Earthkin Defender Changes Thread!

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Baron Saturday
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Re: Earthkin Defender Changes Thread!

Post by Baron Saturday » Thu Nov 05, 2020 5:58 am

A few builds from the wiki that skip Epic Prowess:
Rogue 24/Fighter 6
Rogue 19/Fighter 8/Monk 3
Fighter 10/Rogue 13/WM 7
Bard 17/PDK 10/Paladin 3
Monk 20/Rogue 10
Paladin 27/Rogue 3
Paladin 23/Fighter 4/Rogue 3
SS 21/Fighter 6/Monk 3
Bard 25/Fighter 5
I could continue, as I checked less than half the build list, but I think that's enough. As far as epic feats go, Epic Prowess is generally very low priority. It's nice to have, sure, if you can fit it in, but there's plenty of things that provide better value, and plenty of builds that make do without it.
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Re: Earthkin Defender Changes Thread!

Post by redhawx » Thu Nov 05, 2020 6:42 am

It would hurt any of those builds to loose one of its epic feats.

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Re: Earthkin Defender Changes Thread!

Post by TimeAdept » Thu Nov 05, 2020 6:52 am

rogue 24/6: goes 18 dex and great dex. a common variant uses 17 dex 13 str and takes prowess. here, great dex is effectively prowess, because it is the same result plus an ac due to the decision to go an even stat. this is essentially the only situation where the decision is made, because you're making the conscious decision to begin with a stat that will require a great stat to even off. this is a good mention, because i didn't consider this at the time, so thank you for the build mention. there is, in very specific instances, times where you will use a great stat to replace what would have been epic prowess, however, the net result is the same, you're using the feat to get +1 hard AB - basic functionality. While it is separate, i feel it proves my point.

rogue fighter monk: see above, even stat + great dex. still a good callout, thank you.

13/10/7: drop ESF: disc, take prowess. a call i'd make every time in the post loremageddon world, but im comfortable in my gearing and play. i would also make serious consideration to dropping EWS for prowess. i value +1 AB that much, especially on a rogue and a WM that craves the best utilization of long crit possible. yes, it's +12 damage, i totally get it, but you want to crit as often as possible, and your sneak dice ar egoing to help buoy your damage up.

pard 10/pdk/pally: this build takes lingering song and curse song in epics. it is a sub 20 bard build with sub 500 HP. you should be dropping lingering song for epic prowess, and just dealing with the fact that you hate your life at your windup. 5 rounds doesn't really fix this. i do not like this build at all, i think it would perform awfully, but i will answer it. you should not play this I M H O.

monk/rogue: drop ESF disc for prowess as above. you're a monk with epic dodge, and we're post loremageddon. even if you get tagged with the KD slow, you'e more than lkely still faster because you're permahaste speed.

pally/rogue: this build is taking GSF: abj at 23, imp crit at 27, and TOUGHNESS at 30. Drop toughness or imp crit, take epic prowess. There is no excuse here. Simply no excuse. Take your free AB. It's more important.

pally/fighter/rogue: drop KD pre epic, move GSF abj, pick up epic prowess. post KD spam world. Not necessary at all. alternately: you're a strength build, drop ESF: disc, you don't need it, and keep KD. alternately alternately:drop EWS as described above.

spellmonk: craft wand stands out as the one to drop. i would not drop max spell. fixing your stats to not need a great int also stands out as something very doable - 8 str/11 wis for example - however, this trades an AC at max for an AB, and so i feel it is not in the spirit of the question. however, given spellsword AC and buffs available, i would do it if i really wanted craft wand. i would drop craft wand in a heartbeat, but more importantly this was also made before the next round of spellsword nerfs and changes that moved the meta to divine spellsword. with the q-staff changes this build also loses 2 AB off the top, something it relied on since it decided to, very oddly, skip epic prowess. it's in a bad place now.

bard 25/fighter 5: has failed to take into account it gets bonus feats at 23 and 26 bard. it should be doing 26/4, because it does not need that 4 damage, it needs the extra AB as a primarily 3/4ths class with a -15 attack and 16 BAB. that feat them immediately becomes epic prowess. going 26/4 also picks up another feat it can use for whatever it'd like, such as moving lasting inspiration to a bard bonus feat, allowing it to pick up saves, a crafting feat, or whtever else it might like. damage vs ab is a big argument, but with the current meta especially, i really think you need to value AB much higher. you do 0 damage if you do not hit.

~~~~~

Ultimately I strongly believe every single build (outside the first 2, with clarifications) in that list benefits from changing a feat to pick up +1 AB. Basic functionality and a straight improvement to every aspect that the build is attempting to accomplish. Some of the builds up there are straight up outdated or flat out wrong, in my honest opinion, and have very serious issues far beyond a simple feat swap. I'm not going to get into arguments over 17 CL bard or 21 CL spellsword.

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Re: Earthkin Defender Changes Thread!

Post by Drowboy » Thu Nov 05, 2020 11:00 am

Weird aside but man those wiki builds sure should be taken with a grain of salt huh

Anyway, if your epic class features are meant to be class features, you should be allowed to choose them separately from epic feats.
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Re: Earthkin Defender Changes Thread!

Post by garrbear758 » Thu Nov 05, 2020 1:51 pm

Drowboy wrote:
Thu Nov 05, 2020 11:00 am
Weird aside but man those wiki builds sure should be taken with a grain of salt huh

Anyway, if your epic class features are meant to be class features, you should be allowed to choose them separately from epic feats.
Its not possible to make 2 seperate bonus feat lists, which is why ranger has 5 epic bonus feats for either FE or other bonus feats.
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Re: Earthkin Defender Changes Thread!

Post by Xerah » Thu Nov 05, 2020 4:17 pm

I'm aware that fighter 3 isn't enough to take specialization; it was in reference to taking other pre-epic fighter levels
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Re: Earthkin Defender Changes Thread!

Post by redhawx » Thu Nov 05, 2020 6:31 pm

TLDR: FEEDBACK
Some suggestions that slightly tweak some of the current abilities to let the Earthkindefender take advantage of his own strengths of being a tank
while still encouraging gathering up several earthkin-defenders to work in teams. Nothing of which will significantly empower the class beyond what is already suggested. Aside from possibly a suggestion to add one more epic feat (that is lost due to the changes). These changes is a meld of the tank aspect and the tactician aspect both supported by the lore of the class.


CONCEPTUALLY
I like the attempt to make the earthkin-defender into a class that benefit from teaming up with others and perhaps especially with other earthkin-defenders.
But i cannot help but feel that it is not done in a way that do miss the mark slightly. I have spoken with many people that play or have played the class that feels
quite underwhelmed with the changes. There is few options for those that wish to build on the strength of the class. Nor does it seem to target the issue how the barbarian a class far superior at
dealing damage also remain a more defensible choice in most aspects.
Ultimately i do agree that the path to open up the Earthkin-Defender to become a Tactical Warrior that benefits his allies is a good one. One that make sense - i cannot speak for the halflings or the gnomes as i
have not read much into their lore on war but it is very much in theme with the dwarven way of war to focus on small unit tactics and on working together.

There is a trend to add things that make other classes more tanky in a way that the Earthkin Traditionally has been "best" at.
Damage immunity added to classes like Warlock, Hexblade, possibly Fighters and Barbarians aswell as to certain races.
Mainwhile any ways for the class to actually capitalize on this strength is denied in this overhaul.
Why is the Earthkindefender, that is often described as a master of defense not as good as a fighter as taking care of his equipment, nor can the class rest in the armour. Nor does the class
recieve scaling AC while within armor. These are all abilities that thematically make alot of sense for the Earthkin Defender that is a class that is about protection.
When (If?) fighters will be given 20% dmg immunity for 1 feat and one epic feat.
How good is that 3 epic feats spent for 9 DR then?
Not the mention the fighter can also take those 3 epic feats for that 9 DR but can make even more use of them due to having that 20% dmg immunity.
It is those considerations that have me feel like they do not value what the earthkin defender should be best at - defense.
Scaling AC for swashbucklers and Invisible blade. Dmg immunity for warlocks, hexblades, barbarians and soon fighters.
Mainwhile the class with "Defense" in it's name, has one ability to boost it's own AC that put it on same level of AC as a STR barb.
And it's soak is subpar when compared to dmg immunity. Especially if combined with damage reduction.

The feedback below might address some of those concerns that let the class be about - helping
others. While still growing in it's own abilitys as a tank without for that part becomming overtuned due to those abilities being cooldown based. Cooldowns is also something a clever opponent can play around and a clever
earthkin-defender can attempt to play to the strengths of when abilities is activated and when they are not.

FEEDBACK TO THE CLASS:

Suggestion: Deterrence
Duration: 18 Seconds, Cooldown 120 seconds.

Assuming 20 natural constitution the biteback will be 5-15 dmg.
Acid sheeth scroll is 1d6+18 (cl9) and lasts 54 seconds.
Elemental Shield Wand is 1d6+12 damage and lasts 72 seconds and also give 50% immunity to cold and fire during this time.
The redeeming factor is that the biteback is AOE based and cannot be dispelled.
I am on the fence with this one. But given it's short duration and the fact it is weaker then a Acid-sheeth scroll i don't see why it would
not be ok to let this apply for the Earthkin-defender himself too. With two Earthkin Defenders in party
they could only keep it up for 36 seconds out of 120. That does not seem all to powerful.
And the earthkin defender holding biteback would fit right in with the theme of the class.

Suggestion: Damage reduction scaling
Once you reach epic level, instead of gaining 2 DR have the class gain 3 DR so that you are not forced to committ 20 levels to reach what you used to be able to get from 18 levels.
This would also let level 20 get something more ontop of that last feat at level 19. Because sinking 20 levels into the class should count. Problaby more then it does now.
And problaby even more so then this suggestion would have it do.


Suggestion: Safeguard
Duration: 24 seconds, Cooldown 120 seconds.

Let the short-duration buff to damage immunity apply to the earthkin defender that uses the ability aswell as others.
Ability to work together with other Earthkin Defenders is good. But the ability to boost your own damage immunity would not take away from it.
The duration is short and other Earthkin Defenders can still benefit you. If you time it right with them you can this way get damage-immunity for a longer period of time.
Right now, two earthkin-defender in party with the ability to increase damage immunity would not be able to benefit each other much.
This change if anything would more benefit team-working as there is still a cooldown and a short duration on this ability.
You need alot of earthkin defenders to cycle the damage immunity to a point it become near permanent and that would take some serious coordination to get done right.

Suggestion: Add Epic General Feats

I think it is reasonable to add one more feat gain at epic levels of Earthkin-defender and to add in more feats then just the class-based powers as feats that is selectable.
A lack of General Epic Feats at a class that is heavily encouraged to invest into the Epic Damage Reduction Feats is bad as they will have to tank three of their feats into something that "only" give nine damage reducation. T
he new abilities is cool and useful utility but the changes to remove two general epic feats for the new things goes in a direction that other classes has not been given for often blatant buffs.
If we compare to other classes like the ranger or the barbarian they will recieve a scaling to their most important class abilities without such and when they do have to spend feats (terryfying rage, or thundering rage) it is significant power-ups that cannot be compared to the jump of a non-epic variant of those abilities to a epic variant.

Suggestion: The hard punishment if you want UMD.

This one ties abit into the one above.
The Class does not address the concern that you will be slapped hard if you want to dip into a class with UMD and still go heavy into Earthkindefender. You will loose out on AB it as
you can only select ten level pree-epic and ten levels at epic. You can pull it off now going 16 Earthkin-defender and loose only 2 DR from the old 18 earthkin-defender build. While a twenty-earthkin defender build
that reach the old DR will be completely unable to pick up either UMD or THUMBLE at epic levels.

But that will still leave you one feat-short from the past. So i suggest adding another feat epic general feat somewhere between level 11-16 in earthkin defender.
Or possibly give one more Epic Feat for free similar to have it was done with the Armor Skin.
..
Thanks for the patience.
I hope it does not come across as bitter i am trying to be constructive.
I love that the devs is putting time into a class that i have long enjoyed to play despite it's gaping weaknesses and hopeless lack of strength as it stands.

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Re: Earthkin Defender Changes Thread!

Post by Tsunami » Thu Nov 05, 2020 6:55 pm

Firstly, let me say a huge thank you to Aniel for her time on the EKD Rework - Guys remember that developers have put alot of THEIR time into these reworks and such. As such i feel that is worth as shoutout in itself.

Please note that the below is untested and initial thoughts only (I only just finished work!) - I welcome people to contest points and bring to my attention things I may not consider!

Love Banner/Safeguard/Deterrence buffing others - gives alternatives to the 'unmoveable wall' style of DwD/EKD and gives them a purpose in group PVP. - Question? Has the balancing of large scale PVP (Event/Invasions) been considered? 26 SR to 30 PC's seems quite strong.

EDK losing some DR from its original lineup feels a step back rather than a step forward. The new feats are interesting and i cant wait to test them on PGCC, however I feel the changes favour more of a 'Jack of all trades' than a 'Master of Defence'? - Perhaps there is scope for each feat to be reworked upwards on numbers but with a penalty towards un-aligned playstyles. Such as Mounting Resistance offering +2/4/6 AC also or +5+10+15% DI, however at -2/4/6 AB. (I am not saying these numbers are balanced, merely explaining the concept :)! )

In my opinion A class known for its DR, should lose DR. - Especially when other classes are gaining DR/DI/Regen recently.

Updates to Fighter/Ranger/Barb cause this rework to feel a little overshadowed in defensive abilities. A high Barb feels like it would be a stronger concept for a 'I never want to die' then the class known in lore for being the defensive experts?

Biteback seems okay given it is cooldown based and is on a duration. - Numbers seems reasonable to be noticed, but not instantly feared.

Defensive Stance has lost 4 Con (soft), 2 Dodge AC, 2 Str,(But gained 1 AB - Trade off) But gained Temp HP (2xDwD/EKD). So it loses 2 AC & 60 HP for up to 40 Temp hp? It feels this is a nerf that makes iron stance required to feel back in line with the previously under utilised class (Additional feats disregarded).

On initial looks, the class looks like it will be slightly feat starved to be 'Bread and butter' - But the numbers are too evenly balanced to feel 'Master of X, Lacking in Y' - Would love to re-address this once i have tested some builds.

Overall love the ideas and concept - Gives ALOT more flair and 'fun' to what was a boring class, But i feel the rework takes too much defensiveness away from what the DwD/EDK had, that regaining it/alternatives from further feats feels a little underwhelming at current numbers.

Edit: Is there something that could be implemented at level 20 DwD/EKD? - Fully committing to the Defender feels it should have something to appeal to this a little more. Just my two-pence!

Again, Untested and initial thoughts only. I will be spending my free time on the PGCC and would welcome contact for further discussion/thoughts at #Icy9829 (Discord).
Last edited by Tsunami on Thu Nov 05, 2020 7:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Earthkin Defender Changes Thread!

Post by CNS » Thu Nov 05, 2020 8:05 pm

Epic prowess is absolutely a disposable feat.

redhawx
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Re: Earthkin Defender Changes Thread!

Post by redhawx » Thu Nov 05, 2020 8:10 pm

CNS wrote:
Thu Nov 05, 2020 8:05 pm
Epic prowess is absolutely a disposable feat.
To me it is not about Epic Prowess it is about loosing a general epic feat that can be used for different things. Epic Prowess is one of those things but not limited to it. We are speaking about a class that is extremely feat starved.

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Re: Earthkin Defender Changes Thread!

Post by jomonog » Thu Nov 05, 2020 9:20 pm

Love that its getting updated and also really like some of the new suggested feats, still feel on the whole its a little underpowered. I'm also very much against it being locked into wearing heavy armour for the reasons set out below. My suggestions are:

1. Expand requirement for heavy armour to medium and light as well. No robes if you dont want monk synergy even though I personally think why not? Otherwise though if heavy armor is required youre pretty much saying the only way to play earthkin defender is strength based. That really makes using hin and gnomes worse than dwarves, it also seems strange why the class gets defensive awareness (protect 1 ac from dex woot!) and even evasion is much worse on a low dex build with low reflex saves. Would make earthkin defender the only class hard locked into building strength toons only.

2. Agree with many that it needs the extra epic general feat as it is still really feat starved.

3. Give it tumble as a class skill. Open it up as a good dip class in its own right, as well as allow deep earthkin to max its AC potential without having to dip into a tumble class.

That is all, thanks for listening!

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Baron Saturday
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Re: Earthkin Defender Changes Thread!

Post by Baron Saturday » Thu Nov 05, 2020 9:37 pm

I guess my disagreement regarding the feat situation comes from the assumption that the epic class feats can also be used to pick anything on the EKD's epic feat list, i.e. ewf, prowess, edr, etc. If that's the case, then this change just seems like an addition of two feats. If it's NOT the case, then my bad.
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Re: Earthkin Defender Changes Thread!

Post by Svrtr » Thu Nov 05, 2020 9:39 pm

Baron Saturday wrote:
Thu Nov 05, 2020 9:37 pm
I guess my disagreement regarding the feat situation comes from the assumption that the epic class feats can also be used to pick anything on the EKD's epic feat list, i.e. ewf, prowess, edr, etc. If that's the case, then this change just seems like an addition of two feats. If it's NOT the case, then my bad.

Nope. The epic feats are epic class feats, which are only the abilities outlined in the changes/announcement. So the epic feats along with the third tier of the other feats that are general, as you must spend an epic feat to get the third tier of those tiered abilities.

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Re: Earthkin Defender Changes Thread!

Post by TimeAdept » Fri Nov 06, 2020 2:37 am

Svrtr wrote:
Thu Nov 05, 2020 9:39 pm
Baron Saturday wrote:
Thu Nov 05, 2020 9:37 pm
I guess my disagreement regarding the feat situation comes from the assumption that the epic class feats can also be used to pick anything on the EKD's epic feat list, i.e. ewf, prowess, edr, etc. If that's the case, then this change just seems like an addition of two feats. If it's NOT the case, then my bad.

Nope. The epic feats are epic class feats, which are only the abilities outlined in the changes/announcement. So the epic feats along with the third tier of the other feats that are general, as you must spend an epic feat to get the third tier of those tiered abilities.
This is correct, meaning that most DwD, even with free Armor Skin at 15, is now -1 feat compared to where it was vanilla, because they gained armor skin but lose 2 general feats at 14 and 18. It's the same with hexblade, who only gets exactly 4 epic feats even if pure, because their bonus epic feats can only be used to select class features.

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Baron Saturday
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Re: Earthkin Defender Changes Thread!

Post by Baron Saturday » Fri Nov 06, 2020 5:01 am

TimeAdept wrote:
Fri Nov 06, 2020 2:37 am
Svrtr wrote:
Thu Nov 05, 2020 9:39 pm
Nope. The epic feats are epic class feats, which are only the abilities outlined in the changes/announcement. So the epic feats along with the third tier of the other feats that are general, as you must spend an epic feat to get the third tier of those tiered abilities.
This is correct, meaning that most DwD, even with free Armor Skin at 15, is now -1 feat compared to where it was vanilla, because they gained armor skin but lose 2 general feats at 14 and 18. It's the same with hexblade, who only gets exactly 4 epic feats even if pure, because their bonus epic feats can only be used to select class features.
Apologies, then, evidently I didn't read the thread closely enough. That is rather... counterintuitive. Pretty much all other classes can pick their class feats OR a limited list of general epic feats when they get an epic bonus feat.
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Re: Earthkin Defender Changes Thread!

Post by Mattamue » Sun Nov 08, 2020 9:19 pm

Some testing:

It's possible to -fetch the banner and move it.

Who is the audience for this post?


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Re: Earthkin Defender Changes Thread!

Post by Svrtr » Sun Nov 08, 2020 9:54 pm

More Testing

1) Deterrence doesn't roll Xd3 for biteback damage for each hit, it rolls Xd3 when it is cast and ALL damage from biteback is that value

IE. we cast it and every hit did 9 biteback damage

2) DD abilities don't show up on the list when you use -cd

3) Resting in stance, both regular and iron, makes you lose the benefits of stance, but stance stays active and you remain slowed. Might be worth making stance deactivate when you rest.

4) The ability description for improved safeguard says 25% DI and not 15% DI

5) The description for iron stance says it adds 4 AB and 6 dodge AC but the character sheet says it only adds 2 AB and 4 dodge AC. After testing it does only add 2 AB and not 4 AB, not sure on AC yet but character sheet does only say 4

6) Mounting Resistance only gives 1/2/4 regeneration instead of 3/6/9
Last edited by Svrtr on Sun Nov 08, 2020 10:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Earthkin Defender Changes Thread!

Post by mjones3 » Sun Nov 08, 2020 10:07 pm

No damage reduction as a gold dwarf FS 22/ EKD 8

Also the Defenders banner has 2 APR and fights back.

Screenshot is relevant to both.

Image

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Re: Earthkin Defender Changes Thread!

Post by Aniel » Mon Nov 09, 2020 5:50 am

I'm not sure when it'll be live but I put together an update to do the following:
Earthkin Defender cooldowns appear when using the -cd command

The Banner cannot be moved with -fetch

Resting in defensive/iron stance should correct the movement speed as well.

Feat descriptions were updated to reflect reality.

There's a number of tweaks that still need to be done, namely different feat icons, some VFX, and other odd ends. Thanks to everyone for being patient.

I've been really short on time but I've been reading over this thread. Feedback on the changes isn't being ignored, just my energy is currently being directed to fixing more glaring bugs while I think about everything else.

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Re: Earthkin Defender Changes Thread!

Post by Freyason » Mon Nov 09, 2020 9:48 am

Mattamue wrote:
Thu Nov 05, 2020 2:21 am
and I added a note, per Xerah, that armor is required.
RIP my epic hin monk/ED

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Re: Earthkin Defender Changes Thread!

Post by Svrtr » Mon Nov 09, 2020 2:48 pm

Aniel wrote:
Mon Nov 09, 2020 5:50 am
I'm not sure when it'll be live but I put together an update to do the following:
Earthkin Defender cooldowns appear when using the -cd command

The Banner cannot be moved with -fetch

Resting in defensive/iron stance should correct the movement speed as well.

Feat descriptions were updated to reflect reality.

There's a number of tweaks that still need to be done, namely different feat icons, some VFX, and other odd ends. Thanks to everyone for being patient.

I've been really short on time but I've been reading over this thread. Feedback on the changes isn't being ignored, just my energy is currently being directed to fixing more glaring bugs while I think about everything else.
We still greatly appreciate the work done! Great work aniel!


Only other thing to mention is the awkwardness of DD's abilities not affecting yourself when you cast them. Understandable to encourage group play but the abilities are awkward, especially with long cool downs. Not a complaint but it does feel weird at times, though albeit this was of course with it being tested in the vacuum that is the PGCC

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Re: Earthkin Defender Changes Thread!

Post by Svrtr » Mon Nov 09, 2020 9:20 pm

More bug reports.

Mounting Resistance: Mounting resistance IS only 1/2/4 regeneration per tick, but it works even when stance is deactivated

P.S. it seems that if you are a DD vampire with mounting resistance that ONLY mounting resistance's regeneration goes through. Might be an error on my part but was a DD vampire and only got the 4 regen from DD and none of the regen from vampire. If it isn't supposed to stack, fair, but it is taking the weaker regeneration.

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Re: Earthkin Defender Changes Thread!

Post by redhawx » Mon Nov 09, 2020 10:11 pm

I made a comparision to the damage mitigating soak capabilities of the Earthkin-defender compared to Fighter if the new changes of both classes goes through. You can find it in the thread on new strength feats.
TLDR is that the Earthkin Defender underperforms in comparison.

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Re: Earthkin Defender Changes Thread!

Post by Mattamue » Tue Nov 10, 2020 5:14 am

Debilitating strike's -25% move speed isn't enough to catch up to and hit attack an opponent while you're in defensive stance. Also if you're not. This is tested on PGCC and not just theory crafting. Hitting someone with debil (and they pass the save) and they can still jog away as normal. This feels really bad for a round of flatfoot (I assume) activating.

Please consider further penalty. -37.5% would at least put it at the same speed as epic stance. It probably needs more.

Who is the audience for this post?


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Re: Earthkin Defender Changes Thread!

Post by Wings of Peace » Tue Nov 10, 2020 9:46 pm

My biggest concern is the value of some of the feats, but I like the overall idea. For example, Iron Stance is really good as a dip option to the point that I feel like it should have some sort of level requirement or something because otherwise it's 4ac on-demand for a three level investment. As far as the other feats... Magebane seems nice for PvE up to a point but there's helmets that give almost the same SR most EkD builds will be pulling and in PvP it's just not that much SR which makes its place as an epic option sort of meh. The regen also seems a little strong for a prc that can build towards 61ish ac but I don't know if that's a bad thing yet considering it'll be a disincentive for hyper defensive play which can be boring (the actual regen itself doesn't worry me too much since Divine Casters are a thing).

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