Feedback: Bard PGCC Changes

[Haroshia]

people assume that div dips are required to have good saves. a 25/5 bard/fighter can still have good saves. it would just gear uni/specific save instead of cha. bard is ref/will, fighter is fort. very possible to get high 30s in all saves.

the current meta spread for div is 26/4, not 25/5 (26 bard is a bonus feat, you take the 4 div pre epic for apr, and bard has disc so no reason to take a 5th). it does not get toughness. it is too feat-tight.

20/5/5 bard/fighter/paladin isn't the spread you'd do. it'd be 21/6/3 or a minor variation thereof (12/5/3 pre epic). you would have 5 epic feats (4 general, 1 from fighter 6). they would be: epic weapon focus, armor skin, esf: perform, lasting inspiration, and epic weapon spec.

also nerfing div dips for bards won't change the "div dip is the only way to bard" mentality. it just means you're going to have even less bards. 26/4 is already very strong but you don't see many of them. removing the big swing of div ac won't help.

which comes to your statement: if you stop bard song from stacking to AC and damage, you achieve near parity with a non-divine dip assuming Divine Might/Shield are active.

since comparable saves can be achieved on a div-less bard, with your proposed changes.. why would you go div? if you have to maintain div shield/div might just to be comparable, what's the incentive?

I'm basing the changes on the changes to bard spells currently proposed, not the current breakpoints for bard stuff.

As I illustrated in the conclusion, the raw numbers are still better just not MUCH better. 25/5 isn't ideal, but 20/5/5 has comparable numbers with Div Might/Shield not active and WAY better with them active. Also keep in mind that Divine Grace doesn't contribute to the save cap, so you can STILL hit max magical bonus to cha/str/con and have far better saves with a divine build.

I'd much rather find a way to bring mundanes in line with div dips, because as I illustrated the numbers are BANANAS. I just don't know how.

Your argument is essentially saying if I don't want to be a divine bard, I shouldn't play a strength bard. The non-divine numbers are still very playable in my experience. I'll admit I'm not the most knowledgeable of PvP numbers, but if the numbers required to be competitive are twice what mundanes can get then I may as well just delete character and take your advice to not play a non-divine bard. I'd also encourage deleting any non-divine dip bard builds from the wiki.

[Zavandar]

half the builds on the wiki are a trap

also i'm confused. you want to nerf div dips but illustrate in your prior post that 20/5/5 is the best

i know div grace doesn't contribute to the save cap, but saves beyond around 37-38 are superfluous.

[Itikar]

which comes to your statement: if you stop bard song from stacking to AC and damage, you achieve near parity with a non-divine dip assuming Divine Might/Shield are active.

since comparable saves can be achieved on a div-less bard, with your proposed changes.. why would you go div? if you have to maintain div shield/div might just to be comparable, what's the incentive?

That's precisely the goal, so one will be able to play all bards of all the nine alignments equally, instead of only four.

Besides, the divine might would still be there for divine bards, as would the extra ac from divine shield, and other benefits of the divine classes, i.e. like having better saves and being able to gear for constitution.

[Zavandar]

which comes to your statement: if you stop bard song from stacking to AC and damage, you achieve near parity with a non-divine dip assuming Divine Might/Shield are active.

since comparable saves can be achieved on a div-less bard, with your proposed changes.. why would you go div? if you have to maintain div shield/div might just to be comparable, what's the incentive?

That's precisely the goal, so one will be able to play all bards of all the nine alignments equally, instead of only four.

but this doesn't make non-divs better, it just makes divs worse (and you already don't see many). why do you think you'd see more if the best variant was nerfed (and according to haroshia, 20/5/5 is still the best anyway)?

[Itikar]

but this doesn't make non-divs better, it just makes divs worse (and you already don't see many). why do you think you'd see more if the best variant was nerfed (and according to haroshia, 20/5/5 is still the best anyway)?

Well, it would certainly level the play field, and that in a roleplay server, where alignment should be chosen for roleplay, is something undeniably positive.

It's the same reason why monk ac does not work in polymorph for druids, so the playfield is leveled with non-lawful druids. Did non-lawful druids become better for it? No, but it was necessary nonetheless.

Speaking of monks, a similar change was passed specifically for monk ac and divine shield, so it would be pretty consistent, in the end.

[Haroshia]

which comes to your statement: if you stop bard song from stacking to AC and damage, you achieve near parity with a non-divine dip assuming Divine Might/Shield are active.

since comparable saves can be achieved on a div-less bard, with your proposed changes.. why would you go div? if you have to maintain div shield/div might just to be comparable, what's the incentive?

That's precisely the goal, so one will be able to play all bards of all the nine alignments equally, instead of only four.

but this doesn't make non-divs better, it just makes divs worse (and you already don't see many). why do you think you'd see more if the best variant was nerfed (and according to haroshia, 20/5/5 is still the best anyway)?

20/5/5 isn't MASSIVELY the best. It's the best to the bard in their own raw damage, but it DOES deny the group they're singing to 1 AC. It's a tradeoff. You're exactly right though, this does nerf div dips. As for the "You already don't see many of them" argument, that's again based on the current functioning of bard song. Bard song right now gives you the most bang for your buck at 16 levels. With these changes as I illustrated you need to go deeper bard but the numbers get even MORE wild than you can get them now.

[Zavandar]

but this doesn't make non-divs better, it just makes divs worse (and you already don't see many). why do you think you'd see more if the best variant was nerfed (and according to haroshia, 20/5/5 is still the best anyway)?

Well, it would certainly level the play field, and that in a roleplay server, where alignment should be chosen for roleplay, is something undeniably positive.

It's the same reason why monk ac does not work in polymorph for druids, so the playfield is leveled with non-lawful druids.

it would lower the playing field.

monoshape druids can't even dip monk and the monk dip made dragonshape op (it can already get mid 60's ac).

i have also seen MANY more druids than div bards (especially pre mono nerf (which again, didn't even go monk)). why do you think that is?

[Zavandar]

That's precisely the goal, so one will be able to play all bards of all the nine alignments equally, instead of only four.

but this doesn't make non-divs better, it just makes divs worse (and you already don't see many). why do you think you'd see more if the best variant was nerfed (and according to haroshia, 20/5/5 is still the best anyway)?

20/5/5 isn't MASSIVELY the best. It's the best to the bard in their own raw damage, but it DOES deny the group they're singing to 1 AC. It's a tradeoff. You're exactly right though, this does nerf div dips. As for the "You already don't see many of them" argument, that's again based on the current functioning of bard song. Bard song right now gives you the most bang for your buck at 16 levels. With these changes as I illustrated you need to go deeper bard but the numbers get even MORE wild than you can get them now.

it would be 21/6/3, i have said this already.

if you're alluding to the 17/7/6 bard/wm/fighter, that was never an especially great build to begin with. it could get big numbers but singing is counter-intuitive to wm play. again, there is a reason you didn't see many of them to begin with.

no other good/decent builds went below 20 bard aside for dips.

edit:

there is 16/10/4 bard/pdk/div but i don't think that's a good build

[Preytoria]

That's precisely the goal, so one will be able to play all bards of all the nine alignments equally, instead of only four.

but this doesn't make non-divs better, it just makes divs worse (and you already don't see many). why do you think you'd see more if the best variant was nerfed (and according to haroshia, 20/5/5 is still the best anyway)?

20/5/5 isn't MASSIVELY the best. It's the best to the bard in their own raw damage, but it DOES deny the group they're singing to 1 AC. It's a tradeoff. You're exactly right though, this does nerf div dips. As for the "You already don't see many of them" argument, that's again based on the current functioning of bard song. Bard song right now gives you the most bang for your buck at 16 levels. With these changes as I illustrated you need to go deeper bard but the numbers get even MORE wild than you can get them now.

Keep in mind bard < level 20 is going to have to live without lasting inspiration. And is that really living? I think not.

[Dreams]

Haroshia, I don't think gunning to nerf the builds that aren't the same as yours is the right way, when faced with the reality that the one you've chosen isn't really a good choice. Bards will have rebuilds, you've got a chance to improve it.

[Haroshia]

Haroshia, I don't think gunning to nerf the builds that aren't the same as yours is the right way, when faced with the reality that the one you've chosen isn't really a good choice. Bards will have rebuilds, you've got a chance to improve it.

It's not personal. It's just looking at the numbers. If the goal is that div bard builds are the baseline then you have my agreement. It just means no other str bard build is viable. What I proposed was a way to achieve parity between div and non-div based on the math I've seen. If doing that just makes str bards undesirable as a whole because the overall numbers are too low, then ignore everything I've said.

Just caution people to never make a str bard that isn't LG or Evil, because they're so undesirable that bringing div bards in line with them would make the class non-viable.

[Itikar]

it would lower the playing field.

Not any more than the other nerfs I mentioned did, and it would probably be a very welcome addition, that could allow the whole class to be improved. But we know it will not happen.

The reality is that divine dips are for bards something that has noticeably been overtuned from years. Blackbards are a staple from the early days of NWN like druid monks were, and there is little point in even trying to deny it.

So, I will keep saying it, divine bards are the ones that needs to be put more in balance with non-divine bards, plain and simple. It would simply benefit the economy of the class and build diversity. How it is achieved is up to the developers, but nerfing them directly is certainly sensible in my eyes, and I find the argument proposed to defend them not convincing at all.

[Preytoria]

Haroshia, I don't think gunning to nerf the builds that aren't the same as yours is the right way, when faced with the reality that the one you've chosen isn't really a good choice. Bards will have rebuilds, you've got a chance to improve it.

It's not personal. It's just looking at the numbers. If the goal is that div bard builds are the baseline then you have my agreement. It just means no other str bard build is viable. What I proposed was a way to achieve parity between div and non-div based on the math I've seen. If doing that just makes str bards undesirable as a whole because the overall numbers are too low, then ignore everything I've said.

Just caution people to never make a str bard that isn't LG or Evil, because they're so undesirable that bringing div bards in line with them would make the class non-viable.

As long as you have bard song, you are viable. Personally, I just don't like the AC fighter/bard sits at with how low hp it has. I'd rather not constantly sit in improved expertise mode. The bonus feats are nice, though.

[Haroshia]

Keep in mind bard < level 20 is going to have to live without lasting inspiration. And is that really living? I think not.

Also a fair point, but with the new song changes you don't have to!

[Dreams]

For the latest change:

Players will get their friends to make bards of various races to unlock the songs for them. This is going to happen, and they'll make the same justifications as other kinds of things of this nature - new wizard spells with players deleveling and scribing/releveling to complete their books.

Songs are going to effectively be gated behind who you know OOC.

I understand the intention to encourage the RP of bards getting together, sharing songs and stories. I love that idea. I just don't think it's going to turn out the way you've planned.

[AstralUniverse]

If you RP in a none inclusive fashion and just camp a hub with your ooc clique you are viewed in a certain light around here. I dont think it's really any different with the songs. If you dont teach songs to other bards you have less RP to offer other bards. Simple as that.

[DangerDolphin]

For the latest change:

Players will get their friends to make bards of various races to unlock the songs for them. This is going to happen, and they'll make the same justifications as other kinds of things of this nature - new wizard spells with players deleveling and scribing/releveling to complete their books.

Songs are going to effectively be gated behind who you know OOC.

I understand the intention to encourage the RP of bards getting together, sharing songs and stories. I love that idea. I just don't think it's going to turn out the way you've planned.

So - I get that right now, it's kind of a rush to get the best PvP songs for the existing 30s. I apologise if the way they were seeded means it's harder to get the essential PvP songs - I will make sure those ones have explorable locations for them too.

New bards starting after this update I don't think will have those pains, as it won't be that essential to have those PvP songs at level 3 when the best effects are locked behind an Epic Skill Focus anyway. I would hope that they just take the time to explore, find songs naturally and pick them up gradually from RPing with other more established bards.

If people are desperate to have these songs all at level 2 and get them dumped OOCly - sure, I guess? I think it's a shame but I'm not going to go maliciously coding against that.

[the grim yeeter]

If people are desperate to have these songs all at level 2 and get them dumped OOCly - sure, I guess? I think it's a shame but I'm not going to go maliciously coding against that.

Not all at level 2 per se, but gained with level progression like any other class gets its abilities, feats and spells? Absolutely, yes. It's only fair and, let's face it, another teaching mechanic will not lead to more (meaningful) roleplay, really. We all know how languages are "taught". It would turn out the exact same way for songs. Maybe here and there, there will be roleplay sessions where a duo or group teach some self-written song to another, but they can do that without the mechanic just fine.

[Good Character]

Are these new songs just offering different bonuses?

[Quidix]

It would be nice if the really good songs were included in the default, in particular: Healing Harmonies, Watcher’s Vigil

'Healing Harmonies' is a really good song only known by halflings, and it will be hard for UD races to learn this.

[Preytoria]

Are these new songs just offering different bonuses?

These new 'songs' operate much like streams. They are added bonuses atop the revised bard song/curse song.

[Skarain]

It would be nice if the really good songs were included in the default, in particular: Healing Harmonies, Watcher’s Vigil

'Healing Harmonies' is a really good song only known by halflings, and it will be hard for UD races to learn this.

Remember; we're the evil UD. Send out your spies, send out your slavers. Some Enchanment magic or other "persuatio" on a captured Hin and volá. We've even got a teleport-proof jail now!

I play a Bard and I do not mind going through some effort to get songs. I am fine with the implimentation.

[Quidix]

The problem isn't "finding a hin", but "getting a hin, bard, prisoner that will be willing to teach the specific song", which is a much smaller subset. And monster races can't disguise on the surface to get them.

I'm not against the general mechanic of learning from each other, but that Healing Harmony, one of the best levelling songs is so gated and difficult to get for UD monsters.

Another simple solution: Just ensure Healing Harmony is granted to an UD race (given poison elements, seems thematic for trogs).

[helitron]

A nice addition to the system would be the ability to write the songs on paper and sell them to other bards. Similar to prisms.

It should require 1000xp and some expensive components, but would enable bards to sell the scores in their shops for other bards to learn.

That way a sneaky drow could buy a song in Bendir, or the other way round, a surface hin could get access to UD songs without needing a goblin or drow to teach them.

[Skarain]

True, but you only need to catch one bard, hin or not, who have learned that song from a hin or from being a hin.

Never said it would be easy, but gives at least something to work towards that isn't just filling your exp meter.