Should the Spear be a finess weapon?

[Tyrantos]

I personally think it would be cool.

[DangerDolphin]

I would be concerned that this would be giving it the quarterstaff/club treatment like Monks received. Weapons that used to be harmless and that we could potentially add better versions of for everyone, but have now been hijacked into an alternate use.

[garrbear758]

Not when it's already the best simple weapon in the game.

[a shrouded figure]

Yah... I tend to agree that spears are already amazing while not costing a feat to take advantage of.

[Richrd]

If spears were martial weapons? Yes.
But them being simple weapons? No.

[Gouge Away]

I don't think it should be spears but I think there is a need for a finesse weapon besides quarterstaff in the pole arm category, specifically for dex-based cavaliers so they don't have to take two full sets of weapon feats to have a weapon when off the horse.

(QS is not usable by small races and requires 2-weapon fighting feats so it's not ideal for cavaliers either.)

[Dalenger]

If spears were martial weapons? Yes.
But them being simple weapons? No.

Yah... I tend to agree that spears are already amazing while not costing a feat to take advantage of.

I still don't see why spear being a simple weapon is that big of a deal. Every mainstream finesse build that I've seen is either already gets martial weapon prof or will use monk weapons (and even monk dexers will probably pick it up). Please someone link me a half decent finesse build that doesn't already get martial weapons prof for free and would want to use spears instead of another simple weapon alternative.

In the mean time, I still think it's fair to compare spears to their next most obvious alternative, the scimitar. Scimitar crit on 18-20 for 2x, share weapon focus feats with off-handable weapons, and can be finessed. Spears get 3x damage but only crit on 20s, can be 2-handed... and I guess synergize better with a pure battle-bard dex build?? I'm honestly struggling to find a build that doesn't either want to use different class-specific weapons (like pure monks) or already get martial for free (basically everyone else).

Sorry, I just don't see it.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

"Why not?" <----

Because it would be the only non-martial/non-exotic weapon in the game with a x3 crit modifier that is also able to be used with weapon finesse, and the current modifications already make it an excellent tactical choice.

There are no finesse simple weapons with a x3 crit modifier other than spear, although rogues can use hand-axes (which are martial, and due to their size are tactically superior in the instance of dual-wielding- and also finesseable).

Lances don't count, their base damage is 1d0.

[Dalenger]

"Why not?" <----

Because it would be the only non-martial/non-exotic weapon in the game with a x3 crit modifier that is also able to be used with weapon finesse, and the current modifications already make it an excellent tactical choice.

There are no finesse simple weapons with a x3 crit modifier other than spear, although rogues can use hand-axes (which are martial, and due to their size are tactically superior in the instance of dual-wielding- and also finesseable).

Lances don't count, their base damage is 1d0.

Every mainstream finesse build that I've seen is either already gets martial weapon prof or will use monk weapons (and even monk dexers will probably pick it up). Please someone link me a half decent finesse build that doesn't already get martial weapons prof for free and would want to use spears instead of another simple weapon alternative.

If there were a myriad of (or even one!) finesse builds out there that didn't already get martial for free or didn't have good reason to use a different class-synergistic weapon, then I would agree with you. But as it stands, I can't think of a single build that would benefit from better spears that doesn't already have access to rapiers or scims. Maybe you could help me?

[a shrouded figure]

Dex drow cleric? *shrugs*

I just struggle to find the need for Spear to be finesse. If you want to hold a spear for roleplay, I don’t see why you can’t. It seems a bit like you theory crafted a build that needs a finesse spear to avoid spending a feat?

My wizard LARPs as an archer when he’s in town...

I believe spears are also already the only versatile non-exotic. Not only non-exotic, they’re simple... lol how many cookies does the spear really need?

[AstralUniverse]

Dex drow cleric? *shrugs*

Drow gets longsword and rapier as racial weapons, why would they ever hold a spear.

Maybe a human dex cleric that wants to use quarterstaff in epics can then use spear to level more conveniently before they dip ranger but this build(s) aint exactly must-nerf powerhouse tier *shrugs* I dont know.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

Dex drow cleric? *shrugs*

Drow gets longsword and rapier as racial weapons, why would they ever hold a spear.

Because both rapier and and longsword crit at x2, not x3 like the spear. Yes, I'm aware that often times the higher crit ratio outperforms the higher crit multiplier, but a dex-based cleric is an exception, because they can still -

Divine Power (str mod minimum +4)
Bless +1
Aid +1
Divine Favor +5
Prayer + 1
Greater Magic Weapon +5
Battletide +2
Divine Might + 9ish

That's 28 crittable bonus damage just from your own spells, which is well into the realm of high enough to justify a higher crit multiplier before you get item buffs like flame weapon and on-item elemental damage added.

Finesse builds already do well enough without Simple access to a 1-handed x3 crit weapon, and spears are already uniquely potent for their weapon tier; neither category needs the extra oomph.

The main question you should be asking yourself isn't what mainstream builds exist that don't already have martial, but what builds might suddenly be viable without sacrificing a feat or a class option elsewhere for that martial proficiency. Since a 1-handed simple finesse weapon with a x3 crit modifier has never existed in the history of this game, it's natural that no mainstream build takes advantage of that fact - yet.

But I find it highly unlikely that it would take long for several to manifest and perform a step above. In my head I'm looking at some variation of a weapon-master attached to a class that no longer needs martial proficiency to achieve a x4 crit modifier with finesse.

[Archnon]

Maybe I missed it, and someone already said it but wouldn't this be a big boon to dex-quarterstaff users, especially of the non-monk variety. Then in polearm, you would have 2 weapons that were finessable and one is two-handed and the other can be used with a shield. This would allow you to switch between two-weapon and sword and board without losing the bonus from weapon weapon focus.

[AstralUniverse]

Maybe I missed it, and someone already said it but wouldn't this be a big boon to dex-quarterstaff users, especially of the non-monk variety. Then in polearm, you would have 2 weapons that were finessable and one is two-handed and the other can be used with a shield. This would allow you to switch between two-weapon and sword and board without losing the bonus from weapon weapon focus.

Who are they and why are they dex based with quarterstaff and no monk lvls? They arent powerbuilds at risk of breaking the game. Anyway, I get that it's not going to happen because its already enough popular and fits a lot of builds as well.

[Good Character]

The only build that would be concerning that's dex-qstaff related is spellmonk. Versatility of more survivability (due to the off-hand weave AC) vs. APR. Spellmonk would easily achieve 60 AC (no haste, no IE) with the right build.

As cool as that sounds for me since I play a variation of a spellmonk, I rather not edge spellmonks to the point of a mandatory nerf.

[A MAN DRUNK ON POWER]

Rather, it would be better to look at history and note that weapons regularly fell out of favour to be replaced by others, and these generally weren't fads, but were evolutions of fighting forces where obsolescent tools of war were replaced by those that were better able to meet the challenges of the day.

Not that I am pro-finesse for spear, but in regards to this, the spear has routinely been a mainstay in pre-gunpowder armies. Medieval Europe was not dominated by swords, it was dominated by polearms and ranged weapons. Swords were not the primary weapon of medieval Europe or Asia or Africa or America. Polearms. Polearms and ranged weaponry were (and gunpowder-based weapons, when they got decent, werejust an evolution of ranged weaponry that made non-ranged weaponry /mostly/ obsolete as far as primary military armaments go)

[Ninjimmy]

Rather, it would be better to look at history and note that weapons regularly fell out of favour to be replaced by others, and these generally weren't fads, but were evolutions of fighting forces where obsolescent tools of war were replaced by those that were better able to meet the challenges of the day.

Not that I am pro-finesse for spear, but in regards to this, the spear has routinely been a mainstay in pre-gunpowder armies. Medieval Europe was not dominated by swords, it was dominated by polearms and ranged weapons. Swords were not the primary weapon of medieval Europe or Asia or Africa or America. Polearms. Polearms and ranged weaponry were (and gunpowder-based weapons, when they got decent, werejust an evolution of ranged weaponry that made non-ranged weaponry /mostly/ obsolete as far as primary military armaments go)

Might be worth adding the caveat that this largely applies to armies and it's also a lowest common denominator thing (easy to make, easy to use) - I don't think there's much evidence pole-arms were the weapon of choice for single units, they were meant to work in formations or with environmental help (though happy to be corrected, I'm not a particularly well-read historian).

Also, on-topic: I really can't imagine a spear being used for finesse unless we're aiming for a wuxia style thing which I'd argue is martial VS simple so would probably need a different weapon category.

[Wethrinea]

The whole concept of "finesse" weapons is a fantasy that only exist in games and movies, so there is no reason to try justify making weapons finesseable on RL history or experience. Swords have pretty much the same weight, whether it is a rapier, an arming sword or a two-handed longsword.

Swords, with the exception of those specifically made to be wielded with both hands, have always been sidearms and status symbols, something you draw when your polearm is no longer useful, for whatever reason.

The only question to consider in making the spear, or any other weapon finesseable, are the balance implications.

[AstralUniverse]

Alright!

Weapon master swashbuckler with Spear as an optional finessable weapon for swashbuckler with Elder Dream. That's a mega deal breaker for me.

[Hinty]

If one magic item is your sole argument for not buffing a weapon, then the issue is less that the weapon does not need a buff, but that that Magic Item needs a nerf.

What I am looking for here, is much more a way to make Spears viable for multiple classes, than specifically the finesse. Either put in some magic items that make spears viable for other classes, or nerf Elder Dream and make the base weapon better.

A whole base weapon should never need to be nerfed into uselessness for everyone just because ONE class would be OP with it, and that counts double for ONE class using ONE specific magic item.

The issue spears have right now is that Elder Dream means that all other spears have to be too weak to be truly viable.
Naginatas have a similar issue in that they are just Halberds with less base damage, worse crit AND an extra feat requirement, and all because someone decided that they had to be given bonuses for Monks.

[Ninjimmy]

The whole concept of "finesse" weapons is a fantasy that only exist in games and movies, so there is no reason to try justify making weapons finesseable on RL history or experience. Swords have pretty much the same weight, whether it is a rapier, an arming sword or a two-handed longsword.

Slightly off topic, my understanding of the finesse angle is less the weight and more the usable motions and 'style' of attacks.

Rapiers are finesse because the style of attack is smooth, artful or whatever words you want to apply to them that could equally apply to other swords but we're dealing with a fictional archetype and that's how it's displayed. So the weapons that use dex are the ones you expect to be seen used nimbly and quickly not used with pure strength behind the blow and the debate's less on historically which you'd need more of (it's always both) but on whether or not it fits the fantastical concept.

Though that could just be my assumption, I can't imagine anyone deciding finesse with a set of scales.

But by that metric, I still don't think spears would be finesse because they're big stabby sticks, I can't see someone using one for artful duels unless it's a wuxia style deal with Monk levels?

[Hinty]

Pretty much all weapons are used with finesse in the real world. The idea of the big heavy weapon swung with all your might is a work of fiction. Even a Greatsword or Dane Axe is much more about fast moves over short distances. If you take a big swing to get full momentum and strength in the blow, you just telegraph the blow making it a piece of cake to avoid AND leave yourself undefended for your opponent to stab before they even need to sidestep.

That is not to say you do not need to be strong to wield such weapons, just that how strong you are will affect how long you can wield it far more than how effectively. Your ability to land a blow is much more about how swiftly and accurately you can move to take advantage of an opponents openings.

The Fantasy rule is based more on the fantasy trope of the idea that most weapons are just about swinging them as hard as you can and crushing through your opponents defenses, while particularly light weight weapons get to be used with finesse because they are about going around the defenses. The Rapier being in this list is likely because when most people think of rapiers (especially back in the 80's and 90's) they think of fencing blades which are little more than a needle and are exceptionally light weight. Likely those who made the rule were unaware that rapiers in reality weigh the same as any other large one handed sword.

[Wethrinea]

[

Slightly off topic, my understanding of the finesse angle is less the weight and more the usable motions and 'style' of attacks.

Rapiers are finesse because the style of attack is smooth, artful or whatever words you want to apply to them that could equally apply to other swords but we're dealing with a fictional archetype and that's how it's displayed. So the weapons that use dex are the ones you expect to be seen used nimbly and quickly not used with pure strength behind the blow and the debate's less on historically which you'd need more of (it's always both) but on whether or not it fits the fantastical concept.

Though that could just be my assumption, I can't imagine anyone deciding finesse with a set of scales.

But by that metric, I still don't think spears would be finesse because they're big stabby sticks, I can't see someone using one for artful duels unless it's a wuxia style deal with Monk levels?

There is nothing about the rapier that makes it "more artfull" or nimble except the guard, which may be quite complex and pretty to look at. What seperates the rapier from the arming sword (Nwn longsword) is that the former is designed for thrusts while the latter can also cut well. They usually weigh the same, sometimes the rapier even more.

It is a misconception that some swords can be used efficiently without strenghth, or that agility can replace it. To be nimble and fast with any blade, you also have to be strong. No matter if it is a dagger (which usually involves a degree of wrestling), a rapier (which is heavy and need strong wrists to manipulate) or a two-handed longsword (that is closest to the spear of the three in terms of fighting style).

But again, this really has no bearing what weapons are finessable or not in NwN. We are playing a fantasy game here, and the weapon finesse feat exists only to allow dex chars to be melee fighters. So the only consideration should really be "Will making this weapon finessable make the game unbalanced in favour of dexers"?

[Ninjimmy]

[

Slightly off topic, my understanding of the finesse angle is less the weight and more the usable motions and 'style' of attacks.

Rapiers are finesse because the style of attack is smooth, artful or whatever words you want to apply to them that could equally apply to other swords but we're dealing with a fictional archetype and that's how it's displayed. So the weapons that use dex are the ones you expect to be seen used nimbly and quickly not used with pure strength behind the blow and the debate's less on historically which you'd need more of (it's always both) but on whether or not it fits the fantastical concept.

Though that could just be my assumption, I can't imagine anyone deciding finesse with a set of scales.

But by that metric, I still don't think spears would be finesse because they're big stabby sticks, I can't see someone using one for artful duels unless it's a wuxia style deal with Monk levels?

There is nothing about the rapier that makes it "more artfull" or nimble except the guard, which may be quite complex and pretty to look at. What seperates the rapier from the arming sword (Nwn longsword) is that the former is designed for thrusts while the latter can also cut well. They usually weigh the same, sometimes the rapier even more.

OK that's kinda... missing the point of what I was getting at? The back half of that very sentence was "or whatever words you want to apply to them that could equally apply to other swords but we're dealing with a fictional archetype and that's how it's displayed".

Every weapon needs strength and dexterity IRL, it's just which way we want to construct the fantasy and the whole "using a Rapier the same way modern fencers use a foil" imagery is why you'd call it finesse.

Which, again, may just be my interpretation and people really are deciding what's finesse or isn't based on weight but I'd be surprised.

[Nobs]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VM9wWtHozCM

Str vs dex

And yes its not real....nor is the game we play