Recent Ammunition Nerf

[Terminal_Templari]

I don't understand this.

Melee damage is superior in every way... archery is not game imbalanced in any way excepting the ability to hand a lowbie a stack of kickass arrows and let them obliterate things... but this isn't really any different than handing a ne melee char a cheaply enchanted sword which does +1ab/d4 elemental/d4 elemental and +4 essence. Or enchanting gloves with even more than that and watching a level 8 monk with 45+ AC fight (and beat) BOOGIN

You never see archers win tournaments... archers are not clogging the drainpipes in the sewers, you don't see a party of 5 archers obliterate everything in sight, so why the hate? Seeing a pure ranger do a crit for 160 isnt uncommon, but they already need a party to support them b/c they only crit on a 19-20 even with improved critical and aggro is a very, very real problem for all archers.

You don't see hybrid archer classes (shaman zen archer) soloing runic dungeons like some melee builds can. Archers are not the awe-inducing DPS that trueflames are. Archers basically cannot solo excepting pet builds (ridiculously high Animal empathy or shamans end-game summoning armies.)

And now you've gut-punched me on a personal level because this is something my 15 year old son enjoys... keeping up with our casual group running weapon masters and contributing in a meaningful way with ON PAR dps. It's not even higher and he's got amazing gear. When his ammunition runs out, he's not going to want to play at all because he's going to feel useless in that group, and he'd be right to quit.

This is an unneeded nerf. I beg you to reverse it.

[NicholasDeLeone]

Personal opinion on this, this is a knee jerk reaction to a perceived problem that hurts more than just the perceived problem and is a poor way of handling the situation. In my mind the issue the Dev's are looking at are the pet army zenn archer builds. Barbs + Elemental Stream makes a wall that gets rid of high reward for high risk play. But damaging every other bow user for one combination is obscene.

This could easily be handled in another ways such as removing Shaman's access to Zenn Archery just like you do favored soul's access for divine might or divine shield. I'm sure other people will have better ideas but I agree (and I have 0 archer characters at the moment) that this was a wide sweeping change that didn't need to happen.

[Dubhwulfe]

From my perspective, taking away all the points that Templari already has made.

In my mind, the ability to get better template charges by spells over essences was an awesome way to encourage networking with mages and clerics, RPing and making friends on an archetype that lends itself quite well to the "lone wanderer" cliche that some of us love to invoke.

I play a Bard Archer. It's not going to kill me, sure, it'll hurt but I'm not even that concerned because archery is a secondary to me... I can still bring use to the party through my spells and songs. I feel for friends who play pure archer builds, because they got a pretty massive nerf in this update, and I'm not entirely sure why. Is there a way to fit an "improved ammunition" system for high level rangers or rogues? Some kind of way to make these folks feel the pain less?

At low-levels, sure... archery feels overpowered when you've got gifted arrows from a high-level benefactor. But consider what this nerf does to the level 30 Ranger Archer. (Not saying you haven't already, I know you guys think about this stuff a ton, just offering an opinion.)

EDIT: Maybe it could be as simple as letting Pure Rangers create 1d8 or 1d10 essences for use on templates, only usable by ranger? This could be a neat mechanic, similar to Harper's abilities to create items.

[Deac0knight]

I'm trying to figure out what build would cause this kind of nerf to happen. An archer looking to use templated damage needs to invest a lot into the resources to keep their ammunition up to a subpar level for damage output of a melee fighter.

If you take a 30 archer and a 30 melee, the attacks will favor the melee and the dps will favor the melee. The only thing the archer gets is range. Am I missing something that put the former system in a superior place enough that it had to be nerfed so heavily?

[AstralUniverse]

This isnt about any specific build, this is about how ranged attacks work in nwn. Its an ancient and glitchy mechanic that has been exploited for long enough. Personally I predicted (wrong) a brief movementspeed debuff of maybe 1-2 seconds when shooting the first attack of the round, as was suggested before, as a more direct fix to this functionality but I guess a flat damage nerf was the way to go.

[Bazelgeuse]

From my perspective, taking away all the points that Templari already has made.

In my mind, the ability to get better template charges by spells over essences was an awesome way to encourage networking with mages and clerics, RPing and making friends on an archetype that lends itself quite well to the "lone wanderer" cliche that some of us love to invoke.

This was something I enjoyed too, considering I play a cleric who would help archers put Darkfire and GMW on their templates.

I can understand why some people would want the damage lowered, like if you had three stealthed archers getting off several crits on an unlucky target, but... couldn't you do the same with three mages casting Hellball and IGMS on someone? Or several stealthed rogues popping out and giving someone the slap-chop?

I just feel bad for all of the archery-focused characters who are have been walloped by this change. At least my cleric can still offer buffs and heals

I'd personally love to see this nerf lessened, if not reverted outright.

[Ork]

Archer damage was ridic. I appreciate the tweak, but ranged is still vastly overpowered.

[Terminal_Templari]

Mages have to rest to get spells. (easy)

Warriors need to repair their gear. (easy)

Divine need to... sit back and watch the XP tick in by supporting a party.

Archers need to...

put 10 ranks into smithing to make ingots and gears
put 16 ranks into herbalism to make their own oil, to make gears
put 35 ranks into carpentry to make templates (or 25 more into smithing, but then forget about ever making your own bows)
ranks into lore to be able

Get 2 elemental books of either air/earth/water

mug some poor unsuspecting wand-making cleric (almost a unicorn meme) to make him 173 darkfire wands because these are hard to find (assuming a divine caster dip) ... or scrolls.

spend EVERY SINGLE CP you ever have on making templates (and for me, until only recently... making ARROWS) and spend gold on a massive pile of scrolls to enchant arrow templates, churn out arrows... only to do damage that is ON PAR with other DPS classes, while maintaining the LOWEST DEFENSVE CAPACITY of any class, excepting only Trueflames.

Archers need to fight tooth and nail to maintain an AB which is relevant in PVP, and in the great game of rock-paper-scissors... this nerf will make every archer lose out in every situation. Hybrids were already boned in PVP... but now pure archers will feel it too.

[Terminal_Templari]

Archer damage was ridic. I appreciate the tweak, but ranged is still vastly overpowered.

How?

Most I've ever seen the best archer do was 181 on a crit, level 30 archer hitting something with no resistances... striking with AB of 52-54. Even with 5 APR you're still only critting, on average less than 1/round

And if you're going to nerf something across the board, there had better be a systemic problem with archery. b/c this kills any archer hybrid completely.

I'm using a top-tier archer build as an example, not my shaman/barb/ranger who can pop out 6 minions instantly... and, oh... my AB is 42. Dragons laugh at me. I'm a support build who can now not even meaningfully contribute to trash mobs.

[Lexx]

I'd have to throw my 2 cents in with agreeing over the nerf going too far. This is going to hurt a lot of ranged builds needlessly.

[Nitro]

I hope they also reduce the amount of effort needed to craft templates and ammo in general to match the damage nerf, because playing an archer is by far the most tedious playstyle with the most upkeep.

HOWEVER the nerf was entirely necessary. Those who could muster through the tedium of ammo upkeep could output ridiculous amounts of damage without any risk of retaliation or escape from them.

[Terminal_Templari]

Those who could muster through the tedium of ammo upkeep could output ridiculous amounts of damage without any risk of retaliation or escape from them.

Explain this? I find myself having to -guard the archer in the party 24/7 because he draws more aggro than the bloody trueflame does, EVEN WHEN HE MISSES

[TooManyPotatoes]

I hope they also reduce the amount of effort needed to craft templates and ammo in general to match the damage nerf, because playing an archer is by far the most tedious playstyle with the most upkeep.

HOWEVER the nerf was entirely necessary. Those who could muster through the tedium of ammo upkeep could output ridiculous amounts of damage without any risk of retaliation or escape from them.

Agreed. What most put me off the idea of playing archers was how much effort went into crafting ammo. This essentially relegates them to factions (who make their ammo for them), otherwise hardcore rping where you only very rarely enter any kind of combat.

[Nitro]

Explain this? I find myself having to -guard the archer in the party 24/7 because he draws more aggro than the bloody trueflame does, EVEN WHEN HE MISSES

Well my friend, a couple of points:
1: Archers don't use their good ammo while grinding, because it's an unimaginable pain to actually produce, and thus saved for hard bosses, or more likely, PvP.
2: Being able to output high damage per round doesn't matter as much in PvE where enemies might reliably have well over 1k HP and the ability to play keep-away will piss off the rest of your party when a simple -guard is more expedient.
3: Not all archers are built equally. It's one of the best classes for doing good damage no matter the build. Anyone could slap pure 30 ranger and still do fat amounts of damage with their good arrows, versus someone with an optimized build who hits as hard as a weapon master (with way more AB!) from the entire area away with the option to disengage at will thanks to any combination of HipS, movement speed and AC.

[garrbear758]

Sorry for anyone upset by this but here are the facts:

1. Tournaments with made up rules that generally skew towards shotgun builds are not a good metric for balance.

2. Just because you aren't personally playing an archer well or have a good build doesn't mean they aren't overpowered. We cant balance around nonoptimal builds although that is what the majority of us (myself included) usually end up playing.

3. This nerf was smaller than what I wanted.

4. Archers who know what they're doing shouldn't ever lose in real (non tournament) pvp due to nwn engine mechanics, and while that is likely still the case, this forces them to take longer kiting, which leaves room for them to make more mistakes.

[Dubhwulfe]

Fair enough, Garr.

I can’t speak on how things play at the highest level, as I do tend to play suboptimally, lol.

That said, I’d love to see 1d8 essences become craftable, or creatable by rangers or rogues to try to shore up the annoyance of searching the essences down from vendors.

[Terminal_Templari]

Sorry for anyone upset by this but here are the facts:

1. Tournaments with made up rules that generally skew towards shotgun builds are not a good metric for balance.

2. Just because you aren't personally playing an archer well or have a good build doesn't mean they aren't overpowered. We cant balance around nonoptimal builds although that is what the majority of us (myself included) usually end up playing.

3. This nerf was smaller than what I wanted.

4. Archers who know what they're doing shouldn't ever lose in real (non tournament) pvp due to nwn engine mechanics, and while that is likely still the case, this forces them to take longer kiting, which leaves room for them to make more mistakes.

Actually, I was talking about top-tier archers.

Explain to me, and please use small words because I just. don't. see. it. ... what in your mind makes archers so #OMGWTFDPS awesome that they deserve what is (conservatively) a 25% reduction in output? Seriously question. Use pictures

[garrbear758]

Actually, I was talking about top-tier archers.

Explain to me, and please use small words because I just. don't. see. it. ... what in your mind makes archers so #OMGWTFDPS awesome that they deserve what is (conservatively) a 25% reduction in output? Seriously question. Use pictures

Hold w
Click on heads

[Terminal_Templari]

I would like, if you're willing... to have an actual response. Please.

[Flower Power]

Archers need to...

put 10 ranks into smithing to make ingots and gears
put 16 ranks into herbalism to make their own oil, to make gears
put 35 ranks into carpentry to make templates (or 25 more into smithing, but then forget about ever making your own bows)
ranks into lore to be able

Get 2 elemental books of either air/earth/water

mug some poor unsuspecting wand-making cleric (almost a unicorn meme) to make him 173 darkfire wands because these are hard to find (assuming a divine caster dip) ... or scrolls.

spend EVERY SINGLE CP you ever have on making templates (and for me, until only recently... making ARROWS) and spend gold on a massive pile of scrolls to enchant arrow templates, churn out arrows... only to do damage that is ON PAR with other DPS classes, while maintaining the LOWEST DEFENSVE CAPACITY of any class, excepting only Trueflames.

Archers need to fight tooth and nail to maintain an AB which is relevant in PVP, and in the great game of rock-paper-scissors... this nerf will make every archer lose out in every situation. Hybrids were already boned in PVP... but now pure archers will feel it too.

Or alternatively:
1) Make friends with a smith (it's the single most common profession in the game)
2) Go kill golems for free gears and free oil to have your smith buddy make more gears (again, super easy, you'll always get more oil/gears than you need to keep on top of your templates)
3) Just go Carpentry to make your own bows and assemble templates as needed (you don't need anywhere near as many as you're making it out to seem)

Wandmaking clerics are very common. It also takes, what? 10-15 lore (standard on almost every build) to use Flame Weapon Scrolls and a few elemental stream books (typically obtainable for less than 10k GP each) to slap +3d10 (now +3d6) damage onto all your arrows.

AA's get some of the best AB in the game (as an Enhancement bonus that goes right through buffs, too) handed to them as part of their class package. Zen Archer Healer Clerics also easily push mid-50's AB. Archer Rangers have slightly less AB but much more damage. Rogue Archers were never that good.

A well built AA could, without buffing, potentially 100% HP -> 0% HP someone in a round or two from significant range, with minimal investment and zero risk to themselves (unless it doesn't work.) Archers were very strong, to the point where people have said "the best PvP team is one Mass Haste and as many decently built AA's as you can gather" and they weren't entirely joking. Knocking 3-36 dmg off their crits makes them marginally less terrifying.

[Drowboy]

1. Use hips, blinding speed, or just better situational awareness to start a fight at max range
2. use your big AB and/or true strike pots to land 50-60+ ab Called Shot: Legs
3. NWN's combat system allows you to shoot an arrow or three a round while you hold W and run in circles around your slowed down opponent
4. If they manage to catch you, NWN's cool hips mechanics means they can, at least once, break LoS long enough to gain some space
5. repeat until triple digit crits kill your slowed down opponent

[Terminal_Templari]

Actually, I was talking about top-tier archers.

Explain to me, and please use small words because I just. don't. see. it. ... what in your mind makes archers so #OMGWTFDPS awesome that they deserve what is (conservatively) a 25% reduction in output? Seriously question. Use pictures

Hold w
Click on heads

I am having this glitch explained to me. I am starting to understand... a glitch that I have never used.

[garrbear758]

Actually, I was talking about top-tier archers.

Explain to me, and please use small words because I just. don't. see. it. ... what in your mind makes archers so #OMGWTFDPS awesome that they deserve what is (conservatively) a 25% reduction in output? Seriously question. Use pictures

Hold w
Click on heads

I am having this glitch explained to me. I am starting to understand... a glitch that I have never used.

I mean, that pretty much is it, but Drowboy's explanation was much better than mine in how to use it in practice.

Also, even without engine abuse, Flower Power's post also covers why a nerf was necessary.

[Terminal_Templari]

thank you

I hate it, but I understand.

[Flower Power]

On the bright side, every archer is still pulling off WM-level damage on their crits.

It's just Scimmy WM-level damage instead of being Falchion WM-level damage, now.