Cavalier Overhaul Feedback Megathread

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Scylon
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Re: Cavalier Weapon Expansion Feedback Megathread

Post by Scylon » Sat Mar 20, 2021 1:31 am

I wouldn't mind these weapons being treated the same as a bastard sword, and thus is able to get bonus from 2h focus.

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Re: Cavalier Weapon Expansion Feedback Megathread

Post by Kenji » Sat Mar 20, 2021 11:58 am

Floral Shoppe wrote:
Fri Mar 19, 2021 8:52 am
Can you give us some suggested new cavalier builds? Let's say hypothetically for a player who's a mom and has a job and no time for spreadsheets but just likes the idea of playing horsies.
Here you go:
Lancer builds - Builds into Cav 10 and WM 7 for maximum charge damage.
Weeb Cav builds - Rogue 13 / Cav 10 / WM 7 with Katana or Light Flail and Monk 18 Cav 5 WM 7 with Katana, both have epic dodge. Ignore the 3rd build.
Barb 20/Cav 10 - All 3 rages with EDR 3
Paladin Cavalier builds - Paladin 26 / Cav 4, Paladin 23 / Cav 7, or Paladin 24 / Cav 6, take your pick.

Disclaimer: These builds are not published and have not gone through rigorous peer review yet. There are also plenty of builds being discussed on the official and community discord servers that may or may not perform better than the aforementioned builds.
Last edited by Kenji on Wed Mar 24, 2021 5:18 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Cavalier Stuff

Post by Kenji » Sat Mar 20, 2021 12:07 pm

Rasha wrote:
Fri Mar 19, 2021 2:26 pm
Could Cavalier BAB requirement be reduced from 6 to like 5 or 4?

Is bleed functioning?

Does putting points into ride also further increase the speeds?

Just trying to figure things out before relevels happen
1. No, it's intentional so no builds like Fighter/Paladin 5, Cav 10, CoT 15 or Fighter/Paladin 5, Cav 5, CoT 20 exists.
You're free to go for builds like Fighter/Paladin 6 Cav 9 CoT 15 or Fighter/Paladin 6 Cav 4 CoT 20, however, where the double-dip is there but still not the best of both worlds.

The BAB requirement is also there to discourage 3/4 BAB class starts like monk or rogue classes from getting access to a full BAB class right away... Unless Knight levels are involved, which usually changes the builds entirely.

2. Bleed is not yet introduced, pending further feedback from the current damage formula.

3. Yes and no, it increases the speed up to the maximum speed cap. Please refer to the link provided and check out the cavalier progression tab. Safe to say you need minimal ride investment to fully utilize most cavalier mounts pertaining to maximizing their speed.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... 1608779551
Scylon wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 1:31 am
I wouldn't mind these weapons being treated the same as a bastard sword, and thus is able to get bonus from 2h focus.
For weapon balance purposes the cavalry weapons will not be treated as 2H. Please refer to this post for further clarification:
viewtopic.php?f=37&t=32533&p=256220#p256220
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Re: Cavalier Weapon Expansion Feedback Megathread

Post by Kenji » Sat Mar 20, 2021 12:41 pm

xanrael wrote:
Fri Mar 19, 2021 11:02 am
So far liking the new change even if it might be a small nerf to my build overall.

I think having the spirited charge available at level 1 and scaling is a great call as you both get to enjoy the major feature of the class as soon as you take it as well as creating some tough decisions on how far to go in the PrC which is a good thing. I've never been a fan of a 3-4 level dip granting you everything you wanted. It certainly seems viable to do <10 levels, my build should have 6 total and is currently at 3 and performing well.

As far as the KD formula, I'd suggest replacing defender STR with Discipline/4 or if you really want to focus strength Discipline/6+STR/3 or something of that nature. It's a little weird that the defender's defense doesn't scale at all with level (past slightly if they pump strength) like most defenses (saves, discipline, even AC indirectly through feats+tumble+gear).
Once I received more feedbacks and completed more fixes I'll give it another review. Currently, I'm happy with the numbers on paper.
Jordenk wrote:
Fri Mar 19, 2021 7:43 pm
I’m not sure it makes sense to have a KD and a KD prevention mechanic that there is then an exception to in a given classes case. If you’re investing the discipline skill to resist KDs, you should expect that to work against all similar types of KD attacks. It makes things more consistent and understandable for players and I’m not sure the Cav needs a special KD to be viable.

It’s kind of making sure there’s little counterplay to a knockdown attempt unless you’re a str build (or e-dodge), despite having maybe invested a lot of skill points and perhaps an ESF into a resisting knockdowns. And discipline is slightly less prevalent due to KD cd anyway.

The cav is super mobile and has strong dmg output, as well as a preño piercing weapon now, I think it’s cool to have the niche of penetrating that backline and putting an archer or mage on their bum, but a unique KD check scheme for this attack based on str seems kinda imbalanced and unnecessary imo. Just use discipline and if you want to put modifiers to make the check higher do that I s’pose?
I'm renaming the Cavalier's Knockdown to Bullrush in all sources.

Also the cavaliers do not have premo piercing weapons and bullrush spirited charge at the same time unless certain heavy investments are made.

Platebreaker lance has been nerfed to +4 and Knight Commander's Sabre, special cavalry sword, both do not have access to bullrush.

Goblin scourge flail, which is +4 light flail, will require UMD 30 (goblins can't be cavaliers for now, so by that logic this is required) and 19+ rogue in order to make it +5.

Cavalry Hammer's Bec de Corbin, which is also +4, and the aforementioned light flail will require fighter 23+ in order to make it +5, which leaves 7 levels of cav available. This will make the build not meet the threshold of 8 levels in order to get 0.75s of knockdown.

Orcslayer, cav axe, is +5 specifically vs HOrc, Orc, and Orogs, which doesn't apply to more than half of the population (humans, elves, dwarves, and hin)

This means the only cavaliers with premo-piercing bullrush spirited charge are 19+ rogue 8+ cavaliers with light flails and 30 UMD, which are either:
Str rogue/cav, lower AC than the usual rogues.
Dex build with low str, KD is inconsistent. (could be dex/div with epic dodge)

And maybe some obscure builds that I missed.

Addendum: GMW on bronze bludgeoning cav weapons for spirited charge will be reduced to +4 for DR piercing purposes in eventuality. (It'll still be +5 AB)
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Re: Cavalier Stuff

Post by Scylon » Sun Mar 21, 2021 5:43 am

Kenji wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 12:07 pm
For weapon balance purposes the cavalry weapons will not be treated as 2H. Please refer to this post for further clarification:
viewtopic.php?f=37&t=32533&p=256220#p256220
Fair enough. keen for some additional 2h options then. I'm not seeing it being really worth it as things stand as there are many very nice choices for 1h, but a very limited selection for 2h builds, as the only "good" ones are race locked.

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Re: Cavalier Weapon Expansion Feedback Megathread

Post by Freyason » Sun Mar 21, 2021 11:23 am

Kenji wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 11:58 am
Barb 16/Cav 10/Fighter 4 - All 3 epic rages with EDR 3
No mighty rage for Bb 16 ;)

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Re: Cavalier Weapon Expansion Feedback Megathread

Post by Kenji » Sun Mar 21, 2021 1:05 pm

Scylon wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 5:43 am
Fair enough. keen for some additional 2h options then. I'm not seeing it being really worth it as things stand as there are many very nice choices for 1h, but a very limited selection for 2h builds, as the only "good" ones are race locked.
This feedback should go to the linked thread as it doesn't concern cavaliers
Freyason wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 11:23 am
No mighty rage for Bb 16 ;)
Fixed
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Re: Cavalier Weapon Expansion Feedback Megathread

Post by Red_Wharf » Sun Mar 21, 2021 8:19 pm

This might be slightly off-topic, but it's related somewhat. Is there any chance for the summon horse ability to be expanded to non-cavaliers with investment in the Ride skill? By that I mean making horses purchasable, maybe just the simple ones, not the Nightmares, Arcane Steeds, and other exotic horses though.

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Re: Cavalier Weapon Expansion Feedback Megathread

Post by Cerce » Mon Mar 22, 2021 6:14 pm

Cavalry hammers are not currently craftable, sans bronze. Please let me know if they get added soon, would love to give it a try!

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Re: Cavalier Weapon Expansion Feedback Megathread

Post by Kenji » Sat Mar 27, 2021 12:00 pm

Red_Wharf wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 8:19 pm
This might be slightly off-topic, but it's related somewhat. Is there any chance for the summon horse ability to be expanded to non-cavaliers with investment in the Ride skill? By that I mean making horses purchasable, maybe just the simple ones, not the Nightmares, Arcane Steeds, and other exotic horses though.
Summon Mount will not receive the Create Ammunition treatment where it'll become general use for all. There's a general concern about the amount of NPC horses created.
Cerce wrote:
Mon Mar 22, 2021 6:14 pm
Cavalry hammers are not currently craftable, sans bronze. Please let me know if they get added soon, would love to give it a try!
People will just have to make do with GMW'd bronze cav hammer for now until the database situation for crafting recipe is sorted out. (above my pay grade atm)
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Re: Cavalier Weapon Expansion Feedback Megathread

Post by Blossom » Sat Mar 27, 2021 11:22 pm

Will class and alignment always cause mounts like Nightmares to be summoned? It says "will be available" but I don't know if that means this is what you get or if you have a choice. Obvious reason I ask is because evil surfacers may not want to broadcast their alignment and not all evil is "ride a hellish Nightmare around terrorizing the countryside" evil.

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Re: Cavalier Weapon Expansion Feedback Megathread

Post by xanrael » Sat Mar 27, 2021 11:42 pm

You have 2 different summon options in the cavalier radial. Normal and special, if you pick normal you will always get a palfrey, potentially with barding depending upon level and armor worn. It's only if you pick special that is summons the special mount like the nightmare or white charger.

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Re: Cavalier Weapon Expansion Feedback Megathread

Post by Blossom » Sun Mar 28, 2021 12:14 am

Cool, thank you.

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Re: Cavalier Overhaul Feedback Megathread

Post by DM Rex » Fri Apr 16, 2021 5:34 am

Merging this topic from another separate one:
Im Batman wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:56 pm
Playing a UD Cavalier on the Under-dark server

1. Finding areas in the underdark to ride.

I tried to find a place to ride a summoned mount with no success. (I kept a small but growing list of locations I checked which could be provided upon request). A warning could be offered to underdark races choosing to level up as cavalier that this is the case, as it feels like the Cavaliers strength (being on a horse) is restricted on a majority or entirely on the underdark server. A lot of areas i feel should be restricted, but there are some that seem natural places for mounts. (Open areas, areas with existing paved Roads)


2. The summons by class and/or alignment.

This seems to benefit riders that do not focus in Mounter Combat (not the feat) as their primary motive. Someone that is focusing on mounted combat (Cavalier with Fighters, Barbarians, Knights, Weapon-master levels, etc do not get specific or cool mounts to summon). You have to be a caster of arcane or divine to get something other than a plain horse.

Maybe a summoning stream option is possible for collecting horse mounts or changing between fighter horse mount options versus arcane and divine specific mounts. Possibly Underdark ones.

I love the Idea of the class, and if there are already plans for more Cavalier related changes i look forward to them, and do want to thank you for all the work you put into it. A lot of us really appreciate the effort and the amazing place Arelith is and has become.

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Re: Cavalier Overhaul Feedback Megathread

Post by Quidix » Tue Apr 20, 2021 7:25 pm

I just noted that Cavalry weapons are not working with 2h feats, despite being 2-handable and requiring exotic, similar to Bastard Sword and Katana. Is that intentional?
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Re: Cavalier Overhaul Feedback Megathread

Post by Kenji » Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:24 pm

Im Batman wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:56 pm
Maybe a summoning stream option is possible for collecting horse mounts or changing between fighter horse mount options versus arcane and divine specific mounts. Possibly Underdark ones.
Cavaliers aren't technically supported for the UD races due to the majority of the area being unable to use mounts. There are future plans to overhaul the mount system so that both surface and UD can enjoy riding to a certain extent. However, the change will be extensive and it'll likely be done far into the future.

Instead of stream option for the mount summoning, what we have in mind in the future is (especially when we find/create Arelith-standard quality mount models) players will be able to play pokemon tame wild horses/spiders/rothes/bears/goats/etc and use them for their mounts. They'll have randomized stats (within sensible parameters for each species) inspired from Mount & Blade and can be traded via stablemaster. Nothing is set in stone, however, and it won't be limited to Cavalier prestige class alone.
Quidix wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 7:25 pm
I just noted that Cavalry weapons are not working with 2h feats, despite being 2-handable and requiring exotic, similar to Bastard Sword and Katana. Is that intentional?
Yes, it is intentional, for now. The weapon groups are still pending a discussion with the rest of the team.
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Re: Cavalier Overhaul Feedback Megathread

Post by Im Batman » Wed Apr 21, 2021 2:07 pm

Kenji wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:24 pm
Cavaliers aren't technically supported for the UD races due to the majority of the area being unable to use mounts. There are future plans to overhaul the mount system so that both surface and UD can enjoy riding to a certain extent. However, the change will be extensive and it'll likely be done far into the future.

That is amazing and wonderful to hear. it may be nice to make some areas allowed to mount a summoned horse? (maybe some of the flat open areas, places with roaths or ones already paved, around the hub, or anything you think acceptable... ) I do not know how the scripting works, but i would suspect its a toggle on the area. Any thing would be nice, even if it was limited to specific areas while we wait to see which parts can be done that were mentioned above?

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Re: Cavalier Overhaul Feedback Megathread

Post by Haroshia » Wed Apr 21, 2021 3:51 pm

Just did some testing with a friend on PGCC. None of the secondary effects (Daze/Stun/Bleed) are working right now with Level 10 Spirited Charge. Tested with Cavalry Axe, Cavalry Sword, and Heavy Flail. No mind immunity or any buffs of any kind were active.

The Knockdown does attempt on the blunt weapons at least, as I got a DC check notice, but the person being charged doesn't seem to get it in their combat log.

I would suggest if these changes aren't able to be implemented normalizing non-lance weapon damage to be closer to lance (maybe a bit lower since Lance can't be used on foot). It looks like a lot of the weapons were taxed a bit of damage with the assumption that secondary effects would make up for it, so having them be taxed and having the effects not work is kinda a bummer.

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Re: Cavalier Overhaul Feedback Megathread

Post by Kenji » Fri Apr 23, 2021 7:53 pm

I have replied on the bug report thread for cavs but for future bug reporting purposes please report it to this link:
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=32341
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Re: Cavalier Overhaul Feedback Megathread

Post by Scylon » Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:19 pm

Kenji wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:24 pm
Yes, it is intentional, for now. The weapon groups are still pending a discussion with the rest of the team.
This is like to hear. The 2h weapons are extremely limited. 1h have many good options, and some of them can be used 2h.

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Re: Cavalier Overhaul Feedback Megathread

Post by Ork » Thu Apr 29, 2021 2:54 pm

You can use any weapons as a cav. Two-handed weapons have a modifier of 6 which is higher than most weapons.

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Re: Cavalier Overhaul Feedback Megathread

Post by Haroshia » Thu Apr 29, 2021 9:10 pm

Ork wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 2:54 pm
You can use any weapons as a cav. Two-handed weapons have a modifier of 6 which is higher than most weapons.
Yeah the issue is Cav Axe and Cav Saber are marked as two-handed and are two-handable but do not use two-handed weapon focus or benefit from the +AB of being two handed. Basically they function identically to bastard sword in those mechanics but without being part of both the 2h and 1h slashing weapon focus groups.

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Re: Cavalier Overhaul Feedback Megathread

Post by Ork » Thu Apr 29, 2021 10:39 pm

I believe they are a part of the one-handed similar to Dwarven waraxe.

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Re: Cavalier Overhaul Feedback Megathread

Post by The Magical Space Papa » Fri May 07, 2021 6:08 am

Spirited charge on foot should work like mounted charge too so cav builds are extra scary that even wm will have a challenge. Lmao

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Re: Cavalier Overhaul Feedback Megathread

Post by The Magical Space Papa » Fri May 07, 2021 6:08 am

Spirited charge on foot should work like mounted charge too so cav builds are extra scary that even wm will have a challenge. Lmao

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