log in and roleplay sleeping, getting up in the middle of the night for a glass of water, then going back to bed again, that's cool too.

But if baking was an active skill that forces other characters to acknowledge their baking skills (or lack thereof) then, again, I don't understand why that is interesting and available to players at large as a story telling element.

[LovelyLightningWitch]

I don’t understand how having dragons and wizards has anything to do with pp’ers. Do you feel the same about people who make bakers, or any other non-epic or mundane task a character undertakes? PP’ing to me is as much a core part of dnd as is killing goblins.

I don't mind mundane concepts in the game and I'm not sure why I even have to say this.

If someone wants to add baking into their roleplay that's great. If someone wants to just log in and roleplay sleeping, getting up in the middle of the night for a glass of water, then going back to bed again, that's cool too.

But if baking was an active skill that forces other characters to acknowledge their baking skills (or lack thereof) then, again, I don't understand why that is interesting and available to players at large as a story telling element.

It enhances the simulation, therefore it is good. Tools should be focused on how well they enhance simulation/immersion, not whether they're relevant to story telling.

[Skibbles]

It enhances the simulation, therefore it is good.

Does it really, though? Here we are on page 8, and there's certainly not a consensus on how much PP is enhancing the game, if it is at all.

So I imagine it in reverse - what would we lose if PP suddenly disappeared? What if it was removed, completely unannounced, and the discovery of its removal was left exclusively for people to discover on their own?

Would most players even notice, on their own, that it was missing? Would they?

[magistrasa]

Hilariously, I wasn't even talking about the Myon meeting. That was just one of three similar incidents I've personally witnessed. Heard of even more.

I liked the old system because there was always a chance of stealing some special roleplay item from someone's inventory that'd lead to more roleplay in the future. One time I stole a ring from someone that signified them as a member of some secret order - that was just really cool. And now that's not possible. I hear you can still steal quarter keys at least, but I've had loose keys in my inventory while being pickpocketed and never seen them taken. Pickpocketing is so uninteresting now, so it's no wonder a good amount of the people who invest in it are pretty uninteresting themselves.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

Hilariously, I wasn't even talking about the Myon meeting. That was just one of three similar incidents I've personally witnessed. Heard of even more.

Oh goodness LOL

[Archnon]

Hilariously, I wasn't even talking about the Myon meeting. That was just one of three similar incidents I've personally witnessed. Heard of even more.

I liked the old system because there was always a chance of stealing some special roleplay item from someone's inventory that'd lead to more roleplay in the future. One time I stole a ring from someone that signified them as a member of some secret order - that was just really cool. And now that's not possible. I hear you can still steal quarter keys at least, but I've had loose keys in my inventory while being pickpocketed and never seen them taken. Pickpocketing is so uninteresting now, so it's no wonder a good amount of the people who invest in it are pretty uninteresting themselves.

Here is the thing .... and this will always be the thing whether we are talking about pickpocketing, quarterbreaking, disguises, slave/capture Rp, or the even latest and greatest PVP stomp build ..... when it comes to creating conflict between players there are those who are going to do it to 'win' and there are those who are going to do it to have a collective experience that everyone has fun with. These are all tools to do both. Just because people use the tool to 'win' without engaging with other people does not mean we should get rid of the tool. Otherwise we should probably get rid of all of these tools as they are all abused. Instead, be the example you want to see, try to RP with people who share your idea of a good collective experience, and encourage new players to head in that direction. And when you come across people who run the other end of the spectrum and they take your gold with no RP, realize it is a game and just move on to bigger and brighter things with people you enjoy the RP with.

[Duchess Says]

All told I think there is probably intent to at some point make it more than about pickpocketing since they changed it to Sleight of Hand. I'm still holding out for being able to slip something small like a note or key or ring or other small gift into someone's inventory. Or loosening their armor straps for a minor AC hit. Or tying shoelaces together for a movement speed hit or chance to trip.

[Skibbles]

Here is the thing .... and this will always be the thing whether we are talking about pickpocketing, quarterbreaking, disguises, slave/capture Rp, or the even latest and greatest PVP stomp build ..... when it comes to creating conflict between players there are those who are going to do it to 'win' and there are those who are going to do it to have a collective experience that everyone has fun with.

I agree in principle, but I have to disagree where it lies with PP and Quarterbreaking - because all the other things mentioned here have RP as an explicit requisite to engage in them (Rule 2).

PP, and Quarterbreaking too, are the only two mechanics that do not have a roleplay requirement. Quarterbreaking being easily preventable, and subsequently easily ignored, has a much larger theoretical impact than an actual one - barring new players that unfortunately aren't aware of quarter security mechanics wondering why their coal keeps going missing. QB is well hashed out with the usual vitriol in many other threads and I hope to avoid that quagmire here.

The following citation is from the wiki, and I'm bringing it up as proof that PP is fundamentally incomparable to normal conflict generating tools. Emphasis my own.

Attacking a thief caught in the act is OK. This does not break any of the Arelith rules. The act of stealing and successful detection of it is considered interactive roleplay before PvP battle in this case.

PP does not require RP.

If the PP is successful there is no need to interact, and if it is detected there is still no need to interact.

It subverts all expectations on Arelith which is probably why we're seeing screenshots of a dozen characters standing around wondering how to handle an obvious troll. It sidesteps interaction and avoids the 'Yes, and,' philosophy of roleplay. It is the only skill/ability in Arelith with a fully automated start-to-finish interaction through popups instead of player interaction. I can only imagine Scrying to be similar, but any followup to scrying - whether PvP or what-have-you, still requires interaction.

All else falls under the rules of engagement: http://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Rules#RULE_2 ... Engagement.

I believe this is why, by and large, we mostly see this skill used to by trolls and low-effort meme builds that exist, presumably, for the lulz. We do not see successful and legitimate pickpockets out there, because but by the virtue of their own success and careful use of the skill they are less visible and thus have minimal impact, if any, on meaningful interactive roleplay. I dub this the 'Most Pickpockets are not Trolls, but most Trolls are Pickpockets' clause.

Yes - people are going to try to win using the tools at hand, but every other tool at hand explicitly requires interaction, and every other tool at hand is more often used responsibly to generate interactive roleplay as a result.

Can PP claim the same? I think, by the definitions and requirements involved in the skill that I've outlined, on top of its concept being somewhat trite to begin with, it is fundamentally incapable of doing so.

Therefore, PP being sole exception to the rules, I don't think it can be accurately compared to anything else as a defense against its removal because there is nothing else like it. If the Team can consider disabling colors in character profiles due to lack of responsible use then I don't see why we can't also extend this same critical analysis to PP in polite debate.

Again I have not been personally grieved by pickpocketing in the new system, but I have noticed a lot of surrounding elements that raise questions to its contribution to the Arelith experience.

Sorry for the length.

[magistrasa]

I think I've only been PP like ten times in like seven years, with nothing particularly exceptional coming out of it, but it doesn't really bother me either.

This actually reminds me of a fun story that I never told you about, Skibbles, but it's relevant to my disappointments about pickpocketing.

When we were both playing baddies in the Underdark, my character heard that your character possessed an exceptionally rare and powerful magical trinket. Being a horrible person, my character did what any sensible Sharran would do in the situation: Hire miscreants to steal this item by whatever means possible. At least two of these miscreants were pickpockets, whom my character instructed to steal from yours at every possible opportunity until the item was acquired - and one day, as I was sitting around in the Hub, I had the distinct pleasure of witnessing one of those pickpocketers' attempts. You just so happened to be carrying a blade orb, and I remember your character just staring blankly at the paralyzed cutpurse before saying, "Wow, I've never seen one of those work before." I don't remember what happened after that, on account of the fact that I was laughing too hard to breathe. I think you turned the poor bastard to stone in the middle of the Hub. Sadly I was playing an alt, or else I would have been part of the scene.

The old mechanics for pickpocketing were by no means perfect. More often than not, pickpocketers would come away with either nothing to show for their efforts, or mithril dust the victim worked hard to find after a month of grinding. And the execution of the skill wasn't that much different from how it is now; functionally it's the same, only the reward has changed. But the old mechanics at least allowed for a chance to incorporate the skill in some attempt at storytelling.

There's an inherent absence of interactivity to the skill, and the unique narrative niche it might have filled before is gone. No one can hire pickpockets to steal silly little roleplay items from their political rivals anymore. The most interesting way to interact with pickpockets is gone. The only thing the skill is good for is gold. And I cannot overstate how utterly meaningless and unimportant the number in your bank account feels these days. In this post-skill-buff world, where appraise and leadership are more in abundance than ever before, no one needs any more ways to make gold.

It was never about the money. It's about sending a message.

[Skibbles]

You know it's super funny you tell that story because I actually originally typed out those exact details but decided to cut it out to save on word count! It sounds like you remember correctly, and it still the only time I've seen a blade orb trigger. I did end up using Flesh to Stone because I wasn't sure what else to really do, and then I think I had to cut out of there for a meeting right after.

I had no idea there was any backstory on that, which is awesome, and a curious point in favor of the old system! Though I do remember having a stack of 50-odd rubies stolen years prior, before the gembag. That was a doozy!

Thanks for sharing. Up until now I thought it was just a random encounter, but knowing there was an entire plot behind it is marvelous. Learning little things like that after so much time is very cool.