Pickpocket update

[preggy]

I feel the need to raise this particular point as a ..what? moment

If victim doesn't have enough coins, remaining gold will be reduced from victim's bank account.

Whats the thought process behind this one? It seems perfectly fair that someone should be able to protect themselves from theivery by..not having something on them to steal.

I'm not sure I like the idea of someone being able to pickpocket from me so hard to reaches through time and space into my bank account.

[Nitro]

This update really got me

[SkipiusEsq]

I agree with the OP. If someone kills me and has the time to rummage through every pocket, find secret compartments, and hold me upside down and shake my body, they get only the gold on me. If someone picks one pocket as slyly as possible, they can find the planar rift that goes directly from my pocket into the banker's vault.

However, if I'm at a store and am 10gp short, I can't dip into that same planar rift to get the gold from my bank account.

[Irongron]

"You have lost valuables equalling x gold in value."

This isn't actually gold being lost from the bank account, but a representation of having lost expensive scarves, lockets, etc, all those things you're character might be carrying that aren't actual valued, and often irreplaceable inventory items.

The update post should have been more clear on that point, I agree. (EDIT: I have updated the post to clarify this point)

Keep in mind this is an alternative to losing actual inventory items, often worth tens, or even hundreds of thousands. Previously losing actual inventory items to pickpockets was awful. Stacks of gems, ingots, custom weapons, and so on.

I understand how counter-intuative this is. If it helps, consider the gold lost from the bank account is the cost of replacing that gold chain, bracelet or necklace you've been wearing.

Players carry an absolute fortune in inventory items, after all.

[preggy]

Thats a fair explanation - and I appreciate that. All the info I needed, thanks.

[Nitro]

This feels like a really strange addition because we got a really cool overhaul to pickpocketing nonhostile NPC's that made the skill at least worthwhile but for some reason also included a considerably more toxic means to drain someone's bank account.

Severe problems with it:
#1 Bank draining doesn't make any sense.
EDIT:

This isn't actually gold being lost from the bank account, but a representation of having lost expensive scarves, lockets, etc, all those things you're character might be carrying that aren't actual valued, and often irreplaceable inventory items.

I'm not saying the previous iteration of Pickpocket was less toxic, I think it was one of the worst systems Arelith had. But this is a poor replacement. Banked gold is supposed to be safe, and even with previous pickpocket I could protect my most valuable items in settlement or quarter storage. Now I could walk naked with an empty inventory through Cordor and still be at the mercy of pickpockets.
#2 Individuals with poor intentions can do a quick PP ping to check someone's level by how much gold they get.
#3 3k doesn't sound like much to a level 30, until you get hit by 5 separate PP's in a day, several days a week and you're suddenly leaking more gold than a high-end quarter.
#4 No RP requirement and automated 24hr checking means that a character with a deep investment in pickpocketing has little reasons to not ping everyone they come across for some free cash injections if they don't care about tanking their reputation or have enough disguise for it to not matter.
#5 There's still no actual way to stop a pickpocket. Unless there was an undocumented change to how PP works then discovering a PP attempt will not prevent the gold from being stolen as long as the pickpocket can beat the DC30 check (20 if nonhostile).

It would make a lot more sense, and be a lot less toxic if the gold was simply restricted to gold actually present in your inventory instead of arbitrary representations of scrimscram that you supposedly are carrying around at all times. Let people who want to be risky with carrying around gold be the ones who stand to lose from being pickpocketed. Heck, increase the limit by a bunch as long as it doesn't take anything beyond GP present in the inventory. (or even better turn off player pickpocketing entirely)

[preggy]

I dont think it shows you the roll, and even on a D3000, it can still roll super low so this isnt really a strong indicator of level unless it rolls high but if this is a legitimate concern maybe just put a bit of non-level dependant variation into it.

Again, 3k is the absolute worst case scenario and by average it will be 1.5k for the first pick pocket.

Additionally Nitro, it should be said that there has been a bit of a shadow buff to carrying blade orbs here - and a BIG thank you for making them work and properly contribute while stacked.

The real question for me for a number of these changes is on the deminishing returns for repeat stuff against the same NPC/PC

Does this / should this apply depending on how many unique PC's are pickpocketing from that person.



I.E - Does a single PC gain the same amount of demishing returns for pickpocket attempts from them if done once each by 100 different people as if it was 1 person doing it 100 times.

And does this same thing apply to NPC Weariness as well? - If there is a sudden crimespree and a single NPC is stolen from a large number of times by a large number of PC's will this also increase their wearniness, or is only the PC's own actions which will effect weariness and subsequent DC's towards that player?

I think allowing number of attempts from all PC's to tie into the weariness factor (If not as impactful as that PC's own actions) which might make theft less predictable as far as how successful they're likely to be which may, or may not, be something we want to actually foster.

[Irongron]

This feels like a really strange addition because we got a really cool overhaul to pickpocketing nonhostile NPC's that made the skill at least worthwhile but for some reason also included a considerably more toxic means to drain someone's bank account.

Severe problems with it:
#1 Bank draining doesn't make any sense.
EDIT:

This isn't actually gold being lost from the bank account, but a representation of having lost expensive scarves, lockets, etc, all those things you're character might be carrying that aren't actual valued, and often irreplaceable inventory items.

I'm not saying the previous iteration of Pickpocket was less toxic, I think it was one of the worst systems Arelith had. But this is a poor replacement. Banked gold is supposed to be safe, and even with previous pickpocket I could protect my most valuable items in settlement or quarter storage. Now I could walk naked with an empty inventory through Cordor and still be at the mercy of pickpockets.
#2 Individuals with poor intentions can do a quick PP ping to check someone's level by how much gold they get.
#3 3k doesn't sound like much to a level 30, until you get hit by 5 separate PP's in a day, several days a week and you're suddenly leaking more gold than a high-end quarter.
#4 No RP requirement and automated 24hr checking means that a character with a deep investment in pickpocketing has little reasons to not ping everyone they come across for some free cash injections if they don't care about tanking their reputation or have enough disguise for it to not matter.
#5 There's still no actual way to stop a pickpocket. Unless there was an undocumented change to how PP works then discovering a PP attempt will not prevent the gold from being stolen as long as the pickpocket can beat the DC30 check (20 if nonhostile).

These are all good points, absolutely.

Blade Orbs will still work of course, and in regards to being targetted by different pickpockets during the same day - this has been taken care of, and the gold available is significantly reduced after each successful attempt.

I hope that player guards can deal with the actual fallout from doing this, a loss of reputation can, after all, lead to significant drawbacks due to exile, pariah etc. Beyond that some reputation with the NPCs might also be called for, so that after a certain point you're paying more for routine services than you're making in gold.

I believe the DC is made against the target's spot, but I would have to check on that.

[Irongron]

I dont think it shows you the roll, and even on a D3000, it can still roll super low so this isnt really a strong indicator of level unless it rolls high but if this is a legitimate concern maybe just put a bit of non-level dependant variation into it.

Again, 3k is the absolute worst case scenario and by average it will be 1.5k for the first pick pocket.

The real question for me for a number of these changes is on the deminishing returns for repeat stuff against the same NPC/PC

Does this / should this apply depending on how many unique PC's are pickpocketing from that person.

I.E - Does a single PC gain the same amount of demishing returns for pickpocket attempts from them if done once each by 100 different people as if it was 1 person doing it 100 times.

And does this same thing apply to NPC Weariness as well? - If there is a sudden crimespree and a single NPC is stolen from a large number of times by a large number of PC's will this also increase their wearniness, or is only the PC's own actions which will effect weariness and subsequent DC's towards that player?

I think allowing number of attempts from all PC's to tie into the weariness factor (If not as impactful as that PC's own actions) which might make theft less predictable as far as how successful they're likely to be which may, or may not, be something we want to actually foster.

Wariness on NPCS rises for everyone trying to steal from them.

If a thief pickpockets another character, any other thief then trying to pickpocket that same PC will get less, and so on, after they are successful, until they gain virtually nothing at all. This is all calculated over 24 hours. Thus, thieves are in direct competition with each other, and it is not in a guilds interest to have mass lawlessness. (Theft would offer virtually no reward for the risk)

[preggy]

That puts my main concerns aside then.

As someone who has had very, very expensive stuff stolen from them before, I can accept this as a reasonable substitute, especially when the response on my Original character, Dredi, was just to have 2 whole inventory pages dedicated to blade orbs.

Only other question is: Will the pickpocket check all stacks of blade orbs to calculate chances of proccing? I seem to now have 3 types of blade orbs, old spider models, new but not stacking and new but stacking.

I imagine I got one or two while the system was still transitioning or something..

Just want to make sure I dont have to throw anything away, even if it would be nice to ensure they all stacked properly.

[Nitro]

I believe the DC is made against the target's spot, but I would have to check on that.

I certainly hope so, that would go a long way towards changing it from being able to do literally anything to stop from being pickpocketed as it is with the vanilla mechanics.

[Irongron]

I believe the DC is made against the target's spot, but I would have to check on that.

I certainly hope so, that would go a long way towards changing it from being able to do literally anything to stop from being pickpocketed as it is with the vanilla mechanics.

As do I (But I really do need to check on this, if not there might be a reason why not), which is party why I added this:

* New command -observe added. It allows you to observe a character. While observing a character, you get +20 to your spot check for detecting your observation target's pickpocket attempt. Only one character can be observed at any time. Entering this command will put you into targeting mode. Then you just need to select the target you want to observe.

This way you really need to be careful not to be suspicous, pick your target carefully, use a crowded room, be the person they wouldn't suspect, and then move on. Being a brazen thief would soon ensure everyone watches you like a hawk, and theft becomes near impossible to achieve. Again, this calls for Theives' Guilds that operate intelligently, and don't bleed their settlement dry.

[Irongron]

That puts my main concerns aside then.

As someone who has had very, very expensive stuff stolen from them before, I can accept this as a reasonable substitute, especially when the response on my Original character, Dredi, was just to have 2 whole inventory pages dedicated to blade orbs.

Only other question is: Will the pickpocket check all stacks of blade orbs to calculate chances of proccing? I seem to now have 3 types of blade orbs, old spider models, new but not stacking and new but stacking.

I imagine I got one or two while the system was still transitioning or something..

Just want to make sure I dont have to throw anything away, even if it would be nice to ensure they all stacked properly.

It should no longer make a difference if they are stacked or unstacked.

[Mattamue]

This is a bazillion times better than what it was. Looking forward to seeing it in action and seeing if guilds actually pop up.

[Nitro]

It'd be nice to know how the new system works in a bit more detail. In Vanilla you'd always steal an item if you had at least 30 points in pp, whether you were spotted or not, hence my apprehension. How does it work now, can you still be spotted and steal an item? Does being spotted raise the DC to steal an item? Make it impossible to steal an item?

[Irongron]

It'd be nice to know how the new system works in a bit more detail. In Vanilla you'd always steal an item if you had at least 30 points in pp, whether you were spotted or not. How does it work now, can you still be spotted and steal an item? Does being spotted raise the DC to steal an item? Make it impossible to steal an item?

I can't answer this unfortunately! I'll look into it tomorrow. I didn't actually specify the above should be changed, but I agree that if you are spotted (by the target) attempting to pickpocket you should not succeeed in doing so, that just seems logical.

[SkipiusEsq]

"You have lost valuables equalling x gold in value."

This isn't actually gold being lost from the bank account, but a representation of having lost expensive scarves, lockets, etc, all those things you're character might be carrying that aren't actual valued, and often irreplaceable inventory items.

The update post should have been more clear on that point, I agree. (EDIT: I have updated the post to clarify this point)

Keep in mind this is an alternative to losing actual inventory items, often worth tens, or even hundreds of thousands. Previously losing actual inventory items to pickpockets was awful. Stacks of gems, ingots, custom weapons, and so on.

I understand how counter-intuative this is. If it helps, consider the gold lost from the bank account is the cost of replacing that gold chain, bracelet or necklace you've been wearing.

Players carry an absolute fortune in inventory items, after all.

Just so I'm certain, it removes from your personal bank account and not a faction bank account to which you have access to that bank, correct?

[Irongron]

"You have lost valuables equalling x gold in value."

This isn't actually gold being lost from the bank account, but a representation of having lost expensive scarves, lockets, etc, all those things you're character might be carrying that aren't actual valued, and often irreplaceable inventory items.

The update post should have been more clear on that point, I agree. (EDIT: I have updated the post to clarify this point)

Keep in mind this is an alternative to losing actual inventory items, often worth tens, or even hundreds of thousands. Previously losing actual inventory items to pickpockets was awful. Stacks of gems, ingots, custom weapons, and so on.

I understand how counter-intuative this is. If it helps, consider the gold lost from the bank account is the cost of replacing that gold chain, bracelet or necklace you've been wearing.

Players carry an absolute fortune in inventory items, after all.

Just so I'm certain, it removes from your personal bank account and not a faction bank account to which you have access to that bank, correct?

Its another good question, but honestly? If the answer is yes then I suspect players would attempt to game the system by creating a faction account for their character and leaving their personal one empty.

[Irongron]

It'd be nice to know how the new system works in a bit more detail. In Vanilla you'd always steal an item if you had at least 30 points in pp, whether you were spotted or not, hence my apprehension. How does it work now, can you still be spotted and steal an item? Does being spotted raise the DC to steal an item? Make it impossible to steal an item?

I have confirmed with Zaphiel, Yes, if a thief gets spotted making an attempt by the victim he CANNOT steal.

[Nitro]

I have confirmed with Zaphiel, Yes, if a thief gets spotted making an attempt by the victim he CANNOT steal.

Great! That's one big fear resolved.

Just so I'm certain, it removes from your personal bank account and not a faction bank account to which you have access to that bank, correct?

Its another good question, but honestly? If the answer is yes then I suspect players would attempt to game the system by creating a faction account for their character and leaving their personal one empty.

This does sort of highlight how silly the bank stuff is. Because it would be unreasonable for it to actually take from faction accounts because then the Pickpocket is not only stealing from an individual but an entire faction.

[mjones3]

I feel a strong need to remind everyone concerned about folks just transferring coins to a faction bank account.

Quarters are tied to taking tax money straight from a non-faction bank.

[cantalyssa]

extra skillpoints for spot when?

[CorsicanDoge]

I kind of regret investing in listen now. It seems like I'll just be the quarter to be broken into and they don't even need to gimp their build for it. That said someone pickpocketing me will probably look sketchy if I hear them and I guess that's enough reason to confront them?

I don't think it'll be the end of the world. Sure, we'll see some more pickpockets especially since Invisible Blade seems to rely on it but the moment one particular thief gets caught then that's kind of it for them. The social ramifications of being a thief is far-reaching and word would get around, eventually, even some people are hurt along the way.

Some people would prefer to die than have their things stolen from them and that's not Arelith-specific.

[the grim yeeter]

Overall, I guess, in some aspects, this new system is a slight improvement compared to the previous. But then again, the previous pickpocketing system was really bad. I am still very strongly of opinion that PvP pickpocketing should simply not be a thing at all. Like Nitro said, the current system probably enables more toxicity than the previous.

This isn't actually gold being lost from the bank account, but a representation of having lost expensive scarves, lockets, etc, all those things you're character might be carrying that aren't actual valued, and often irreplaceable inventory items.

Isn't this mechanic completely perpendicular to the WYSIWYG principle? If a lvl 10 character doesn't have 1000 gold in their inventory, then they simply don't have 1000 gold in their inventory. And you can't just make gold disappear from a player's bank account to reflect the loss of expensive trinkets that aren't actually there. Like Nitro said, banked gold is supposed to be safe. Let people who take the risk of carrying around gold be the ones who are more susceptible to the danger of losing their gold, just like the people who are careful enough not to take (much) gold with them should be rewarded for being cautious. The way this system works now, characters without Spot are practically helpless and will simply have no chance of avoiding gold disappearing from their bank account everytime a thief decides to steal from them. That's not good.

I think it has had to be said a little too often now already, but I'll just say it again: being pickpocketed is not fun. I've never seen a player say they enjoyed what came of being pickpocketed. It, as far as I can recall, always came down to the victim killing the thief if they detected them, or the victim's player being bummed out once they found out they no longer have the item that they thought they had in their inventory, especially because no RP was gained from it. Surely, the latter will also apply to finding out you've suddenly, magically, lost gold from your bank account. Never have I once seen a player say: "haha, great, i've been pickpocketed. man, great RP opportunities came from this! love it!"

Why do we want to have a PvP pickpocketing system so badly? What are the pros to this? What does the server gain from it? I would genuinely love to hear it from people who are in favour of such a system. Maybe I am overlooking something.

That said, if we do decide on keeping the system as is, I suggest making Listen just as useful for detecting pickpockets as Spot currently is.

[Irongron]

Isn't this mechanic completely perpendicular to the WYSIWYG principle? If a lvl 10 character doesn't have 1000 gold in their inventory, then they simply don't have 1000 gold in their inventory. And you can't just make gold disappear from a player's bank account to reflect the loss of expensive trinkets that aren't actually there.

Character models, their descriptions, their clothes, often have items that aren't in the inventory. Routinely character emote taking out a box of cigars, a flask, a quill, and so on. The truth is that almost every character have inventories worth hundreds of thousands, if not millions of gold. The current pickpocket system is intended to represented a fractional loss of that total.

That being said I do see that suspending disbelief is required and that this isn't ideal, but it is far, far preferable. I don't want to reward characters for not carrying gold, as the implication is that items are being stolen. I would, however, be open to saying that if gold is not present, then characters default to lose actual inventory items as previously. I do not, however, think that will be at all popular.

The new system heavily favours the victim, where the previous one did not. Pickpocket entirely fails if one is spotted, and with a coded 24 rule in place, diminishing returns, and what really is an extremely marginal loss of gold, I do not think this will cause a crippling crime wave (I may stand corrected in a few weeks).

As for what player to player pickpocket offers? I can only speak from the perspective of a player there, and not a dev. Criminality roleplay I find really enjoyable in this setting, and I firmly believe there should be a way to do so without it causing obvious grief to the victim. I want to see it enabled, and not shut down.