Feedback: Bard PGCC Changes

[WarriorMage]

Good implementation of early feedback!

On reflection, SF Perform and Extra Music seems like traps. I'd suggest improving them to a 4min reduction per feat, for a total of 1 charge per 2min with both. Perhaps even then offer ESF Perform a 1min reduction too. Why?

Firstly, let's remind ourselves that Master Harper gets Infinite Song, so all this (with a 2-3 feat investment!) is still inferior to that.

Secondly, consider a 40min no-rest period. Without these two feats one gets 4 charges, and with them one gets 10 charges. So, basically, each of these feats are worth 3 song per rest. Prior to this update Extra Magic's bonus of 4 songs was considered a waste.

This.

Alternatively, add a further reduction of 3 minutes with ESF perform, on top of the other two feats for a total of 1 recharge per minute. If not, perhaps grant this 3 min reduction at lvl 28 instead, as a cookie for those who go pure?

At the end of the day, Master Harper will always be better with unlimited uses of bard song. This would at least reduce the gap for those who do not intend to take the harper class.

[Haroshia]

Weird bug on PGCC but

It looks like switching between curse songs isn't switching the damage dealt by the curse song. Although this is totally awesome it's also, I believe, not working as intended

[MalKalz]

Fixed the bug.

[A MAN DRUNK ON POWER]

Whilst this system is being looked at, could I suggest that Bard Song is added to the cooldown list?

-cd
"Time until next bard song: 10.00"

That sounds awful tbh, make every bard almost worthless until/if they pick up Lasting Inspiration.

EDIT: I think I misunderstood, I thought you were suggesting giving the bard song a 10 minute cooldown, but I realize you're referring to the -cd command that tells us about our ongoing cooldown timers. Sorry.

[Haroshia]

Another bug spotted. It looks like bard song's AB bonus is not stacking with PDK Rallying Cry, specifically Valiant. They probably share some sort of weird untyped type. This seems to be further evidenced by them overwriting.

[Haroshia]

Sorry for double posting, but a suggestion as well. Would it be possible to make the max DR from Watcher's Vigil 5/- similar to things like Epic DR? This means it can stack with other DR sources like the PDK Heroic Shield and acts as a buff to the already lagging Knight Protector path. As it stands now it feels like a bit of a trap option to have it synergize with PDK but not stack with already existing PDK mechanics. I don't think it would be unbalancing to allow one specific build to give 5 DR that stacks with other DR sources at level 30.

[Poolbrain]

My take on the changes:

Still spell change:

Awesome!

Refreshing songs:

Awesome!

Song replenishment:

Cool!

Main song nerf:

I think the nerf to the normal song is okay! Bards are already very strong. adding some temp hp could be nice.

New Curse songs:

I like the damage options!

New buffs songs:

Pro:
Fun! There's a lot of fun situational stuff, like healing your party, protecting against notorious fire traps and so on.

Cons:

Few seem better that the original bard song though in all regards since the skill bonus for most songs are the same or worse than the main song unless you can squeeze out a small bonus from taking the right multiclass.

So I don't understand the point with the skill bonuses most bonus songs seem redundant unless you take the epic preform. Maybe hide the song behind taking the epic preform since they don't do anything over the original song without it?

Ways to make bards even more fun:

I think with the nerf and the amount of new songs it could be amazing if the buff song was made instant cast since it's hard to keep up with a group with the long cast animation, especially since you want to sing more often. This could be amazing and feel so good and intuitive, could be RPed like the bard quickly adapting his music to what's happening around her.

Possibly only instant if a song is already active so it doesn't change wind up time. Maybe a cool down of a round or so between songs to avoid potential abuse/ weird stuff

Curse song should definitely not be instant however.

[Dreams]

I thought you were suggesting giving the bard song a 10 minute cooldown, but I realize you're referring to the -cd command that tells us about our ongoing cooldown timers. Sorry.

Yep! All I mean is to add some feedback through the -cd command so we can tell when more of the songs will be regained, since it will basically always be happening.

[DangerDolphin]

Another bug spotted. It looks like bard song's AB bonus is not stacking with PDK Rallying Cry, specifically Valiant. They probably share some sort of weird untyped type. This seems to be further evidenced by them overwriting.

These effects are the same as they have always been, so I believe that was always the case (And not easily fixable)

[garrbear758]

They should stack in combat logs but not on the character sheet

[Quidix]

There now several 'immunity to X' affects here, most pertinently Fear (eg PDK fear and Barbarian terrifying rage) and Poisons (eg poisons on weapons, a mechanic which is already pretty weak and reliant on fishing for 1s).

Just want to open discussion if that is intentional as it is situationally very powerful. A +5 specific save feels like a better balancing choice.

[Beard Master Flex]

I've never encountered a disease or poison that resulted in a life or death situation with massive ramifications in RP/conflict, nor can I envision one.

At most I can see this saving someone in the Underdark from the constant misstep of a mushroom cloud and a roll of a 1. A cool little bonus that would make me go "Wow, thanks Bard!" when I roll three 1's in a row from one mushroom cloud.

Keep in mind the bard has to be specifically singing this song AND you have to actually have a bard in your party.

As for the fear, no one likes Dragon Fear. It's the most annoying thing in Arelith next to Mushroom clouds and cackle fever!

[A MAN DRUNK ON POWER]

Another bug spotted. It looks like bard song's AB bonus is not stacking with PDK Rallying Cry, specifically Valiant. They probably share some sort of weird untyped type. This seems to be further evidenced by them overwriting.

These effects are the same as they have always been, so I believe that was always the case (And not easily fixable)

I don't know about PGCC but on live Arelith the PDK rallying cry and bard song completely stack, IDK what Haroshia is seeing but if they don't actually stack anymore (/on character sheet/ I should note) then that is new and probably a bug.

[DangerDolphin]

We figured out it was character sheet only bug, they stack in the combat log.

With regards to immunities: Yes, I agree they are not great, but they are generally attached to songs which have fewer
general PvP benefits (Healing harmony and Dragonslayer) and not something we give away for free

[Preytoria]

Sorry for double posting, but a suggestion as well. Would it be possible to make the max DR from Watcher's Vigil 5/- similar to things like Epic DR? This means it can stack with other DR sources like the PDK Heroic Shield and acts as a buff to the already lagging Knight Protector path. As it stands now it feels like a bit of a trap option to have it synergize with PDK but not stack with already existing PDK mechanics. I don't think it would be unbalancing to allow one specific build to give 5 DR that stacks with other DR sources at level 30.

Another thing to consider is that only 20/10 bard/pdk or full 30 bards will get +5/5. Level twenty bards will only get +3/3 and 16 bards will get +2/2 -- both of which won't do much seeing as everyone uses a standard +3 weapon at the least. A flat Bard/6 /- that stacked with the other DR sources would be nice and make it an option regardless of if you do 16 bard or 20 bard.

[AstralUniverse]

I dont think it should stack with other DR sources because it would be too strong, but I do think the modifier could be /+5 for all levels. Up to 5 damage reduced at 30 bard is not imbalanced.

[The Hazards of Love]

One thing I do feel is being overlooked also is the fact that Bard is probably the only class it's useless/undesirable to have more than one of in any outing. Having multiple bards always leaves at least one feeling like a mediocre fighter when they aren't songing. This isn't the case with pretty much any other class, which can always contribute even if they have another party member filling their role.

Obviously I'm not suggesting that songs directly stack, but if the class is being looked at I feel that it would be a shame if this glaring flaw were overlooked.

[mjones3]

In the past having 2 bards was awesome. 1 would sing boon songs and the other curse songs. You can still do the same from the sounds of it its just less likely now with the changes that bards will need to limit their songs as much as before.

[Ork]

Fear immunity does not block barbarians rage, and shouldn't (didn't formerly) block PDK's fear. PDK's fear needs a fix. Change the name to "frightful presence" if you have to mesh it with fear immunity.

[Bunnysmack]

Fear immunity does not block barbarians rage, and shouldn't (didn't formerly) block PDK's fear. PDK's fear needs a fix. Change the name to "frightful presence" if you have to mesh it with fear immunity.

http://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Barbarian :

The debuff duration is 1d3 + base CON mod rounds. Mind protection defends against the stun effect, but not the debuff. Fear immunity protects against Terrifying Rage.

On what do you base that? I'll admit, I haven't run a specific test on this in PGCC, but the wiki seems clear that the intent is that fear immunity does block terrifying rage.

[Dreams]

Neither of them are blocked.

[Cyanide_bullet]

I think it's a mistake to remove trickery domain from Pilfering Poems. Opens up a lot of divinie thivery characters and i for one wouldn't mind playing one. And i don't see it as a trap for beginners in the same way another caster would be.

[Bunnysmack]

I think it's a mistake to remove trickery domain from Pilfering Poems. Opens up a lot of divinie thivery characters and i for one wouldn't mind playing one. And i don't see it as a trap for beginners in the same way another caster would be.

Ummmmm...Don't suppose you read up about the heated opinions a few pages back, but that PARTICULAR combination is steeped in a lot of controversy at the moment o.o

[Cyanide_bullet]

I think it's a mistake to remove trickery domain from Pilfering Poems. Opens up a lot of divinie thivery characters and i for one wouldn't mind playing one. And i don't see it as a trap for beginners in the same way another caster would be.

Ummmmm...Don't suppose you read up about the heated opinions a few pages back, but that PARTICULAR combination is steeped in a lot of controversy at the moment o.o

Nope i did not! Thanks! And now that i have i'm even more in favour of it. I don't want to discuss the quarterbreaking niche here because it might be find out in game. But:
1) It's not hard to break end game chests( since neigh everyone has a pocked pixie making a real thief/lockpicker void) [I wish this wasn't the case]
2) There just is no way for a str based rogue/bard/cleric to break a the needed dcs of a highend quarter. The only thing that happens is that the +50 skill points are filled more easily. There are still some serious problems to solve.
3) Having cleric trickery atleast gives something flavourfull. Quarterbreaking will always be a all-in business. (So what. If it's abused thats a problem for devs to solve).

That said. I'm liking the the feedback so far other than that. And i especially like that now a high level bard offers more against specific enemies. [Oh we are fighting dragons? Well here's a few bard tales and songs of previous adventuerers who have slayed such beasts]. Super flavourfull. Love it.

[Bunnysmack]

But songs of dragon killing are horrible! How would YOU feel if people sung songs about elf killing or human killing!

But jokes aside, while I AM neutral on the issue of quarterbreaking, a lot of other people have apparently seen it abused or been personally abused by it but it does fall enough inside the rules to not be a DM discipline problem, and arguably...Making the necessary mechanics to pull it off no longer available via changes to bard song mechanics is the way devs are solving this problem.

Just playing devil's advocate on the matter, as I did earlier to give counterarguments against the anti-quarterbreaker posts a few pages back.