Earthkin Defender Changes Thread!

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Electro Kiwi
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Earthkin Defender Changes Thread!

Post by Electro Kiwi » Wed Nov 04, 2020 5:16 pm

I am super excited for the EKD changes. Here are some things I've noticed on the PGCC:

• Aegis and Debilitating Strike have no sounds or effects. They are used like a spell being cast and then the effect is created. It would be nice to see some sounds/effects/prompts for the abilities.

• Defensive Stance has no prompt when activated. Instead of using chat text, a prompt in the logs would be great.

• Currently, it seems like the only feat I was able to select as a Dwarven Defender was Debilitating Strike, up to Greater Debilitating Strike. The others like - Mounting Resilience, Magebane, Deterrence - were never an option while leveling up, despite filling the prerequisites.

I am so looking forward to these changes, and I want to be able to test them in the PGCC! I will post some more bugs if/when I find them.

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Re: Earthkin Defender Changes Thread!

Post by Svrtr » Wed Nov 04, 2020 5:31 pm

Agreed.

Though, on the bite back, with the biteback damage and the loss of DR, but more importantly the futility of DR in the face of crits, could a consideration be given to a way to get, not crit immunity, but perhaps DI when you do get crit if such is possible, perhaps when the biteback skill is up? Such as gaining 20% + DD levels in DI that applies only to crits? Given the limited nature of NWN's coding, not sure if that specifically is possible, but if it is I think it would help make it more easily justifiable.

On another note, could consideration be given to passive regeneration and to have the regeneration feats removed? Such as 1 regeneration/4 DD levels. In part to help encourage the other feats being taken over the regeneration, and because it may fit.

Anyways, love where this looks to be going and can't wait to see more.

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Re: Earthkin Defender Changes Thread!

Post by lordadam12 » Wed Nov 04, 2020 5:44 pm

Much like Kiwi, I could only select a Aegis/Debil. on pgcc. No Prompt entering stance etc.

I am not sure if it was intentional, but the every 4 levels of epic Defender would net you a General Epic Feat, it seems that is no long the case, making the class have a loss of 2 feats ( Tech 1 as you gain Armor skin for free) for a lot of the heavy defender builds.

Heavy DD builds also have seen a net loss of 1 DR at the 18 lvl mark. While not a big deal, it seems a rework shouldn't make something weaker, even if its such an almost irrelevant amount.

Having played a few in the past and currently playing a DD the only complaint i ever had with the class was the lack of feats in epics vs a fighter. Gaining Armor skin is a nice step in that direction, but not with the loss of the epic general feats, unless this was an oversight.

-Will continue to test as more come online.
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Re: Earthkin Defender Changes Thread!

Post by Diegovog » Wed Nov 04, 2020 6:12 pm

Biteback was not a fun mechanic back then and I don't think it's a good idea having an AoE biteback.

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Re: Earthkin Defender Changes Thread!

Post by Xerah » Wed Nov 04, 2020 6:18 pm

Bite back is quite low because of this (5d4 likely at most), it's on a cooldown, and biteback spells already exist.
I am not sure if it was intentional, but the every 4 levels of epic Defender would net you a General Epic Feat, it seems that is no long the case, making the class have a loss of 2 feats ( Tech 1 as you gain Armor skin for free) for a lot of the heavy defender builds.
You do pick up 2-3 extra epic feats that relate to EKD abilities, that's the tradeoff.
While not a big deal, it seems a rework shouldn't make something weaker, even if its such an almost irrelevant amount.
This is a false way to look at things. You can't look at 1 thing and say it's weaker; this is a package deal.
On another note, could consideration be given to passive regeneration and to have the regeneration feats removed? Such as 1 regeneration/4 DD levels. In part to help encourage the other feats being taken over the regeneration, and because it may fit.
I considered those regen feats pretty worthless. Okay for PVE, but useless for PVP. It would need to be a lot better/do something else, for me to consider taking 3 feats for it.
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Re: Earthkin Defender Changes Thread!

Post by Nitro » Wed Nov 04, 2020 6:38 pm

Biteback spells are dispellable however. This is a source of party-wide undispellable non-elemental biteback.

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Re: Earthkin Defender Changes Thread!

Post by Xerah » Wed Nov 04, 2020 6:42 pm

It wasn't stated initially, but it lasts for 18 seconds.
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Re: Earthkin Defender Changes Thread!

Post by a shrouded figure » Wed Nov 04, 2020 7:26 pm

Was there an announcement on this and I missed it? lol

**found it on discord.

I’ll say interesting for the time being. Not at all what I was hoping for- but we’ll see.

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Re: Earthkin Defender Changes Thread!

Post by redhawx » Wed Nov 04, 2020 7:52 pm

The Class is already quite feat starved if you want to make anything out of the Damage-reduction path. So to remove two Epic-general feats is not good. The DR scaling also mean the heavy-investers in the class loose out one dmg-reduction. Now you have to invest the full twenty-levels to gain what you had at level 18 before.

I think it would be wise to add another general epic feat so that you do not get a net-loose of general epic feats in this class. Barbarian and other classes that recieved overhauls did not get their new powers at the "cost" of their old general feats.
We should also remember that due to being a prestige class it is harder to make "dips" such as into rogue to recieve UMD and Thumble with this class. If you want to max out your DR you have to do so at the expense of loosing out AB pree epic since you can only take 10 levels of the class on pree epic.

A possible fix to this can be to change some of the keystone things of the class to level 16 instead of level 18 and 20. Something to consider. In the past, 18 levels was the highest you ever needed for maxed Dr and now it is 20. Twenty leave no room for taking thumble or other things at epic level. Not at all.

Mainwhile many other classes has gained in this aspect that is the very core of the class (Ability to soak up damage). Barbarians make staggering tanks in this aspect. As fighters might do if the ability to reach 20 % dmg immunity through fighter-only feats is implemented. That will stack with half-orc/orog/ogre racials and armor for ability to reach up to 35% dmg immunity and 9 DR. Feels like a too step away from the main theme of the class. Perhaps some of those class specific feats should boost up DR or DMG immunity for yourself too?

Another possible fix is to make it so that level 20 actually give something - really good. Similar to how 20 levels of CoT give you that last sweet AB and Divine Dmg.

I suggest, that instead of gaining 2 DR on reaching Epic Dwarven Defender you should gain 3 DR.
This mean you retain the old DR that you recieved as a defender at level 18. While it still let those of lower investment, have a more balanced scaling that let you enjoy DR throughout leveling up and not just in the very end.

You could argue you only loose one feat as you gain armor-skin. Though this do lower the ability to customize your build as it shoe-horn you into armor skin when you in the past instead had two feats to choose between what you wanted.

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Re: Earthkin Defender Changes Thread!

Post by mjones3 » Wed Nov 04, 2020 8:29 pm

I'm not sure if this is possible but It would be awesome to have debilitating strike auto apply with AoO. EDK is like a mobile lethal wall, this would make it harder to just run past them/circles around them while they are slowed down in defensive stance.

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Re: Earthkin Defender Changes Thread!

Post by Scylon » Wed Nov 04, 2020 10:05 pm

The new abilities seem a nice addition to the class, however as a whole it feels like it has actually moved away a bit from being the "defense" class. Some of these abilities should just be free I think.
Last edited by Scylon on Wed Nov 04, 2020 10:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Earthkin Defender Changes Thread!

Post by Curve » Wed Nov 04, 2020 10:28 pm

Is there a way to see these potential changes without discord? The last thing I need in my life is another thing to check.

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Re: Earthkin Defender Changes Thread!

Post by lordadam12 » Wed Nov 04, 2020 10:44 pm

Curve wrote:
Wed Nov 04, 2020 10:28 pm
Is there a way to see these potential changes without discord? The last thing I need in my life is another thing to check.
Will PM you them
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Re: Earthkin Defender Changes Thread!

Post by Quidix » Wed Nov 04, 2020 10:49 pm

Will they still get Defensive Awareness I & II? (not listed under the new class feat list)

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Re: Earthkin Defender Changes Thread!

Post by lordadam12 » Wed Nov 04, 2020 10:52 pm

Yes, I transferred my current Dwd and rebuilt it, It still received Defensive Awareness 1/2 etc., So i would say that is intended until otherwise noted.
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Re: Earthkin Defender Changes Thread!

Post by a shrouded figure » Wed Nov 04, 2020 11:13 pm

Losing those two would be a complete step backwards so that is good.

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Re: Earthkin Defender Changes Thread!

Post by Gouge Away » Thu Nov 05, 2020 12:19 am

Don't know why it's not on the forum, I assume it's an oversight or someone was too busy, but for the sake of anyone who doesn't Discord:
Earthkin Defender update on PGCC only:

Class progression changed to the following:
1: Defensive Stance, Dodge, Class Feat
2: Earthkin Resilience
4: Class Feat
7: Class Feat
9: Evasion
10: Class Feat
11: Epic Earthkin Defender
13: Epic Class Feat
15: Armor Skin
16: Epic Class Feat
19: Epic Class Feat

The standard DR scaling has been removed. Earthkin Resilience grants 1 DR per 2 levels instead.

Defensive Stance: It has been changed to +1 AB, +2 dodge AC, +2 uni saves, and temporary health equal to double the character's earthkin defender levels. In addition the movement speed penalty is substantially less than it was before. (will have ~12 second cooldown)

Epic Earthkin Defender: The feat grants an additional +2 DR and further reduces the movement speed penalty of Defensive Stance.

Class feats can only be spent on a special pool of Earthkin Defender feats. The majority of these feats have three tiers to them, the THIRD tier will always cost an epic feat. In addition there are a few epic feats independent of the tiered options. Bonuses will be displayed in the format of 1/2/3 in regards to what the benefit is depending on the tier.

Class feats:
Iron Stance: Prerequisite: Constitution 15. The benefits of Defensive Stance are replaced with +2 AB, +4 dodge AC, +4 uni saves, and temporary health equal to quadruple the Earthkin Defender's class level. Defensive Stance's speed is decreased by this feat.

Safeguard: Prerequisite: Constitution 15. All other allies (not the Earthkin Defender) are granted 10/15/20 physical damage immunity and 0/16/26 SR for 24 seconds. This ability has a 2 minute cooldown.

Debilitating Strike: Prerequisite: Strength 15. Make a melee touch attack at -12/-8/-4 AB against a target. On a successful hit the target's movement speed is decreased by 25% for 3 rounds. At the third tier the target will make a fortitude saving throw (with spellcraft) vs. a DC equal to half of the Earthkin Defender's levels + strength modifier + 20. On a failed save the target is affected by the Slow spell instead for 3 rounds.

Banner: Prerequisite: Charisma 13. Deploy a stationary fragile banner that will stand for 60 seconds. Allies within its radius receive +1/+2/+3 AB, +1/+2/+3 Uni, +10/+16/+26 SR, +1/+2/+3 to all skills, +1/+2/+3 damage, and +10%/+20%/+40% movement speed.

Mounting Resistance: Prerequisite: Constitution 15. The Earthkin Defender receives +3/+6/+9 regeneration while in Defensive Stance.


Epic Feats:

Magebane: Prerequisite: Constitution 15. The Earthkin Defender passively gains SR equal to 12 + their Earthkin Defender level.

Aegis: Prerequisite: Constitution 15. The Earthkin Defender and their allies gain temporary health equal to sextuple the Earthkin Defender’s total class level.

Deterrence: Prerequisite: Constitution 15. All other allies near the Earthkin Defender receive biteback damage. The damage is calculated by a number of d3 dice equal to the Earthkin Defender’s base constitution modifier. Lasts for 18 seconds.


Developer Commentary:

While Earthkin Defender has always been effective it has often not been a particularly exciting class. It’s slow and dated, often feeling outclassed by other options. The aim of this update is to provide more build choices and more combat options for the Earthkin Defender while making them more engaging to play.

This is still a work in progress and will spend some time on the PGCC for testing. Feedback on the forums is welcome. Numbers and balancing are not final.

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Re: Earthkin Defender Changes Thread!

Post by Mattamue » Thu Nov 05, 2020 2:21 am

In addition to Gouge's note, there's a draft of the changes here: http://wiki.nwnarelith.com/User:Mattamue and I added a note, per Xerah, that armor is required.

I feel there is an opportunity to open up the bonus feats to non-class feats in epics. Rangers, for example, make a choice between favored enemies and Bane, EWF, or Epic Prowess on their epic bonus feats. Adding EWF, Prowess, and EDR to the epic bonus feats list would give more choice for ED builds.

Note that it's possible to take an "epic" feat like Aegis or Debilitating Strike III on ED level 10 when the character is level 21.

Who is the audience for this post?


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Re: Earthkin Defender Changes Thread!

Post by TimeAdept » Thu Nov 05, 2020 2:46 am

DwD epic feats turning into class feats is an issue for the class, since 3 of its feats want to be holed up into EDR. On top of needing armor skin, epic prowess, and epic weapon focus, this means 6 epic feats. that's 21/24/27/30 plus two, which is 13 and 16. That means a basic dwarven defender can't even pick up any of their epic class features if they want to do something as simple as be a bread and butter EDR tank with absolutely no flair whatsoever. Even with the class getting Armor Skin for free, at 15, you're still short 1 feat of the 6 required to be an extremely basic functional epic melee character who chooses to take EDR 3. (Barbs have this same issue esp w/ epic rage feats + EDR but i digress.)

The trend of killing [bonus] epic feat progression on classes and tying them to the revamps that started with hexblade (hex's epic feats all go to hex/curse and no actual bonus epic feats unlike say rogue, CoT, Ranger, casters, etc) should be closely examined, because killing epic feat progression extremely restricts what can be done with classes. I won't go into Hexblade here, I'll instead focus on DwD. Instead, view what it done with things like Ranger, where at 25 and 30 you still receive your bonus favored enemy feats, on top of your normal 23/26/29.

My suggestion is to move the DwD normal class epic feats to 14 and 18, and then make the Class Feature feats at 13, 16, 19 -these three feats can only be class related, whereas 14 and 18 are general bonus feat list levels. This enables 18 DwD to have the 6 feats needed to pick up EDR 3 and the basic bread and butter melee epic feats, while keeping the same progression of Class Feature bonus feats, a la pre epic rogue bonus feat progression, or ranger favored enemies. You could even allow, a la ranger, the DwD to transition these into general bonus epic feats as well.

Iron Stance feels like either really good or not useful, depending how fast you can move. Safeguard seems really good, as does taking the 9 regen. Banner needing 13 cha kills it, unfortunately. 11 could be workable. Safeguard is a gimme. If I made an 18 dwd I would do Safeguard 3 Mounting Resistance 3 and call it a day. If Iron Stance was good I'd do Safeguard 2 Ironstance Mounting Resistance 3. There's room for some funkiness here, I could see a gold Dwarf Rogue 6 PDK Valiant 10 DwD 14 that uses its 13 class feat on Banner 3 and Safeguard 1, or the opposite.

The feat beef is my big one here.

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Re: Earthkin Defender Changes Thread!

Post by Xerah » Thu Nov 05, 2020 3:11 am

I don't know why epic prowess is a requirement. And if you're stating it is, then you're getting free +1 AB from defensive stance that you never had before (or +2 with iron stance). So I'd consider that a wash.

I don't see the CHA requirement killing it; it is just for another style of defender.
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Re: Earthkin Defender Changes Thread!

Post by Gouge Away » Thu Nov 05, 2020 3:24 am

Just for the sake of discussion: as this has been opened to all earthkin I'm curious about whether this class would have any appeal for
hin and gnomes. Are those races being considered, or should they?

I can see gnomes making great use of the constitution-based abilities (though I wonder how thematic this class really is for the race). You probably could make an adequate high con, high strength hin (likely strongheart) but it seems like you'd be way outclassed by a dwarf. Though I haven't really put this to the test on the PGCC so maybe I'm wrong.

If it really is supposed to be for all earthkin what if a couple of token gnome and hin flavored options were added? Banner seems like the only one that favors them over shield dwarves with the 13 charisma requirement.

(edit) and, is this open to Duergar? Not really being earthkin, but they were of course able to be dwarven defenders. Kind of curious about derro actually.

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Re: Earthkin Defender Changes Thread!

Post by TimeAdept » Thu Nov 05, 2020 4:40 am

Xerah wrote:
Thu Nov 05, 2020 3:11 am
I don't know why epic prowess is a requirement. And if you're stating it is, then you're getting free +1 AB from defensive stance that you never had before (or +2 with iron stance). So I'd consider that a wash.

I don't see the CHA requirement killing it; it is just for another style of defender.
Epic Weapon Focus, Epic Prowess, and Armor Skin (MAYBE not if 2handing) are basic required feats to be an effective melee character in epic. Barbarians don't not take EWF and prowess because rage gives AB. Spellswords don't not take prowess/focus because EMA gives AB. Monks don't not take EWF/prowess even though high moink gives AB. Rangers don't not take EWF even though Bane of Enemies gives +2 AB. Rogues don't not take EWF/prowess even though 19 and 24 rogue gives AB. Hexblades don't not take prowess/EWF even though Curse gives more scaling AB. Cavaliers don't not take EWF/Prowess even though Charge gives AB.

To put it another way, classes don't not take Armor Skin even though epic class bonuses may give AC.

To put it yet another way, Shadow Mages still take ESF illusion/enchant/necro even though Shadowmage gives +2 DC.

It's not "a wash", these are basic feats for basic functionality for a character, and any and every build is made with the assumption that you take them, and need to take them, to be effective. Therefore, ever class and balancing decision should be made with these extremely basic considerations taken into mind. It's not "a wash" for DwD to not take prowess any more than it is for any of the other classes I mentioned - it is straight up a loss of 1 AB, a hard AB that does not count towards your +20 cap like Defensive Stance does.

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Re: Earthkin Defender Changes Thread!

Post by redhawx » Thu Nov 05, 2020 4:56 am

TimeAdept wrote:
Thu Nov 05, 2020 4:40 am
Xerah wrote:
Thu Nov 05, 2020 3:11 am
I don't know why epic prowess is a requirement. And if you're stating it is, then you're getting free +1 AB from defensive stance that you never had before (or +2 with iron stance). So I'd consider that a wash.

I don't see the CHA requirement killing it; it is just for another style of defender.
Epic Weapon Focus, Epic Prowess, and Armor Skin (MAYBE not if 2handing) are basic required feats to be an effective melee character in epic. Barbarians don't not take EWF and prowess because rage gives AB. Spellswords don't not take prowess/focus because EMA gives AB. Monks don't not take EWF/prowess even though high moink gives AB. Rangers don't not take EWF even though Bane of Enemies gives +2 AB. Rogues don't not take EWF/prowess even though 19 and 24 rogue gives AB. Hexblades don't not take prowess/EWF even though Curse gives more scaling AB. Cavaliers don't not take EWF/Prowess even though Charge gives AB.

To put it another way, classes don't not take Armor Skin even though epic class bonuses may give AC.

To put it yet another way, Shadow Mages still take ESF illusion/enchant/necro even though Shadowmage gives +2 DC.

It's not "a wash", these are basic feats for basic functionality for a character, and any and every build is made with the assumption that you take them, and need to take them, to be effective. Therefore, ever class and balancing decision should be made with these extremely basic considerations taken into mind. It's not "a wash" for DwD to not take prowess any more than it is for any of the other classes I mentioned - it is straight up a loss of 1 AB, a hard AB that does not count towards your +20 cap like Defensive Stance does.
I think those are good points.

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Re: Earthkin Defender Changes Thread!

Post by Xerah » Thu Nov 05, 2020 5:20 am

Epic Weapon Focus, Epic Prowess, and Armor Skin (MAYBE not if 2handing) are basic required feats to be an effective melee character in epic. Barbarians don't not take EWF and prowess because rage gives AB. Spellswords don't not take prowess/focus because EMA gives AB. Monks don't not take EWF/prowess even though high moink gives AB. Rangers don't not take EWF even though Bane of Enemies gives +2 AB. Rogues don't not take EWF/prowess even though 19 and 24 rogue gives AB. Hexblades don't not take prowess/EWF even though Curse gives more scaling AB. Cavaliers don't not take EWF/Prowess even though Charge gives AB.

To put it another way, classes don't not take Armor Skin even though epic class bonuses may give AC.

To put it yet another way, Shadow Mages still take ESF illusion/enchant/necro even though Shadowmage gives +2 DC.

It's not "a wash", these are basic feats for basic functionality for a character, and any and every build is made with the assumption that you take them, and need to take them, to be effective. Therefore, ever class and balancing decision should be made with these extremely basic considerations taken into mind. It's not "a wash" for DwD to not take prowess any more than it is for any of the other classes I mentioned - it is straight up a loss of 1 AB, a hard AB that does not count towards your +20 cap like Defensive Stance does.
Those are not really great points at all. Some builds don't take armour skin because they feel like they have high AC. A lot of builds don't fit in prowess. Shadow Mages take the ESF because you get more than just bonuses to DC.

If you can fit, great, otherwise, that's what fighter levels are for if you really need it (3 fighter levels in epic gets you EWS and EP). But it is in no way is it required; you're at least where you were before. +1AB is not basic functionality.
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Re: Earthkin Defender Changes Thread!

Post by TimeAdept » Thu Nov 05, 2020 5:31 am

I respectfully disagree with your assertations. No melee build is dropping prowess before anything else, because you do 0 damage if you don't hit. No melee build that isn;t completely disregarding AC doesn't take armor skin, because there is no such thing as "good enough AC" until you his numbers that you can't typically hit without taking Armor Skin to begin with - and the other builds that aren't taking it are doing so because they just don't care about AC - see 2 hand terror/thunder barbs.

3 fighter, btw, does not get you epic spec. It will get you EWF and prowess, but no build is dipping 3 fighter on those grounds alone - they're going 4, and very oftne they're doing it pre epic for the attacks. If they're doing it post epic, then it's likely they're doing so at the expense of CL or other effects, like paladin, ranger, bard, or barbarian. All of these builds are not adding fighter to *take* prowess or EWF, they're adding fighter so they can shuffle the other feats they want to the non fighter levels, and are using fighter to pick up EWf and prowess. They would still have taken prowess and EWF, because it is mandatory to do so on a melee character. They would simply have forgone the other fun feats or class abilities, like a second rage, +5 blade thirst or bless weapon, or whatever it is non divine battle bards take on their fighter levels (it's like saves or ESFs or some junk idk).

Please name and describe the "lot of" melee builds that satisfactorily perform that do not take epic prowess and/or EWF. Because there are "a lot of" them, it should be easy to do so. I won't press the Armor Skin point even though I disagree, simply because of the Core Three Epic Melee Feat Taxes, it's ironically the most disposable to the largest cross section, despite AC being more important. Perhaps *because* AC is more important, it becomes even harder to not take E prowess, because.... circling back to my first line... you do 0 damage if you don't hit.

+1 to hit on a melee class is thedefinition of basic functionality.

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