[Loremaster] 5 Class change Feedback

[Mythic]

Loremasters, Please give feedback here about how the changes relate to your builds.


Personally I'm glad as it opens up a large amount of build-options that were otherwise not an option for taking 10 LM levels

And it got rid of the spell-requirements for spell secrets, Mundane Loremasters are now on the table

[Nitro]

Fantastic. For caster classes you can now actually afford to go LM since you'll only give up 3 caster levels, not 10 and you can grab the epic spells from the focuses that you didn't already specialize in. The requirement for Skill Focus Lore hurts a little though, it's pretty much a useless feat in every sense of the word, but it's still better for most classes who might want to take loremaster since a 5 level dump hurts you a lot less than a 10 level dump did.

[Quidix]

Firstly, good to see some attention on LM, and appreciate the work as it can open up what was previously a close-to-pure-RP class. I especially like that it now grants some CL.

Secondly, I find it sad that the mechanical benefits had to come at the cost of RP cookies that a level 10 LM could get. I think the distinction between lesser and greater secrets is unnecessary. So what if someone wants all the RP-cookies? It does not harm balance in any way, and one is giving up mechanically useful secrets (like AC, AB, HP and saves).

Finally, has any further consideration been given to opening LM to commoners? It would be great to see more variety of commoners than pure skill monkeys. Force commoners to choose LM or specialist (but not both) and you have a real trade-off between [1] survivable and skill monkey vs [2] RP-cookies and better scrolls (but no tumble and disc and loss of 3 ESFs).

[SkipiusEsq]

I am extremely disappointed in this change. I appreciate that the class can now be used as a dip to help combat classes, but it is significantly weaker for using it to be an actual loremaster. I play Garmic Grumblemantle, a scholar and linguist, who was mechanically weak but for the RP I wanted to run pretty good. I took the various spell secrets at every opportunity to allow him to have some RP nuances that he now loses. A character that was build to be a scholar will now be forced to take two secrets that have absolutely no relevant to being an actual loremaster. He is also a linguist so having tutor granted for free at 10 was a HUGE perk. Now I not only lose 2 spell secrets, but must lose another 1 in order to keep tutor.

I appreciate that now the class can be used by more builds to make them even stronger, but the class in general has been weakened for what it actually is.

Please note that this comment is not an attack on the developers or the staff. I appreciate everything they do for the server and they are trying to make changes for the good of the community. It is just that this change completely destroys my character and the RP he has built.

[SkipiusEsq]

Firstly, good to see some attention on LM, and appreciate the work as it can open up what was previously a close-to-pure-RP class. I
Secondly, I find it sad that the mechanical benefits had to come at the cost of RP cookies that a level 10 LM could get. I think the distinction between lesser and greater secrets is unnecessary. So what if someone wants all the RP-cookies? It does not harm balance in any way, and one is giving up mechanically useful secrets (like AC, AB, HP and saves).

100% this. If all of the secrets were available for every level, then the hit to the RP loremaster builds would not be as significant (aside from having to take Tutor as one of the secrets) and still benefit the builds that want the dip.

[Nitro]

100% this. If all of the secrets were available for every level, then the hit to the RP loremaster builds would not be as significant (aside from having to take Tutor as one of the secrets) and still benefit the builds that want the dip.

Then there wouldn't be any reason to take any other secrets than the spell focus ones. Let's face it, +2 to one save or +1ab are extremely boring choices which most of the time you could have gotten an equal or better alternative by not taking loremaster. Getting ESF bonus spells on the other hand is not only extremely powerful but also very fun and useful.

Before, any class that could get the ESF secrets would, because why wouldn't you, and the ones that couldn't had very little reason to dump loremaster unless they were the designated language jockey for whatever group they were in.

This change means that you don't have to be extremely mechanically weak to be a loremaster, something which I am very grateful for.

EDIT: LM's do seem tailor made to fit commoners, giving a lot of cookies without adding any appreciable level of power to commoners. The crafting/gathering and exploration secrets, and language teaching in particular.

[SkipiusEsq]

Then there wouldn't be any reason to take any other secrets than the spell focus ones. Let's face it, +2 to one save or +1ab are extremely boring choices which most of the time you could have gotten an equal or better alternative by not taking loremaster.

First, I disagree that getting +1AB is a boring choice, but if you are correct, why have them? And with the other options anyway, you wouldn't need to take either of these even with the new changes. All you are doing is saying to a loremaster who is built for RP is that they have to take some wasted secrets if you want to be, well, a loremaster.

Getting ESF bonus spells on the other hand is not only extremely powerful but also very fun and useful.

But it comes at a cost. Before you had to have the Greater Spell Focus. And you also sacrificed CL to take Loremaster instead of the caster level and choosing ESF. Loremaster gives you the ability to use some of the RP benefits of ESF only as far as I understood it. If I am wrong and you also get the bonus to DC and the like, I would say to get rid of that.

This change means that you don't have to be extremely mechanically weak to be a loremaster, something which I am very grateful for.

I agree that you no longer need to make a sacrifice to be a loremaster to buff a class that is not really a loremaster. For example, a fighter can now take a 3 level dip to get +1 AB and +1 AC, as well as use Barkskin wands for +5 AC and a 30% chance that any scroll (raise dead for example) will not be used up when you cast from it. So you have a class that is called Loremaster but is really acting like a specialization class. And if you take it in the epics, you don't even take an AB hit. Oh, and you get access to UMD, so why the heck NOT take it? The argument that a fighter will choose to take the secret so they can scry over the extra AC or AB is, I'm sorry, incorrect.

And I have no problem with the above, BTW. I have no issue with letting people build to make themselves mechanically stronger. My only issue is that now the only build that suffers from the change is someone that actually wants to use the mechanical class of loremaster to play a roleplay loremaster.

[AnselHoenheim]

Those who have invested heavily in LM levels have, at one point or the other, ignored the saves, or the rest of lesser secrets, and focused more in the ESF flavour - Artisan - or Tutor that level 10 LM offered, now, removing the option of having Tutor for free, and locking those great secrets to only 2, it has removed the concept of those who have invested heavily in LM as now they have to drop, at least in my case, from the 4 greater secrets, I have to select two, one being mandatory Tutor

Also, yes, it's great the +2 CL for LM, and I was one of the first that was vouching 10 levels of LM were too much and usually cripples builds that might get benefit from the secrets, but sacrifying that for actual builds, and punishing them that way, it's not a great experience, at least for my case, and even with a relevel in mind, I need to make gymnastics to try to build up again a concept that was good enough.

For me? Personally, it's a huge nerf for Loremaster

[Zavandar]

great changes, opens up the class for many more builds now

[Party in the forest at midnight]

Will loremater caster levels count towards craft wand? If not, could it be considered?


Edit for clarity:
The number of charges a wand gets is dependent on the caster level of a caster, it rolls a 1d20 and adds caster level to it and that's how many charges the wands gets.
Can the caster levels from loremaster add to the total number of caster levels for craft wand? So if I do 25 wizard and 5 loremaster, it will add 27 charges to wands?

[AstralUniverse]

Does this mean a loremaster gets 5 free languages by lvl 5?

[TooManyPotatoes]

Could tutor be made free or selectable as a lesser secret? I think that would help a lot of these formerly 10 level loremasters out while not effecting balance.

[Emaster]

I RP as a 20 / 10 Bard / LM, full support build.

The new changes really took all the goodies it had. I had 3 epic spells (Conjuration, Transmutation, Illusion).

With the new changes, now I could only take 2 epic spells, if I didn't want to get tutor feat, which was a feat I liked as I was teaching languages.

In one side, the new changes are nice, I tried to fit LM bonuses in other builds and always failed, with the new changes, I could see getting some different builds.

In the other side, this change gives me really a bad feeling.. the toon I used to play for months now is gone, I just spent time and gold to regear considering the toon had just suffered a big changes and now I have to re do everything again, if at least a warning would have been given...
There is no way I could get what I had taking 5 levels as a bard or in any other combo..

Pretty sure any player who didn't play a LM will love the changes, and everyone who was playing one will have bad feelings.

Any chances to allow current LM to re pick their race/ gifts / level 1?

Now I don't need to take Int gift to qualify , or play gnome to squeeze in the feat list a third Greater spell focus.

[Rigela]

One question on the change.

At lvl 10, Loremaster's were previously able to choose a rare unlearnable language but no longer can at level 5 that I can see. Is this intentional or was it removed in the past and I missed that update?

[garrbear758]

One question on the change.

At lvl 10, Loremaster's were previously able to choose a rare unlearnable language but no longer can at level 5 that I can see. Is this intentional or was it removed in the past and I missed that update?

That was an oversight. Ill submit a fix for it as soon as I have a chance.

[Rigela]

One question on the change.

At lvl 10, Loremaster's were previously able to choose a rare unlearnable language but no longer can at level 5 that I can see. Is this intentional or was it removed in the past and I missed that update?

That was an oversight. Ill submit a fix for it as soon as I have a chance.

Good to know! Thank you.

[garrbear758]

I'm just going to post two quotes here from our staff discussions because they sum up my feelings on it better than I could.

"I also lean very strongly on the RP side, but the entire point of Garr's change was to make the class accommodate people who don't, too. Loremaster as a specialized PRC- one that lets an otherwise viable character inject a few species of variety and unique talent into their character archetype- is a much more interesting and useful sort of PRC than "every 10 Loremaster is a master linguist, instructor, and has 4-5 epic spell foci." The original concept of the LM "rp build" was an awful thing to have around, because it made Loremasters, all of them, into effective cookie cutter characters."

"Language tutor is pretty powerful. character-definingly powerful, tbh. (At least if you buy into the language system, not if you're some mad linguo-anarchist not [other developer] here) I don't have a shred of doubt about it being a greater secret tbh"

[Baron Saturday]

Another thing I noted is that it doesn't count towards your dweomercraft tier for enchanting. At least in the case of a bard 25/5. I don't know if a secret so it does count would be worthwhile on the same level as the bard/ranger etc level or full, or just giving it to them anyway.

Quoting Rigela's edit for emphasis, as I think having loremaster benefit dweomercrafting in some way jives very well with the class concept.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

Overall, the five levels and the lack of gsf are a huge bonus to the class. Some things that could still be fixed though-

Artisan is still blah. Class specific recipes are very limited compared to racial ones, and boosts to daily crafting points no longer matter as much as they once did since it started refreshing every tick. Generally now you craft as you go when you are logged on, meaning its only a bonus that one time when you first log in for the day. I get not wanting all the racial recipes available, but perhaps adding learnable crafting instead of additional points is the way to go. For example, a regular character without the crafting gift gets 60 total points to a lot, taking artisan adds +10 similar to how the gift does.

Exploration is still a trap. Its great early on, but eventually the adventure xp will stack to useless levels, which is by far the biggest bonus of the lot. Perhaps expanding both the actual xp to 100% and doubling the gold would make it compelling, but even that's not a guarantee. The ranger bonus is nice here though.

There are easy additions left on the table. Secrets that boost skills, or allow lore master levels to count toward rogue levels when it comes to trinkets, adding sneak attack, and probably a few more I am leaving off because this is just off the top of my head.

Other then those minor things, I am very happy with the changes as someone who plays a loremaster currently. I can completely ditch the pointless bard levels, and slot in something that makes more sense for the character. Wizards can now trade disc for a few extra epic abilities at the cost of taking abj defense in the early levels. They will have to be brave to ditch that disc, but yeah...good stuff.

[andthenthatwasthat]

I do not play a LM at the moment, but a concept I had in mind and wished to RP after my current character is out of the window. It was supposed to be an art professor type Bard LM with 10 levels of LM and 4 now greater secrets. I currently do not see myself playing an LM as I do not tend to see a path in which such a dip makes sense. If i do return to the concept, right now it will likely be a Wizard RP'ing a loremaster without LM levels. However, with these changes, I do see value for Indiana Jones type melee characters that focus more on killing things.

[SkipiusEsq]

On relevel, a few more things I've noticed on how this change hurts existing LMs (a class, mind you, that is rather difficult to level, so getting punished after that amount of leveling is frustrating):

* Languages are lost and now some cannot be reselected: Druidic, Roushom to name two - I understand Druidic is not supposed to be learned now but my character did. Now he RPs as being a linguist who suddenly forget an entire language. Roushom may be a bug that I think might be getting fixed.

* Losing ESFs - my character had, and used in RP, multiple ESF secrets. Now he has just forgotten how to make illusion copies of himself when giving language lessons. In total, you lose 3 ESF if you still want Tutor. That is not just a minor hit to a character.

* Losing Artisan - since Artisan, ESF, and Tutor are now all only selectable at levels 4 and 5, you have to pick between them. Given the changes already, the one that I have to let go is Artisan. But what that means is the points put into carpentry so I could make the bard instruments is now wasted. But, alas, stuck with them.

As noted above, it is extremely frustrating to have a character that I've invested a good bit of RP into and lots of time leveling a very hard class to level become extremely nerfed on the altar of - We want other people to take this class to make them mechanically better.

[Wrips]

I would honestly give the Secret of Exploration for free at Loremaster 3. The sources of xp/gold from it is finite and the quantities, more than acceptable.

[garrbear758]

On relevel, a few more things I've noticed on how this change hurts existing LMs (a class, mind you, that is rather difficult to level, so getting punished after that amount of leveling is frustrating):

* Languages are lost and now some cannot be reselected: Druidic, Roushom to name two - I understand Druidic is not supposed to be learned now but my character did. Now he RPs as being a linguist who suddenly forget an entire language. Roushom may be a bug that I think might be getting fixed.

* Losing ESFs - my character had, and used in RP, multiple ESF secrets. Now he has just forgotten how to make illusion copies of himself when giving language lessons. In total, you lose 3 ESF if you still want Tutor. That is not just a minor hit to a character.

* Losing Artisan - since Artisan, ESF, and Tutor are now all only selectable at levels 4 and 5, you have to pick between them. Given the changes already, the one that I have to let go is Artisan. But what that means is the points put into carpentry so I could make the bard instruments is now wasted. But, alas, stuck with them.

As noted above, it is extremely frustrating to have a character that I've invested a good bit of RP into and lots of time leveling a very hard class to level become extremely nerfed on the altar of - We want other people to take this class to make them mechanically better.

Roushoum is a bug.

Druidic should never ever ever be selectable by anyone who is not a druid. Similarly to how paladins lose their abilities if they stray from their alignment, druids are never allowed to teach anyone who is not a druid their language.

[Jack Oat]

LM Change is among my Top 10 Favorite Class Changes Ever On Arelith.

12/10 would recommend

[mjones3]

I would honestly give the Secret of Exploration for free at Loremaster 3. The sources of xp/gold from it is finite and the quantities, more than acceptable.

Honestly I think tacking on something like the ranger map showing, the ranger speed bonus, or the ability to use horses without 6pts in ride would make it less of a trap. Still not good but you get something that keeps working even after you've explored.