Henchmen Feedback

[Gouge Away]

Just going by wiki (not testing IG so maybe not all accurate, but I have run into lack of leadership access when testing builds) these classes don't get leadership:

Fighter
Divine Champion
Ranger
Weapon Master
Wizard

I realize most will dip rogue or bard, but not always and some people might just not want to play the meta-- and they're the ones who probably need henchmen helping the most. Also keep in mind many 3 level dips aren't until late epics so even if you are dipping a fighter/wm would have wished they had access to henchmen long before level 26.

There's really no reason why most these would be excluded except that it's a legacy from their not getting the persuade skill. Persuade was actually kind of a shady skill before and it's been turned into something of a different flavor so all classes should just get access now.

[Baron Saturday]

Personally, I'd lean towards giving it only to more mundane classes that don't already have powerful summons, but that would require making warlock it's own class, so giving it to everyone seems like the next best thing. Sure, most builds will have it in their dip if not their main, but since henchmen seem mostly designed to aid during leveling up, having to wait to use them until your dip ather defeats the purpose.

[Scylon]

Personally, I'd lean towards giving it only to more mundane classes that don't already have powerful summons, but that would require making warlock it's own class, so giving it to everyone seems like the next best thing. Sure, most builds will have it in their dip if not their main, but since henchmen seem mostly designed to aid during leveling up, having to wait to use them until your dip ather defeats the purpose.

That is actually a good idea.

maybe

Fighter
Cavalier
Knight
Commoner
Paladin and Blackguard (cause thematically it makes sense)

[Baron Saturday]

I was actually think of a much broader list - basically everything except wizard, cleric, sorcerer, druid, favored soul, shaman, blackguard, shadowdancer, pale master, and warlock. Problem is, some of those should absolutely have it thematically, and you can't take it away from warlock without also taking it from bard.

Giving it to everyone seems preferable.

[Skarain]

What if you want to play/roleplay a Spellcaster with a Bodyguard to protect their frail arse?

Not every Spellcaster takes Summons. 95% of them do, but not all.

Henchmen are limited to 2 slots anyways. You can't have Tribal Henchmen + Dominates + Hire henchmen.

Sure, add Leadership as an option for more classes and add neccessary limitations - such as the extra APR from Leadership doesn't stack with Haste, but don't limit the width of character concepts others can play.

--- Slightly on that note, providing hencmen exist for all characters who simply want to hire one, I would not be opposed to a few being "Mundane-locked", aka. have restrictions on who they agree to serve. Those could be balanced around the capabilities of the Mundanes and not require as much buffing to be viable - but at the same a Mundane could hire one, another PC ward them to the brim and you might have a permanent Gate-level summon cleaving if not properly balanced.

[Flower Power]

But it is. Every meta build that I can think involves their main class already having Leadership or their dip class having it, especially the dips (e.g. Div-dips, bard-dips, monk-dips.)

Meta has definitely shifted, though, with the Timestop change. Some builds that lack it are barb mix-ups, EKD, hexblade, etc.

My point being is that the already strong builds of now being allowed to double down on their strength with the addition of strong henchmen makes no feasible sense. Not saying this is the current case, but is the general theme this thread seems to want to take.

A not insignificant number of those "meta builds" heavily stack 2 + INT skillpoint classes; with discipline, lore, tumble and (arguably) spellcraft all being non-negotiable must-have skill taxes, most meta builds simply are not going to have the spare skill points to do a Leadership dump without opening up themselves up to some really glaring weakness in another department.

I don't think this is actually a serious fear, unless we actually do end up getting an overhaul of how many skill points various classes receive - which would be an overall good thing, given all the changes Arelith has made to skills.

[Good Character]

A not insignificant number of those "meta builds" heavily stack 2 + INT skillpoint classes; with discipline, lore, tumble and (arguably) spellcraft all being non-negotiable must-have skill taxes, most meta builds simply are not going to have the spare skill points to do a Leadership dump without opening up themselves up to some really glaring weakness in another department.

I don't think this is actually a serious fear, unless we actually do end up getting an overhaul of how many skill points various classes receive - which would be an overall good thing, given all the changes Arelith has made to skills.

Is your argument in favor of buffing henchmen to be on-par or better than summons?

[Batrachophrenoboocosmomachia]

Henchman AI has gotten a review and some changes made to it. Please let us know if any behaviors are better/worse now!

[Hinty]

Only done one short run with one thus far. Priestess of Auril on Skaljard. AI seems fine. Can confirm the issue with Flame Weapon scrolls however. Did not check her Attack Bonus before casting the scroll, but she has the graphic on her mace, but no +1 damage bonus, nor does she do any fire damage.

Her character sheet says she has Air and Animal domains (I am guessing just the first two alphabetically?) but her feat list says destruction/evil. fair enough, would prefer she got air personally, call lightning is just thematic for furies clerics.
She also has Brew Potion and Scribe Scroll. Seems like a waste of two feats on a low level NPC that will only ever be used for combat to me.

[Scylon]

Henchman AI has gotten a review and some changes made to it. Please let us know if any behaviors are better/worse now!

NP mate. I'll give them a good flogging later tonight.

[Scylon]

Only done one short run with one thus far. Priestess of Auril on Skaljard. AI seems fine. Can confirm the issue with Flame Weapon scrolls however. Did not check her Attack Bonus before casting the scroll, but she has the graphic on her mace, but no +1 damage bonus, nor does she do any fire damage.

Her character sheet says she has Air and Animal domains (I am guessing just the first two alphabetically?) but her feat list says destruction/evil. fair enough, would prefer she got air personally, call lightning is just thematic for furies clerics.
She also has Brew Potion and Scribe Scroll. Seems like a waste of two feats on a low level NPC that will only ever be used for combat to me.

I can confirm this bug. I made a post about it in the bug forums with flame weapon not working on no PC's

[Hinty]

Also. Skaljards Halfling Rogue Henchman Jon Sherrin, comes with Weapon Focus One Handed Concusion. Uses a Short Sword.

[Security_Blanket]

The henchmen Garris Frain seems to be in a weird spot, I'd love to test him but he appears to be a mid-tier henchmen. This is weird because he's stuck behind a faith door, in an area where you would want to be at least level 15 if not higher. I would be surprised if anyone has used him yet. You have to be a specific faith in order to find him or have Bluff much higher than the Leadership required to hire him, and only within an unspecified level. He's just a fat entitled cleric eating all of our food and refusing to travel with anyone.

[Bunnysmack]

If henchmen get raised to a level where they are actually potent in epic content, can we see a similar change made to golems?

Similar to the henchman Security Blanket mentions, you can't make them till you are level 15+. On top of that, golems require a considerable investment of feats, crafting time/collaboration, and resources to obtain an active golem.

[Scylon]

If henchmen get raised to a level where they are actually potent in epic content, can we see a similar change made to golems?

Similar to the henchman Security Blanket mentions, you can't make them till you are level 15+. On top of that, golems require a considerable investment of feats, crafting time/collaboration, and resources to obtain an active golem.

I also would like to see them more then a gimmic. In order for them to be useful into epics however I would like to see their costs skyrocket. And once dead, they are dead.

(I'm a big fan of powerful but expendable NPC guards. Huge costs for good fighting powa )

[Bunnysmack]

If henchmen get raised to a level where they are actually potent in epic content, can we see a similar change made to golems?

Similar to the henchman Security Blanket mentions, you can't make them till you are level 15+. On top of that, golems require a considerable investment of feats, crafting time/collaboration, and resources to obtain an active golem.

I also would like to see them more then a gimmic. In order for them to be useful into epics however I would like to see their costs skyrocket. And once dead, they are dead.

(I'm a big fan of powerful but expendable NPC guards. Huge costs for good fighting powa )

Wait...They don't die forever right now!? I thought that's how they worked! That's why I almost never pull mine out, besides instances of RP or mining!

[Scylon]

Aye, its perma now. But they they are in a bad place right now because by the time you can make one, (15+) they are already out classed by anything you encounter.

[Bunnysmack]

Ah! That part I was already aware of. Alas, your earlier post made me hopeful that my understanding that the golem perma-dies might be false.

[Hinty]

Harris Bosworth, Ranger/Rogue henchman in Skaljard comes with Skill Focus Animal Empathy unsure that will ever see use, but also has Weapon Focus: 1 Handed Concussion. He uses a Heavy Pick....

[Scylon]

Bug I think - I have attempted with ships and portal and the henchmen don't seem to want to follow me? This is when crossing servers.

Update - I have figured out what happens here. If you leave a server one way, and enter it another at times it initially ports you to your last location, not where on the server you portal in to. When going to the place where I left the server the merc was standing there. Still a bug tough?

[Scylon]

After testing with another henchmen tonight I have found they still just stand there and don't fight. On occasion it feel pity for me and has a few swings at one mob, however the fight is generally almost over at this point.

I have not had this level of problems with summons and when I did have the no attack bug, I could just use the tool, get it to do something, then deselect it and it would correct itself. This doesn't seem to work on henchmen.

[Drowboy]

I'm not sure if that balance pass on the UD henchmen has happened yet, but I do know a couple of the high tier ones (bloodbeard specifically) are subject to a, like, race to get grabbed and just sort of toted around by epics.

I know there's a need to make people's leadership ranks worthwhile, but maybe a couple kind of generic, less powerful Leadership Template Henchmen for 30s, while the more flavorful ones can be locked down to level 25 or so?

That way they aren't just Extra Summons In Case of PvP for 30s, and can actually be used as leveling assistants.

[Good Character]

They really should cost money per IG hour (since grinding is faster with them) and it should be drawn from your actual inventory gold to avoid people shoehorning these henchmen into PvP with little consequence.

[mjones3]

It sounds like Ranger Brennesal is having AI issues when fighting animals. Is the AI trying to use animal empathy when they have no points in it?

[Scylon]

Update -

So I took a couple of Flame fist mercs on a run, or tried too. I have 50% success. I say that because there is still an issue when using server transitions the mercs tend to disappear.

What I am seeing is if you left a server at one point, and enter via another, the system will drop you in your original location before the correction is made and send you to where you were going. However the mercs sometimes don't follow. I entered with 2 and only 1 didn't bug out.

A temp fix to this might be a "pause" where the player cannot move for a couple of seconds in greater sanctuary, and then proceed with the movement?

However the one I had did fight very well and did it's job. The previous issues I am suspecting are related to spell casting bugging it out. I'll fiddle with a few more.