[Loremaster] 5 Class change Feedback

[garrbear758]

I understand a lot of the people playing current loremasters are upset, and its not wrong to feel that way. With that said, this change was as necessary for that part of the class as the monk nerf of last summer. This is a roleplay server, and we take that into consideration when we balance things. Something being entirely too strong for roleplay is the same as something being too strong for rollplay. Both need to be balanced with regards to other choices, and one class should never give you everything for either. Loremaster 10 was terrible mechanically, and I've addressed that, but it also gave you everything in regards to rp cookies and no one class should do that.

[Tipp]

I have some mechanic questions. It seems you don’t have to take the greater spell focus now for the greater secrets. Is this correct? If it is dose that include the Golem secret? Can the lore Master now craft Golems without the associated greater spell focus? As to the level requirements I for one appreciate the clarification of the 15 lev requirement to use. I built a loremaster and was able to choose the teleport and yoink secrets at 8 lev only to find they we’re unusable due to the lev 21 restrictions.

[garrbear758]

I have some mechanic questions. It seems you don’t have to take the greater spell focus now for the greater secrets. Is this correct? If it is dose that include the Golem secret? Can the lore Master now craft Golems without the associated greater spell focus? As to the level requirements I for one appreciate the clarification of the 15 lev requirement to use. I built a loremaster and was able to choose the teleport and yoink secrets at 8 lev only to find they we’re unusable due to the lev 21 restrictions.

Golem is a seperate lesser secret

[Kalgoon]

It's great that you decided to open up Loremaster to more people, so they can min-max themselves. Yes, I'm salty right now.

As a current Loremaster, I'm losing 10 Lore, which I get 3 back from a forced feat tax, which means that I'm also losing a feat I already have and thus have to sacrifice one of my GSF's as a result.

I'm also losing 10 skill points. Just gone. Bye bye.

Then I have to sacrifice three Secret Knowledges from among Teleportation, Summoning, Illusion, and Artisan just so I can keep Tutor and only one of those Secrets.

Now I get to replace two of the RP cookies I had with choices I wouldn't have picked. What could possibly replace illusory clones? Hey, maybe +1 AB on a non-combatant.

This change is obviously absolute hell for me and has thrown everything into mechanical upheaval, but I hope some people get some benefit from it, because I'm not.

[SkipiusEsq]

With that said, this change was as necessary for that part of the class as the monk nerf of last summer. ... something being entirely too strong for roleplay is the same as something being too strong for rollplay.

Respectfully, this is a false comparison. While the server is RP, it is an exaggeration to suggest that a class that is mechanically superior (i.e., rollplay) is anywhere near the same thing as a class that has a few RP cookies. The fact that a level 10 loremaster can create a clone of himself to RP being a language tutor is nothing like being able to run into a group of PCs and annihilate the entire group.

What this change does is allows a dip for some buffs at very little cost. Essentially, it can now be used by more builds to add power (also known as powerbuilds). Now a wizard can give up 5 levels (which equal one class feat and 3 CL) to grab some of those RP cookies that they otherwise wouldn't have been able to get. They will still be able to get four or five ESF cookies, only now it costs them less pre-epic feats, costs less in terms of CL, and nets them a few free languages along the way.

For a roleplay server, this change 100% places rollplay over roleplay - there is no denying that. The change makes it easier to take a dip in loremaster without suffering the cost to get those roleplay cookies. In fact, the only character that suffers as a result of the change is a roleplay loremaster.

And the change comes into play six months after it was introduced. I started a loremaster shortly after it was introduced. Loremaster are very difficult to grind out levels because it is mechanically weak. So six months of RP and grinding (still hadn't hit level 30) effectively wiped clean because the class wasn't being used enough in various builds for a quick buff.

[SkipiusEsq]

As a current Loremaster, I'm losing 10 Lore, which I get 3 back from a forced feat tax, which means that I'm also losing a feat I already have and thus have to sacrifice one of my GSF's as a result.

I'm also losing 10 skill points. Just gone. Bye bye.

Then I have to sacrifice three Secret Knowledges from among Teleportation, Summoning, Illusion, and Artisan just so I can keep Tutor and only one of those Secrets.

Now I get to replace two of the RP cookies I had with choices I wouldn't have picked. What could possibly replace illusory clones? Hey, maybe +1 AB on a non-combatant.

Exactly this.

You lose 1 pre-epic feat (for Skill Focus: Lore) / 3 Secrets / 10 skill points all so melees can now use this as a dip to get +1 AB / +2 AC (one from secret and one from buffed Barkskin wands)

[Good Character]

Admittedly this a fantastically strong buff to melee/ranged builds that can spare a feat or already were based on the absence of bonus feats.

As mentioned, cheap dip for UMD, spellcraft, lore bump, chunky skillpoints, and fantastic RP-related bonuses. I love this change, but I admittedly on the fence of it. It almost feels too good not to add onto the genre of builds I mentioned above.

[Nitro]

For a roleplay server, this change 100% places rollplay over roleplay - there is no denying that. The change makes it easier to take a dip in loremaster without suffering the cost to get those roleplay cookies. In fact, the only character that suffers as a result of the change is a roleplay loremaster.

I'm just gonna cut in and say that this is a false dichotomy. There is nothing that changes how you may or may not want to roleplay a loremaster. There is no difference between a rollplay and a roleplay build. The pursuit of balance is a necessary one and has no bearing on anyone's roleplay, nor does anyone's choice to have a stronger or weaker build make it any more or less of a "roleplay" build. There is no inherent value in gimping oneself for the sake of some perceived roleplaying strength. Choosing to go down 10 LM was no more or less of an RP choice than taking 7WM levels to crit harder with a scythe. And no one deserves special consideration for having their build in particular changed in such a way that makes it different from what they have planned. When you get down to it, the LM change is no different from a monk change after all, they were only made for the opposite reasons.

[Kuma]

I don't have a Loremaster, but now I might actually play one. So, I like how it looks.

edit: old loremaster incentivised stormwind fallacy adherents, this is a healthy change

[Ork]

Welcome to your first taste of arelith rebalance. Loremaster joins monk, barbarian, kensai, cleric, melee PM, UMD, wizard- I could go on.

But, unironically this is a buff.

[AstralUniverse]

This might come off as a really unpopular opinion so I'm ready with improved expertise on.

Why does a character pick a 5 lvl class and speaks FIVE languages out of the blue? This is nuts and I think it's way too much.

[Good Character]

Iffy on taking that opinion. Ironically if it weren't for tutor, I would say it is ridiculous. However, someone needs access to the languages to be taught. There are definitely periods where the server is starved of people that teach specific inherent languages like Infernal/Abyssal, Celestial, Jotun, etc.

I say barring 2 or 3 languages behind tutor would be a good idea.

[Gouge Away]

I do think LM should get access to a special language or too but agree 5 is a bit much.

I tend to think languages become much less useful the more that people who shouldn't speak them, do. For a variety of reasons-- too many foreign speakers means languages stop being semi-secure ways to have private conversations (which also means they become useless for eavesdropping), it means it's no longer impressive to members of a race if someone unexpected speaks their tongue (one human speaking dwarven after effort is a way to bond, every other human doesn't impress anyone.) If everyone knows undercommon it's hardly going to be a way to infiltrate Anundor anymore. Etc etc, at some point language just becomes flavor and no longer a useful tool at all.

[Nekonecro]

Hi, just wanting to add that I like the change.
Thank you dev team!

[Saleph]

First off, I think that the 5 change is great. A little thought of mine tho.
So the loremaster Class gives +CL on lvls 1 and 5. I think it would be nice if those lvls would also give a 1lvl Bonus for bardsong.
It would put Barb/Lore at the same power as Wiz/Lore.

[andthenthatwasthat]

Wizards can now trade disc for a few extra epic abilities at the cost of taking abj defense in the early levels. They will have to be brave to ditch that disc, but yeah...good stuff.

I see it now, too. There is a new cookie cutter 26/4 Wizard that can now get a perk of UMD and teleport while gaining a metamegaic feat at the expense of Disc they would get with Ranger.

From this day forth they shall be called Nature Wizard and Lore Wizard builds.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

Regular teleport needs to come back to the transmutation secret. I would even be willing to swap the portal create for it, it's really that much better then the later.

[garrbear758]

Regular teleport needs to come back to the transmutation secret. I would even be willing to swap the portal create for it, it's really that much better then the later.

Regular teleport was never part of it.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

Regular teleport needs to come back to the transmutation secret. I would even be willing to swap the portal create for it, it's really that much better then the later.

Regular teleport was never part of it.

Well, it was, because you had to take gsf trans. I would have figured that because the change is now "you don't need caster levels" it would have included this. Its rather disappointing without it, since creating a portal is way more clunky for a fast get away.

[Freyason]

You can still take gsf trans.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

You can still take gsf trans.

Yeah, but...my point was that you are supposed to not need it anymore, so why is arguably the best of the lot still locked?

[Nitro]

You can still take gsf trans.

Yeah, but...my point was that you are supposed to not need it anymore, so why is arguably the best of the lot still locked?

It's exactly the same as before though? The transmutation secret never gave teleport, it always came from GSF. You can still take GSF transmutation at exactly the same cost as before, with the exact same end result.

[AnselHoenheim]

This is the description of the secret



By the way, the commands don't work

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

You can still take gsf trans.

Yeah, but...my point was that you are supposed to not need it anymore, so why is arguably the best of the lot still locked?

It's exactly the same as before though? The transmutation secret never gave teleport, it always came from GSF. You can still take GSF transmutation at exactly the same cost as before, with the exact same end result.

While clearly it was intended to have teleport as per the post above me in the original design, even if it were not it is not exactly the same as before. Before you had to take GSF to use any of them, now you don't. It doesn't make sense that the "lesser" teleport would be left off as a result.

Also, yeah. They work fine on the PGCC, but not in game for some reason.

[Xerah]

It was never intended to have the teleport command. The description is just an error.