Climb Skill

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Gouge Away
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Climb Skill

Post by Gouge Away » Sat Jan 09, 2021 11:37 pm

I am sorry to complain as I'm sure improvements are on the eventual agenda but I think the climb skill has been broken since implementation and that was months ago now.

I don't think dexterity is doing anything, if it's supposed to. I don't think the supported class levels are doing anything, if they're supposed to. I am not sure what is supposed to though, as the mechanics are hidden and all I have to go on is the changelog which is intentionally vague and I believe incorrect. The one thing that does seem to work is adding climb gear and the + from that definitely matters a lot more than any ability score or class level.

Further, the DC on ropes is hidden so there's no way to know if a rope is within the realm of possibility for you to climb (and there's no way to prove that dex isn't working without seeing the DC, other than that it adds nothing to your climb skill on the character sheet, if it is supposed to, which I am not sure of because that's hidden.) To be honest and hopefully this is taken in the spirit of constructive criticism and not as whining but I don't think it adds anything to the game to have a hidden mechanic like that and the fact that this appears broken is only more reason for transparency.

Again, sorry to complain but I just had a character stuck at the bottom of a pit because they couldn't make the roll and thought maybe it's time to bring it up again. This used to be an easy climb for someone with 30+ dex and rogue levels and now it's impossible. And, like I said, I don't know what to do to be able to plan to make that climb, as I couldn't even see what the DC on the rope was.

Thanks!

Tikin
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Re: Climb Skill

Post by Tikin » Thu Jan 14, 2021 5:05 pm

My little experience with climb :

_It's obviously a roll that can change every second, I mean if you failed once you can retry as soon as you're up (3 seconds ?) and success. I'd say this doeesn't encourage investment in the skill. A system more like the "retrieving rope" would make more sense I guess (even if in the case of failing to retrieve a rope it's excessively annoying and getting old quickly :D ), and could motivate parties to have a climber and a rope in their midst to access certain areas ... (But who knows, maybe some areas already do have this kind of aspect with really difficult and mandatory climbs to access, I can't be sure as I'm far from knowing all the places).

_More often than none, the log says you made it, but the character stays down. As long as it's this way I guess it's best not to change what I mentioned before :lol:

In any case, I get the desire to provide an interesting climbing system and appreciate the work you guys put to try to make it happen :kiss:

Gouge Away
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Re: Climb Skill

Post by Gouge Away » Thu Jan 14, 2021 6:47 pm

But the roll is hidden, so when you fail you don't know if it's ever going to be possible (except to fail 20+ times and move on.)

And there seems to be some weird math going on where +2 climb on purchased climb gear matters a lot but +2 STR or DEX buff from a potion doesn't.

At the very least I am absolutely positive dexterity does nothing despite descriptions telling you otherwise as well as common sense.

I'm not complaining about climb's existence but it seems to be broken or have incomplete implementation. The hidden dice rolls only make that more frustrating both IG trying to actually make a climb and because it's difficult to discuss OOC why it seems to be broken.

cakewalk
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Re: Climb Skill

Post by cakewalk » Fri Jan 15, 2021 9:41 am

I agree. Every time I use the climb system it’s a frustrating experience.

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Aniel
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Re: Climb Skill

Post by Aniel » Fri Jan 15, 2021 7:21 pm

The mechanics aren't hidden. At least not by design.

Climb checks do not factor in class levels. They do factor in the ability score modifier of both strength and dexterity, as well as any other bonuses to the Climb skill. While dexterity is factored in, it is done so through a script calculation and as such does not show on the character sheet.

In addition, air genasi get +1 on climb checks behind the scenes for half their HD.

Swashbucklers receive +1 on climb checks equal to half of their class levels.

There shouldn't be much of any randomness in climbing. A d20 is rolled for the check only if you are in combat. Otherwise, one is not rolled and 20 is taken automatically.




Reading this thread actually had me going back and double checking, there are SEVERAL climb systems that are all unrelated to each other, including multiples for climbing just ropes. Turns out I missed updating the failure feedback and the math on one of the rope scripts. I also missed the take 20 on aspect on it. Hopefully correcting this makes climbing less frustrating.

I'll see if I can't go back through eventually and have it give some kind of visible feedback on the skill check being made so that the numbers are more transparent.

Gouge Away
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Re: Climb Skill

Post by Gouge Away » Fri Jan 15, 2021 8:32 pm

Thanks for looking into this. Hope you take this as feedback and not whining because I'm not complaining of its existence.

This isn't the only rope I struggle with but the one a character of mine uses often is the pit under Brog next to the Screeching Cavern, and that's what I experimented on the most.

If it's a system apart from most other skill checks I understand there's different math, but hopefully you also understand why someone who didn't know that would think +2 climb skill from climb gear ought to be the same as +2 (or more) that high dexterity would add. There's no DC roll visible so it's difficult to check what actually boosts your score, as I said, and I had no idea it was take 20 now as (IIRC) the previous version of climb was always a dice roll.

I also don't believe dexterity is affecting the character's climb skill on the character sheet. Strength raises the skill, dexterity doesn't. Is that intentional?

Finally, IIRC (can't get in to the game to check this now) the IG description when using climb is completely outdated which adds to the confusion.

Thanks again!

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Party in the forest at midnight
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Re: Climb Skill

Post by Party in the forest at midnight » Mon Jan 18, 2021 4:20 pm

I put 10 points into climb hoping it would help with the spots in the Sibayad tombs, and sadly it does not. Can the check be modified to include ranks in climb?

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Baron Saturday
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Re: Climb Skill

Post by Baron Saturday » Mon Jan 18, 2021 6:58 pm

Gouge Away wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 8:32 pm
If it's a system apart from most other skill checks I understand there's different math, but hopefully you also understand why someone who didn't know that would think +2 climb skill from climb gear ought to be the same as +2 (or more) that high dexterity would add. There's no DC roll visible so it's difficult to check what actually boosts your score, as I said, and I had no idea it was take 20 now as (IIRC) the previous version of climb was always a dice roll.

I also don't believe dexterity is affecting the character's climb skill on the character sheet. Strength raises the skill, dexterity doesn't. Is that intentional?

Finally, IIRC (can't get in to the game to check this now) the IG description when using climb is completely outdated which adds to the confusion.
Party in the forest at midnight wrote:
Mon Jan 18, 2021 4:20 pm
I put 10 points into climb hoping it would help with the spots in the Sibayad tombs, and sadly it does not. Can the check be modified to include ranks in climb?
I feel like there's some confusions and misunderstandings happening here. When climb was updated, it was made to work MORE like a skill. This means that your bonus to a climb roll = ranks in climb + strength mod + dexterity mod + racial/class/gear/feat bonuses - armor check penalty. Your dexterity mod DOES NOT show up on your character sheet (likely an engine limitation) but DOES get applied to your climb roll.

That said, I do wish climb rolls were displayed, just like every other skill check. Imagine the frustration of, say, trying to pick a lock or disarm a trap and not knowing how much you're failing by.
Rolled: Helene d'Arque, Sara Lyonall
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Wethrinea
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Re: Climb Skill

Post by Wethrinea » Tue Jan 19, 2021 6:27 am

Aniel wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 7:21 pm
There shouldn't be much of any randomness in climbing. A d20 is rolled for the check only if you are in combat. Otherwise, one is not rolled and 20 is taken automatically.
That is not how it works now in my experience. On a certain icy wall in some dark mountains I get wildly varying results. On one occasion, first two successful rolls (that does not move my char up) then a failed one, then a new success (which still does not send me up) and another two failed.

Being able to see the roll in the logs would help tremendously. Especially since I can then, IC, know if this is a matter of "I need to use that other grip to swing up" or "I got to bring rope, hammer and bolts if I am to have any chance scaling that wall".
Ivar Ferdamann - Mercenary turned Marshall

Gouge Away
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Re: Climb Skill

Post by Gouge Away » Tue Jan 19, 2021 6:50 am

Baron Saturday wrote:
Mon Jan 18, 2021 6:58 pm
I feel like there's some confusions and misunderstandings happening here. When climb was updated, it was made to work MORE like a skill. This means that your bonus to a climb roll = ranks in climb + strength mod + dexterity mod + racial/class/gear/feat bonuses - armor check penalty. Your dexterity mod DOES NOT show up on your character sheet (likely an engine limitation) but DOES get applied to your climb roll.
So how am I reasonably supposed to know these things? I don't mind being called an idiot for misunderstanding (well, don't mind much) but this isn't how almost anything else in the game works, seems wildly overcomplicated and to top it off there's no feedback except pass or fail so you can't really experiment, especially when it comes to skill point investment (where nobody wants to put in a point more than they have to for obvious reasons.)

I'm sorry I am being bothersome by asking these questions but I have to think most of the playerbase is confused over this mechanic.

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Dreams
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Re: Climb Skill

Post by Dreams » Tue Jan 19, 2021 10:28 am

It’s a completely hidden mechanic. You can’t see the rolls, you can’t see the DC to beat, you can’t see whether anything is working as intended or not. The same is true for the ride skill.

To be honest this is one of the most frustrating things about Arelith, we’ve got a mix of open mechanics and hidden mechanics, which are very hard to find accurate information on outside of ‘being in the loop’.

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mirvv
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Re: Climb Skill

Post by mirvv » Tue Jan 19, 2021 11:24 am

Well my charater with 34 STR and 12 DEX stucked in a place after this update, cannot climb out on a rope (tho i havent spend climb skill from 3 skill points). :( so these places out of reach from now on kinda.
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mjones3
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Re: Climb Skill

Post by mjones3 » Tue Jan 19, 2021 1:09 pm

Don't use wasd to initiate climbing, it causes the script to not always trigger. Click once in the area that you think the check is and wait a second or 2 because sometimes it takes a moment, you can't make the roll again that fast anyways.

From my observation checks required to enter an area are typically lower and checks that are shortcuts are usually higher.

Some classes got "1 point per level" before the change. That means if you had high levels in a climb class before the change you likely had your climbing ability cut in half. 30 in a stat is only +10 climb, most of the checks were made when an epic character of the right classes would have around 27-30 climb for just existing.

Archnon
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Re: Climb Skill

Post by Archnon » Tue Jan 19, 2021 1:14 pm

mjones3 wrote:
Tue Jan 19, 2021 1:09 pm
Don't use wasd to initiate climbing, it causes the script to not always trigger. Click once in the area that you think the check is and wait a second or 2 because sometimes it takes a moment, you can't make the roll again that fast anyways.
Can't stress this one enough. Climb pathing is super wonky and you need to use the mouse to do it. If you are in a situation where you have made the check but your character is still at the bottom, then this happened. If that is the case, use the mouse to click somewhere in the area that you should be or on the other side of the climb. That usually works for me.

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Baron Saturday
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Re: Climb Skill

Post by Baron Saturday » Tue Jan 19, 2021 5:12 pm

Gouge Away wrote:
Tue Jan 19, 2021 6:50 am
So how am I reasonably supposed to know these things? I don't mind being called an idiot for misunderstanding (well, don't mind much) but this isn't how almost anything else in the game works, seems wildly overcomplicated and to top it off there's no feedback except pass or fail so you can't really experiment, especially when it comes to skill point investment (where nobody wants to put in a point more than they have to for obvious reasons.)

I'm sorry I am being bothersome by asking these questions but I have to think most of the playerbase is confused over this mechanic.
I didn't call you an idiot for misunderstanding, and I don't think you are an idiot for misunderstanding, but I'm sorry my post came across that way. As for how I would expect anyone to know those things - I wouldn't. The things that factor into the roll aren't explicitly stated by any official or semi-official source (such as the wiki). The mechanic may not be intentionally hidden by design, but since the rolls don't show, it effectively is. I think there's three things that need to happen:

1) The rolls need to be shown.
2) A dev needs to confirm that my above formula is correct so that it can be added to the wiki - especially the armor check penalty, I'm honestly just assuming on that bit, since it applies to the Climb skill in D&D 3E.
3) If the armor check penalty does apply, the skill description should be updated to reflect that, as otherwise there's no way to know.
Rolled: Helene d'Arque, Sara Lyonall
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