Feedback: Bard PGCC Changes

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The Hazards of Love
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Re: Feedback: Bard PGCC Changes

Post by The Hazards of Love » Mon Jan 04, 2021 11:17 pm

The "Hunter" songs that elf gets are truly garbage, perhaps they could make animals (ESF: magical beasts) non-hostile instead? Thanks for the consideration.

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Red Ropes
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Re: Feedback: Bard PGCC Changes

Post by Red Ropes » Mon Jan 04, 2021 11:23 pm

I think that'd be kind of more thematic for elves who live at one with the animals. Rather than protecting you from them it seems like it'd be more thematic to make you "safe" around animals as a ranger or druid are, and maybe even get you animal henchmen.
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Dreams
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Re: Feedback: Bard PGCC Changes

Post by Dreams » Tue Jan 05, 2021 3:55 am

It would be VERY thematic and cool to become a pied piper, gaining potentially an Animal Empathy vs animals that are listening to the song at ESF Perform.

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Dreams
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Re: Feedback: Bard PGCC Changes

Post by Dreams » Tue Jan 05, 2021 3:58 am

Preytoria wrote:
Mon Jan 04, 2021 7:11 pm
Honestly I was hoping learning a song from a fellow bard would take some time. Maybe not as much as a language but you get the idea.
I guess it's going to be up to the bard teaching to consider if a song has been taught or not, before they use the command. For example, if my bard was going through the roleplay of teaching a song, I might actually help another bard learn or develop lyrics to a new song. Then use the command after. Mechanically they get the song in an instant, but the RP around it can still be fun.

A MAN DRUNK ON POWER
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Re: Feedback: Bard PGCC Changes

Post by A MAN DRUNK ON POWER » Tue Jan 05, 2021 8:45 am

I have no intention of requiring days or weeks of effort to give people my character would ICly be willing to help, access to their class' actual full abilities. A 30 minute or hour session and I'll teach you some songs, if you're someone my character ICly would be willing to teach magical songs to. Languages are fun little things; by comparison, this is a core class ability meant to flesh out a nerfed bard song. Personally I'm not gonna make it more painful for people than it has to be (outside of "must be someone my char would be willing to teach in the first place).
Last edited by A MAN DRUNK ON POWER on Tue Jan 05, 2021 8:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Dracorid3r
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Re: Feedback: Bard PGCC Changes

Post by Dracorid3r » Tue Jan 05, 2021 4:40 pm

mjones3 wrote:
Mon Jan 04, 2021 5:59 pm
Kessarin wrote:
Mon Jan 04, 2021 5:00 pm
... My Oghman bard could have learned these songs from a songbook that she found in the backroom of a library she has visited. I believe that would satisfy the "uncovering hidden lore" part of Oghma's dogma without needing to traipse through a dungeon in the Underdark.
Where is the book that you learn the song coming from if not from another character who did the exploration themselves and wrote it? That could easily be a bards/lore-masters RP goal to learn every song and write them down and they teach the song to others via that method.

My new bard is basically this. Lol

I’m fully of the mind that I won’t be 100% mechanically amazing right out of the gate. But I and subsequently my character, want to take it slow, explore, learn all the songs, even if it means disguising and making friends with other bards, to get the songs.

And then, I get to sit down and teach others... or show them where to get it themselves.

My only wish is more songs, and being able to write them down to sell. Or write then down anyway.
It also kinda gives me an avenue if I’m bored, to write a quick lyrics each of the songs, but i’m sure others might beat me to it.

Itikar
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Re: Feedback: Bard PGCC Changes

Post by Itikar » Wed Jan 06, 2021 5:07 pm

A small feedback on the bardsong capped message.

Firstly, it has a small typo: "Your song is capped at level Xof potential level Y" → there should be a space between X (i.e. the level) and of.

Secondly, the message appears twice, preceded by a spammy sequence of numbers from 1 to the current bard level.

I think that a less spammy message, i.e. just the warning and once, and no series of numbers, would be better for the chat readability.

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DangerDolphin
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Re: Feedback: Bard PGCC Changes

Post by DangerDolphin » Wed Jan 06, 2021 5:20 pm

Itikar wrote:
Wed Jan 06, 2021 5:07 pm
A small feedback on the bardsong capped message.

Firstly, it has a small typo: "Your song is capped at level Xof potential level Y" → there should be a space between X (i.e. the level) and of.

Secondly, the message appears twice, preceded by a spammy sequence of numbers from 1 to the current bard level.

I think that a less spammy message, i.e. just the warning and once, and no series of numbers, would be better for the chat readability.
The double message is because it works it out for your baseline song and the special song you are using on top of that as well. I agree it's a lot of information. I can potentially block one of them from reporting.

I'm not sure what you mean by the spammy sequence of numbers, I assume you mean it's just too verbose in explaining the problem right now?

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Rigela
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Re: Feedback: Bard PGCC Changes

Post by Rigela » Wed Jan 06, 2021 5:36 pm

Curse song seems to be triggering it's damage twice, at least on PGCC, for any that deal damage.

Also noticed that if you mix Lore master with Bard to get the clone with the illusion secret the clone will spam whatever song you had marked when in combat, giving you it's full effects. Couldn't find a way to make it sing the song normally and it seemed to do it randomly after charging into the thick of things. It never did curse song though, just the standard bard song.
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Itikar
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Re: Feedback: Bard PGCC Changes

Post by Itikar » Wed Jan 06, 2021 5:44 pm

DangerDolphin wrote:
Wed Jan 06, 2021 5:20 pm
I'm not sure what you mean by the spammy sequence of numbers, I assume you mean it's just too verbose in explaining the problem right now?
Sorry, I mean this: https://imgur.com/a/3jZUE1F

As you see the message appears twice, prceded twice by a very long sequence of numbers that are not really useful for the player.

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DangerDolphin
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Re: Feedback: Bard PGCC Changes

Post by DangerDolphin » Wed Jan 06, 2021 5:51 pm

Itikar wrote:
Wed Jan 06, 2021 5:44 pm
DangerDolphin wrote:
Wed Jan 06, 2021 5:20 pm
I'm not sure what you mean by the spammy sequence of numbers, I assume you mean it's just too verbose in explaining the problem right now?
Sorry, I mean this: https://imgur.com/a/3jZUE1F

As you see the message appears twice, prceded twice by a very long sequence of numbers that are not really useful for the player.
Ah, they're not meant to be there! They'll be gone next update.

Haroshia
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Re: Feedback: Bard PGCC Changes

Post by Haroshia » Thu Jan 07, 2021 2:46 pm

Posting here to make sure it's seen.

I think a helpful, fun, and thematic suggestion to helping people find locations would be a sort of minstrel NPC in taverns across the lands who gives some kind of hint to where to find certain songs and curses. Like you can walk up and be like.

"That song you're playing. I've never heard it. What inspired you to write it?"
"Oh I accompanied an adventurer through the ruins of Old Stonehold, and what I found within moved me to song!"

Something like that. Obviously I'm not a great dialog writer. This way you still keep the fun FOIG discovery aspect and you don't have pressure to be explicit in your patch postings about what songs are added for discovery.
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Dubhwulfe
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Re: Feedback: Bard PGCC Changes

Post by Dubhwulfe » Thu Jan 07, 2021 2:59 pm

Haroshia wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 2:46 pm
Posting here to make sure it's seen.

I think a helpful, fun, and thematic suggestion to helping people find locations would be a sort of minstrel NPC in taverns across the lands who gives some kind of hint to where to find certain songs and curses. Like you can walk up and be like.

"That song you're playing. I've never heard it. What inspired you to write it?"
"Oh I accompanied an adventurer through the ruins of Old Stonehold, and what I found within moved me to song!"

Something like that. Obviously I'm not a great dialog writer. This way you still keep the fun FOIG discovery aspect and you don't have pressure to be explicit in your patch postings about what songs are added for discovery.
This is really neat, but at the same time I'd love to see it less "I found it here!" and more of a riddle or clue that points you in the general direction. Still, super cool idea.

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Dreams
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Re: Feedback: Bard PGCC Changes

Post by Dreams » Thu Jan 07, 2021 3:14 pm

Great ideas! Seeing bits and pieces of lore pop out in the form of new books randomly generated on bookshelves that held clues about songs could be cool too.

Wethrinea
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Re: Feedback: Bard PGCC Changes

Post by Wethrinea » Thu Jan 07, 2021 5:55 pm

Question though: My ranger dipped 3 levels of bard with 10 ranks of perform for level 3 song. With the change he can not see -songs, even if he meets level requirements. Does he need to take bard levels to learn songs, such as Falater's fiddle?
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Mattamue
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Re: Feedback: Bard PGCC Changes

Post by Mattamue » Thu Jan 07, 2021 7:09 pm

Need 5 levels in bard for access to the special songs. You'll still be able to sing the baseline song at level 3.

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Itikar
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Re: Feedback: Bard PGCC Changes

Post by Itikar » Sun Jan 17, 2021 4:37 pm

I was experimenting with dirge of the dead in the past days, but I must confess the fact that the damage targets only undead and is equivalent to that of Falataer's Flute makes it not as appealing as a tool, unless one is truly fighting just undead.

And even then, the only real benefits one gets is a sizable penalty to their damage, and an extra -1 to their saves. But at the the cost of renouncing to an extra -1 to the ac of the undead and any other enemies.

And the fact that it is a curse song, and not a regular song that helps the party continuosly against undead, does not help matters either.

There is also the vulnerability to fire, of course, but it is not really impactful.

I would really consider at the very least looking at its damage, as at this point in most scenarios just using Falataer's Flute, even against undead, seems relatively optimal, whereas in my humble opinion, when facing undead Dirge of the Dead should give a more significant advantages against such enemy type.

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Dreams
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Re: Feedback: Bard PGCC Changes

Post by Dreams » Mon Jan 18, 2021 3:34 pm

The problem of curse song not hitting all enemies in the area likely makes this worse. For Dirge of the Dead I’m finding other enemies won’t be hit by the base song, and some undead won’t be hit at all.

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