Feedback: Bard PGCC Changes

[Dreams]

That’s my whole point. Some of these songs are now racially locked. Many players have shown in the past that they have happy to take the easy way, if the mechanics are too messy or if they are unnecessarily restrictive.

It’s not like any of these song abilities actually make sense for the races they’re assigned to other that a very light thematic.

[Garvik]

Is it confirmed for the racial songs that these can only be learned by teaching? Or are there ways to learn them through "exploration"?

[Skarain]

There is a list of songs that can be learned through exploration. It is in the Arelith Updates thread. Healing Harmony is there aswell, btw.

[Kessarin]

If people are desperate to have these songs all at level 2 and get them dumped OOCly - sure, I guess? I think it's a shame but I'm not going to go maliciously coding against that.

Not all at level 2 per se, but gained with level progression like any other class gets its abilities, feats and spells? Absolutely, yes. It's only fair and, let's face it, another teaching mechanic will not lead to more (meaningful) roleplay, really. We all know how languages are "taught". It would turn out the exact same way for songs. Maybe here and there, there will be roleplay sessions where a duo or group teach some self-written song to another, but they can do that without the mechanic just fine.

Agreed.

Please don’t mistake me; I think the new songs are neat and I’m looking forward to them. However, my bard PC is one whose RP has led her towards being a city dweller - a bureaucrat who doesn’t get out much. And I’m okay with that, because it’s wonderful RP! Am I penalized for that RP choice because now I either have to 1) wait for other PCs to go forth and adventure, or 2) abandon my own RP for a while so I can go forth and adventure, simply so I can have access to songs that my PC - a bard of Oghma, the patron of bards - could, should be able to learn in other ways?

[Quidix]

There is a list of songs that can be learned through exploration. It is in the Arelith Updates thread. Healing Harmony is there aswell, btw.

That's good news and I hadn't noticed that!

On a separate note, is there any, even faint hint, on where to start these hunts beyond "somewhere on Arelith there is some way to learn it"?

[the grim yeeter]

On a separate note, is there any, even faint hint, on where to start these hunts beyond "somewhere on Arelith there is some way to learn it"?

Do you dare question the powerful abbreviation that is FOIG?

[Skarain]

My guess would be to go and talk to every NPC in the module, starting from Cordor, moving to other towns, taverns and so-on.

That's what I'll be doing in the Underdark; just talk with every single NPC I can access without murder.

[the grim yeeter]

Sounds like a lot of fun.

[AstralUniverse]

However, my bard PC is one whose RP has led her towards being a city dweller - a bureaucrat who doesn’t get out much. And I’m okay with that, because it’s wonderful RP! Am I penalized for that RP choice because now I either have to 1) wait for other PCs to go forth and adventure, or 2) abandon my own RP for a while so I can go forth and adventure, simply so I can have access to songs that my PC - a bard of Oghma, the patron of bards - could, should be able to learn in other ways?

While some bards have the advantage of being great explorers, other bards have the advantage of being a famous city bards or just city officials and they can in theory meet a lot of other bards, and hear songs from distant corners of the world, potentially gaining songs faster than explorers. There are two sides to this coin. Also without really pointing fingers at your RP, maybe your bard /should/ adventure sometimes if their goal is to learn new things and discover new mysteries. I dont, honestly, think it makes a lot of sense for a bard to gain progress as a bard by sitting in the city doing city things (unless you perform in theater every week), and again, I dont know your character or what they do, I just speak generally.

[DangerDolphin]

My guess would be to go and talk to every NPC in the module, starting from Cordor, moving to other towns, taverns and so-on.

That's what I'll be doing in the Underdark; just talk with every single NPC I can access without murder.

So, they're not buried inside any NPC conversations. The songs are found just by walking around the right areas. These areas are typically (but not always) dungeons that take a little effort to get to.

I'm not against the general mechanic of learning from each other, but that Healing Harmony, one of the best levelling songs is so gated and difficult to get for UD monsters.

It's not. It will be easily discoverable in the Underdark in a low level area.

Most songs you will just stumble upon while you level up or walk around cities. The rest will be very easy to pick up from other bards.

I would hope this will lead to people making new friends and RP buddies, but I'm sure there will be some "login ur bard alt plz" too. People doing the latter are cheating themselves out of some potential RP imo, but that's their prerogative.

[the grim yeeter]

stuff

Since when were mechanics required for people to roleplay something? All these things you're hoping to happen were possible before this big song update too, for years. The only difference now is that the people who don't feel like roleplaying it (probably the majority of the playerbase, which is absolutely fine, by the way) still have to go through all these areas to get their class abilities (which, I will say again, other classes don't).

In fact, if anything, all this does is limit people's roleplay in the sense that they're somewhat "forced" into roleplaying that their characters learn their songs from going through these particular areas, the same way every other bard on Arelith will do from now on (ignoring the "teaching" aspect for a moment here). Wouldn't it be much cooler if we allowed players themselves to come up with their own, individual stories behind the songs that they know/have written? It is that freedom that attacts so many players to this server after all.

[DangerDolphin]

stuff

Why would/should a mechanic be required for people to roleplay something? All these things you're hoping to happen, could've been done before this big song update too, for years. The only difference now is that the people who don't feel like roleplaying it (probably the majority of the playerbase) still have to go through all these areas to get their class abilities (which, I will say again, other classes don't)

You mean like Rangers and studied enemies? Is the fact that you have to do something in game related to your class abilities so bad?

I've added ways to find these songs by exploring, or by relatively cheaply having another bard teach you. I'm not sure what more I can do other than literally handing them to you on a plate.

[Hinty]

Not sure I like the idea of Humans starting in Skaljard getting the Skaljard/frost songs for racials.

The vast majority of characters that start on Skaljard are freshly arrived on the island, so why would they suddenly innately know the songs? I would think it far more preferable to have them start with the normal human songs, and simply have the Skal songs found on the island somewhere.

Also, out of curiosity, if you leave Skaljard, then take Bard on mainland Arelith, which racial would you get? Would chars that start in Cordor be able to travel to Skal, and take bard to get the Skal racials?

[AstralUniverse]

stuff

Since when were mechanics required for people to roleplay something? All these things you're hoping to happen were possible before this big song update too, for years. The only difference now is that the people who don't feel like roleplaying it (probably the majority of the playerbase, which is absolutely fine, by the way) still have to go through all these areas to get their class abilities (which, I will say again, other classes don't).

In fact, if anything, all this does is limit people's roleplay in the sense that they're somewhat "forced" into roleplaying that their characters learn their songs from going through these particular areas, the same way every other bard on Arelith will do from now on (ignoring the "teaching" aspect for a moment here). Wouldn't it be much cooler if we allowed players themselves to come up with their own, individual stories behind the songs that they know/have written? It is that freedom that attacts so many players to this server after all.

I dont necessarily disagree with you but cant you kind of claim the same about ranger studied enemies being locked behind heavy grinding? Lets say I like to RP in cities, I like to pvp as well, but I really cant stand grinding, why is my core class ability locked behind grinding? Is it not the same?

[the grim yeeter]

You mean like Rangers and studied enemies? Is the fact that you have to do something in game related to your class abilities so bad?

I dont necessarily disagree with you but cant you kind of claim the same about ranger studied enemies being locked behind heavy grinding? Lets say I like to RP in cities, I like to pvp as well, but I really cant stand grinding, why is my core class ability locked behind grinding? Is it not the same?

This thread isn't about ranger's studied enemies, though. But yes, it's similar on a level (but also different in a number of ways, which really isn't worth discussing here, in my opinion).

Is the fact that you have to do something in game related to your class abilities so bad?

My point is that it doesn't add any roleplay.

I'm not sure what more I can do other than literally handing them to you on a plate.

Why not just do this?

[Hinty]

Agreed.

Please don’t mistake me; I think the new songs are neat and I’m looking forward to them. However, my bard PC is one whose RP has led her towards being a city dweller - a bureaucrat who doesn’t get out much. And I’m okay with that, because it’s wonderful RP! Am I penalized for that RP choice because now I either have to 1) wait for other PCs to go forth and adventure, or 2) abandon my own RP for a while so I can go forth and adventure, simply so I can have access to songs that my PC - a bard of Oghma, the patron of bards - could, should be able to learn in other ways?

Oghma is all about uncovering hidden lore, and facilitating the spread of knowledge. You've been gifted a wonderful opportunity to RP the search for knowledge, either by seeking it yourself, or sponsoring adventurers to go forth and search for you, and ensuring its spread by gifting the songs to other newer bards.


Oghma does not just dump knowledge into the minds of his followers, I do not get why you think you should just know them all inherently.

[the grim yeeter]

Oghma does not just dump knowledge into the minds of his followers, I do not get why you think you should just know them all inherently.

They don't. They just want to come up with their own way of creating a story behind how their character has learnt these songs, instead of being forced down a certain alley because of a mechanic.

[Hinty]

Is it confirmed for the racial songs that these can only be learned by teaching? Or are there ways to learn them through "exploration"?

- Song teaching is now implemented, use -song teach <ID> to do so for all nearby bards. Costs 1000 Adventure XP. Any song can be taught, whether racial or discovered in the world.

[Quidix]

My guess would be to go and talk to every NPC in the module, starting from Cordor, moving to other towns, taverns and so-on.

That's what I'll be doing in the Underdark; just talk with every single NPC I can access without murder.

So, they're not buried inside any NPC conversations. The songs are found just by walking around the right areas. These areas are typically (but not always) dungeons that take a little effort to get to.

I'm not against the general mechanic of learning from each other, but that Healing Harmony, one of the best levelling songs is so gated and difficult to get for UD monsters.

It's not. It will be easily discoverable in the Underdark in a low level area.

Most songs you will just stumble upon while you level up or walk around cities. The rest will be very easy to pick up from other bards.

I would hope this will lead to people making new friends and RP buddies, but I'm sure there will be some "login ur bard alt plz" too. People doing the latter are cheating themselves out of some potential RP imo, but that's their prerogative.

That sounds quite nice - I'm glad it's not a game of "talk to every NPC in the module and look for hidden things without any hints", which I would not have enjoyed.

[Kessarin]

Oghma does not just dump knowledge into the minds of his followers, I do not get why you think you should just know them all inherently.

They don't. They just want to come up with their own way of creating a story behind how their character has learnt these songs, instead of being forced down a certain alley because of a mechanic.

Hinty: I'm looking through my post to see where I said or even implied anything about knowing the songs all inherently, especially when I quoted and agreed with someone else's post that suggested the songs be learned through level progression.

Grim has the right of it; thank you. My Oghman bard could have learned these songs from a songbook that she found in the backroom of a library she has visited. I believe that would satisfy the "uncovering hidden lore" part of Oghma's dogma without needing to traipse through a dungeon in the Underdark.

[Xerah]

Grim has the right of it; thank you. My Oghman bard could have learned these songs from a songbook that she found in the backroom of a library she has visited. I believe that would satisfy the "uncovering hidden lore" part of Oghma's dogma without needing to traipse through a dungeon in the Underdark.

She could have, but instead, you need to learn them from another character who did go into the Underdark instead if you're not willing to go there yourself. These are not fundamentally the same thing as wizard spells since you basically still have exactly what you had before (minus a few things); the wizard can't function without spells, not the same as these bard songs.

[Ork]

I genuinely love song procuration. I think that has a lot of room for roleplay...until it turns into language lessons.

[Itikar]

I come from a game where feats, skills and most importantly spells had to be found in a vast world, exploring, and it was not even that easy to find them. Overall, within limits, this system is particularly rewarding for explorer and socializer types alike.

It is possible that a few songs may need adjustments to the easiness of their availability, but I don't think this can be commented upon at this time, quite frankly.

I am quite pleased with having to look around for them, or link up with other characters.

[mjones3]

... My Oghman bard could have learned these songs from a songbook that she found in the backroom of a library she has visited. I believe that would satisfy the "uncovering hidden lore" part of Oghma's dogma without needing to traipse through a dungeon in the Underdark.

Where is the book that you learn the song coming from if not from another character who did the exploration themselves and wrote it? That could easily be a bards/lore-masters RP goal to learn every song and write them down and they teach the song to others via that method.

[Preytoria]

Honestly I was hoping learning a song from a fellow bard would take some time. Maybe not as much as a language but you get the idea.