Cavalier Overhaul Feedback Megathread

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Complex
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Re: Cavalier Weapon Expansion Feedback Megathread

Post by Complex » Mon Feb 15, 2021 4:21 pm

I am not saying that there couldn't be stronger two-man teams, but a KD that you can only resist if you are STR based would enable very unfun options. It is a feedback thread and I am just giving my opinion on the matter. Thanks for the work and effort, though. I'm sure it'll be great.

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Re: Cavalier Weapon Expansion Feedback Megathread

Post by Archnon » Mon Feb 15, 2021 6:02 pm

I'm keen to hear more about this move from 5 to 10 levels. I get the desire to scale such a powerful thing as a charge. However moving it to ten levels puts it square in the zone lore master was in. Too big an investment to make it work on most builds but at the same time really a niche focus whose.main abilities only cover a small part of the server.

Instead, maybe considered keeping it at 5 but forcing players who want the high damage charge to invest 1-2 feats to get it. Like give spirited charge for free at half damage and reuire characters to burn a feat to double the damage and a feat to get the cc effects. As it stands, the three bonus feats are a bit ridiculous anyways.

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Re: Cavalier Weapon Expansion Feedback Megathread

Post by Jagel » Mon Feb 15, 2021 6:44 pm

With a 10 lvl investment are you exploring a buff to unmounted spirited charge? Something along the lines of a lesser version of the impact effect (shorter daze/stun, weaker dc) or such?

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Re: Cavalier Weapon Expansion Feedback Megathread

Post by Hunter548 » Mon Feb 15, 2021 7:02 pm

I think if your measuring stick for a class is "It's not quite as bad as barb/wm" then you're starting from an unhealthy premise to begin with.
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Re: Cavalier Weapon Expansion Feedback Megathread

Post by Rico_scorpion » Mon Feb 15, 2021 7:13 pm

Jagel wrote:
Mon Feb 15, 2021 6:44 pm
With a 10 lvl investment are you exploring a buff to unmounted spirited charge? Something along the lines of a lesser version of the impact effect (shorter daze/stun, weaker dc) or such?
Actually two ideas given by the above posts (i'm sure you have it all figured out kenji, but in case you look for inspiration!):

- Maybe at level 10 something like "Rider Mastery" which allows the rider to ride indoor OR in interior natural areas. That way you don't really have to buff "a lot" the "pedestrian rider" which feels counter intuitive albeit logical from a design standpoint.

- Maybe consider something like earthkin defender "class only feats" that can build the charge in different ways on top of the same chassis by burning those bonus feats into unique perks.

Anyway. I'm excited!

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Re: Cavalier Weapon Expansion Feedback Megathread

Post by Arigard » Tue Feb 16, 2021 12:57 am

@Kenji

Not necessarily the weapons, but something I've noticed is that even with 60+ ride, some of the horses you can find out in the wild seem to be quicker than the Cavalier horse even when ridden by a character with much less ride. Is there something going on with the scripts for the Cavalier horse perhaps? I though it was supposed to be an upgraded mount stats wise.
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Re: Cavalier Weapon Expansion Feedback Megathread

Post by Kenji » Tue Feb 16, 2021 2:21 am

Rico_scorpion wrote:
Mon Feb 15, 2021 4:16 pm
"does half its damage on player-characters"
I'd probably do it as "deals X times amount of damage and twice the amount of CC vs non-player, non-boss, non-elite monsters, and non-friendly NPCs", instead, which is something many MMOs do for a lot of their CC abilities.
Complex wrote:
Mon Feb 15, 2021 4:21 pm
I am not saying that there couldn't be stronger two-man teams, but a KD that you can only resist if you are STR based would enable very unfun options. It is a feedback thread and I am just giving my opinion on the matter. Thanks for the work and effort, though. I'm sure it'll be great.
I plan to play around with potential Str numbers so that non-Str builds (especially if they didn't dump Str) will still have a chance at resisting the KD, but just at a lower chance compared to str builds. It won't be absolute as I want to encourage some form of counter-play.
Archnon wrote:
Mon Feb 15, 2021 6:02 pm
I'm keen to hear more about this move from 5 to 10 levels. I get the desire to scale such a powerful thing as a charge. However moving it to ten levels puts it square in the zone lore master was in. Too big an investment to make it work on most builds but at the same time really a niche focus whose.main abilities only cover a small part of the server.

Instead, maybe considered keeping it at 5 but forcing players who want the high damage charge to invest 1-2 feats to get it. Like give spirited charge for free at half damage and reuire characters to burn a feat to double the damage and a feat to get the cc effects. As it stands, the three bonus feats are a bit ridiculous anyways.
Keeping it at 4 or 5 max likely means the caster-cavs (SS/Cav, Fav Soul/Cav, BCleric/Cav, etc.) will now obtain 1 or 2 less epic feat while still retaining their caster levels to maintain the same cavalier spirited charge damage as before. The feats are not a small loss, of course, but well worth the trade-off given the offensive capabilities provided. So they still get both the CL and spirited charge, but at the cost of an epic spell, an epic skill focus, and/or an epic spell focus. In this case that is still not the desired result.

Here are the desired result (subject to change) with the cav level cap changes:
Current Level 5 Cav damage is gained at Level 10 Cav
The new level 5 Cav damage is roughly 66.6r%~75%(tbd) of the damage and 2/3 of the CC duration/availability of level 10 Cav

Another reason I am wary about modifying abilities based on feat selection is how it interacts with the GUI. As we are aware some of the EkD tiered abilities have been bugged until the last tier is taken, until this is resolved I'd rather not add further load onto the development process.
Jagel wrote:
Mon Feb 15, 2021 6:44 pm
With a 10 lvl investment are you exploring a buff to unmounted spirited charge? Something along the lines of a lesser version of the impact effect (shorter daze/stun, weaker dc) or such?
They will not retain any of the CC while on-foot, that much is certain. Other options are still being explored and discussed.
Hunter548 wrote:
Mon Feb 15, 2021 7:02 pm
I think if your measuring stick for a class is "It's not quite as bad as barb/wm" then you're starting from an unhealthy premise to begin with.
I appreciate the concern but it's also unhealthy to assume the design of the entire class is measured against barb/wm damage alone, the earlier damage comparison was to make a point, please know the difference. There were plenty of other classes, combos, and builds that were discussed to first identify the problems with the current design before moving forward. I'd like to request something more substantial and useful than unfounded assumptions.
Arigard wrote:
Tue Feb 16, 2021 12:57 am
Not necessarily the weapons, but something I've noticed is that even with 60+ ride, some of the horses you can find out in the wild seem to be quicker than the Cavalier horse even when ridden by a character with much less ride. Is there something going on with the scripts for the Cavalier horse perhaps? I though it was supposed to be an upgraded mount stats wise.
Depends, are you talking about wild horses? I have yet to look into the mounting scripts extensively as it'll be another project for another time, but still relevant for what is planned. If you're worried about disclosing too many FOIG details, feel free to send me a private message on your discoveries.
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Re: Cavalier Weapon Expansion Feedback Megathread

Post by Jagel » Tue Feb 16, 2021 9:43 am

Cool, was just spit-balling. With a 10 lvl investment getting some oomph or utility when unmounted would go a long way

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Re: Cavalier Weapon Expansion Feedback Megathread

Post by Rico_scorpion » Thu Feb 18, 2021 9:55 am

Hey,

So yeah if it wasn't obvious I took a recent big interest in the cavalier class. So I really really REALLY want to like it/make it work.

[DISCLAIMER: I'm a PVE-boy, I'm strictly speaking of "fighting a spawn of pve foes". And this is the sole context in which my comment applies.]

But I can't lie being still a little bit confused on one point and I'm curious to have smarter people explain me what I don't see. Here comes nothing:

=> Everyone seems to agree that "spirited charge"s damage is supergood, if not OP.
==> *7 character level when using a lance, crit 20/1.5, +1d20 (becomes 17-20/1.5 with 7 WM levels)
==> For most other weapons that sparked the debates in this thread (CC), it's even less than that (*4/5/6)
==> From what I could understand it doesn't use weapon enchantments/essences in the damages calculations. I'm not sure about strenght/powerattack

=> So I'm just not seeing it. Let me give you an example: I created a level 18 character on PGCC (note: I try to test builds at certain tresholds rather than only at level 30 in a vacuum). 6 FTW 5 Cav 7 WM. The goal was to have the greatest charge possible, the earliest possible. Uses a lance for greater numbers.
==> Charges for 120 (keep in mind: I'm using a lance, so that's the most advantageous case for the cavalier, use anything else and the issue i'm pointing gets even more obvious)
==> Charges crit for 160-190
==> Normal Hits = 30
==> Crits for around 120

So If I charge I have one attack in the round that does 120 or once in a while 160+, at full bab, but if I don't go cav at all I get 4 attacks. If any of those attacks connect and crit, I already matched the Cav's super attack damage. Sure the 4 attacks have higher chances not to connect, but they also bring a granularity (less wasted damage) and a greater effectiveness of cleave/greatcleave. Also, you can't use whirwind (obviously) on a horse, so add that to the dps loss.

So what It feels is, by going 4-5 cavs levels that you could have invested elsewhere, you get an attack that is "more or less" on par with not using it, except it has huge conditions (on a horse, exterior, use a specific weapon for max effectiveness), and should be the pinnacle of cavalier. Note that I'm ignoring the + 6 AB. Sure it will come in handy for the 2/3 very high AC foes, in exterior, on surface, but your max-bab guarantees most hits anyway for 95% of the foes you will battle.

So the above is TODAY's cav, and Kenji stated that post update the same amount of damage will need even more commitment to be reached (10 cav levels). So the only reason I can find to explain going that balance-path, is that:

1- Spirited charge, by design, is the strongest on characters with low natural damage (dex/casters). And that's a problem, because it gives them high damage at little cost (4 levels), asking for more class commitment will hurt dex/casters more than strenghters (which is true for caster level reasons and dex-class feats tendency to scale off class level). But then I would argue that the base design of the feat is strange. When you picture a "cavalier charging into battle", you would think that STR WM/FTR/BARBs and the like would be a natural good fit for it, while in fact, it's best used for low-melee dps non STR meleers.
2- It's a problem in pvp for reasons I can't see either. If doing 200 or 300 damage in a round, every 2 rounds is a fearsome issue (which assumes the AC is reachable), then we have more than half the builds of the server to nerf. IGMS won't care for AC and be at a steady 240, no conditions apply either (no need to be in exterior etc).

So, all in all, I do not doubt that there are good reasons to slow-down spirited charge, but for the purposes of sheer damages (which excludes the "CC" argument, as I'm talking of the non-CC weapons), I'm just not seeing these reasons or the one I find will only make spirited charge more niche/less usable in PVE, help?

If I got things right and not missing any obvious element, then i would suggest changing completely the Cav's charge formula so that it multiplies the damages you would have normally done, that would fix the dexers/casters snatching easy damages at little cost while ensuring that strenghters using it will always do more damage than going 4 attacks against regular foes.

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Re: Cavalier Weapon Expansion Feedback Megathread

Post by Kenji » Sat Feb 20, 2021 8:13 am

Rico_scorpion wrote:
Thu Feb 18, 2021 9:55 am
I will have to disagree with many things brought up here but I fear it'd take too much time to list out everything where that time is best used to actually work on Cavaliers. I encourage you to discuss this with others on the Discord servers - official or community - in public chat with polite and respectful manners, too. Avoid 1-on-1 discussions with someone else as that can easily turn into an echoing chamber that often times stunts the growth of the discussion.

Don't take my lack of response as agreeing with what the majority of your post is, but here are what I'll agree on:
The charge damage can certainly be boosted by Str damage rather than Character Levels alone. The charge damage can be scaled further against PvE mobs (Which you've expressed in an earlier post). And that's about the extent of it.
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Re: Cavalier Weapon Expansion Feedback Megathread

Post by Rico_scorpion » Sat Feb 20, 2021 9:07 am

Note that I was genuine when I said "there must be something I'm not seeing regarding the consensus of spirited charge OPness" (applied to PVE). It wasn't a veiled attempt at converting you (or anyone) to my point. Yet the numbers in my post are real. But I will remain confused and that's okay :)

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Re: Cavalier Weapon Expansion Feedback Megathread

Post by Kenji » Sat Feb 20, 2021 9:22 am

Let's put it this way, your numbers are assuming a couple of things:
  1. The target is standing still.
  2. The AC is 15 less than the AB before rolling d20.
  3. The target does not have concealment.
  4. The target does not have significant DR such as stoneskin, premonition, or EDR+(Barb or EkD DR).
That target sounds like a PvE mob to me, and some of the above doesn't always apply, neither.

If it were up against a player character, it is more likely that the following happens:
When an attack misses (AB doesn't exceed/equal the AC value), it's 0 damage.
When a 2*30 dmg attack lands on a Premo'd target, it's 0 damage.
When 120 dmg attack lands on a Premo'd target, it's 90 dmg.
When you're chasing a moving target and hope to get 1 flurry or 1 hit off, would you rather use the former for 1 flurry of attack at AB+d20 (and then -5) or the latter where you bank all of your damage in one hit at AB+d20+6?
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Re: Cavalier Weapon Expansion Feedback Megathread

Post by Rico_scorpion » Sat Feb 20, 2021 12:56 pm

Well if the part where we "disagree the most" is on the pvp side, I can more than live with that, I can even change my mind and join your ranks (not that it matters)! My post/observation was 95% about pve anyhow. I won't pretend to have "worthwhile opinions" when it comes to strictly pvp. Thanks for keeping the discussion open, even while being busy with the spirited charge bug. Good luck with the bug smashing.

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Re: Cavalier Weapon Expansion Feedback Megathread

Post by Kenji » Fri Mar 19, 2021 12:46 am

Cav has been overhauled, please funnel all of your feedbacks here.

Utilize the spreadsheet provided in the original post for all formulas and number crunching.
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Re: Cavalier Weapon Expansion Feedback Megathread

Post by Hinty » Fri Mar 19, 2021 1:20 am

Semi related. The New Cav weapons still do not register as weapons for the purposes of modifying their looks.

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Re: Cavalier Weapon Expansion Feedback Megathread

Post by Kenji » Fri Mar 19, 2021 1:56 am

That can go to the bug report in the future but a fix is on the way.
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Re: Cavalier Weapon Expansion Feedback Megathread

Post by Skarain » Fri Mar 19, 2021 4:47 am

How is Cavalier intended to intereact with Caster classes?

Arcane Steed were tied with spellcaster classes, but since Cavalier requires 10 class level investment, will that not lower a casters Caster Level so low that it is no longer worth it?

While a Wizard/Sorcerer/Cleric riding around on a Nightmare/Arcane Steed sounds cool as hell, I ponder how much are they gaining or losing from their core toolkit for such?

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Re: Cavalier Weapon Expansion Feedback Megathread

Post by Kenji » Fri Mar 19, 2021 4:58 am

I’d like to first dispel the notion that all cavaliers must invest 10 levels into the class in order to be viable.

They can go as low as 3 levels and get the full functionality of the prestige class if they wanted. The numbers won’t be optimal, but that’s what the scaling and cookies are for.

For the record, a 7th level Cavalier with 14 strength modifier can Spirited Charge with the same amount of damage as the old lvl30 charge.

24/6 Cav in this case is just as viable. It’s up to the players to make that decision that they want better charge at the expense of cl vs dispel or retain the same cl vs dispel but less devastating charge.
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Re: Cavalier Weapon Expansion Feedback Megathread

Post by Floral Shoppe » Fri Mar 19, 2021 8:52 am

Can you give us some suggested new cavalier builds? Let's say hypothetically for a player who's a mom and has a job and no time for spreadsheets but just likes the idea of playing horsies.

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Re: Cavalier Weapon Expansion Feedback Megathread

Post by xanrael » Fri Mar 19, 2021 11:02 am

So far liking the new change even if it might be a small nerf to my build overall.

I think having the spirited charge available at level 1 and scaling is a great call as you both get to enjoy the major feature of the class as soon as you take it as well as creating some tough decisions on how far to go in the PrC which is a good thing. I've never been a fan of a 3-4 level dip granting you everything you wanted. It certainly seems viable to do <10 levels, my build should have 6 total and is currently at 3 and performing well.

As far as the KD formula, I'd suggest replacing defender STR with Discipline/4 or if you really want to focus strength Discipline/6+STR/3 or something of that nature. It's a little weird that the defender's defense doesn't scale at all with level (past slightly if they pump strength) like most defenses (saves, discipline, even AC indirectly through feats+tumble+gear).

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Cavalier Stuff

Post by Rasha » Fri Mar 19, 2021 2:26 pm

Could Cavalier BAB requirement be reduced from 6 to like 5 or 4?

Is bleed functioning?

Does putting points into ride also further increase the speeds?

Just trying to figure things out before relevels happen

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Re: Cavalier Weapon Expansion Feedback Megathread

Post by Quidix » Fri Mar 19, 2021 3:03 pm

It would be great to get clarity on what the formulas are when saying:

- "Cavalier's Strength Modifier, Size, Armor, and Cavalier Level" - and what does Armor refer to? (is it AC, or heavy/medium/light/cloth)
- "Spirited Charge now scales with Cavalier Levels and Strength Modifier"
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Re: Cavalier Weapon Expansion Feedback Megathread

Post by Jordenk » Fri Mar 19, 2021 7:43 pm

I’m not sure it makes sense to have a KD and a KD prevention mechanic that there is then an exception to in a given classes case. If you’re investing the discipline skill to resist KDs, you should expect that to work against all similar types of KD attacks. It makes things more consistent and understandable for players and I’m not sure the Cav needs a special KD to be viable.

It’s kind of making sure there’s little counterplay to a knockdown attempt unless you’re a str build (or e-dodge), despite having maybe invested a lot of skill points and perhaps an ESF into a resisting knockdowns. And discipline is slightly less prevalent due to KD cd anyway.

The cav is super mobile and has strong dmg output, as well as a preño piercing weapon now, I think it’s cool to have the niche of penetrating that backline and putting an archer or mage on their bum, but a unique KD check scheme for this attack based on str seems kinda imbalanced and unnecessary imo. Just use discipline and if you want to put modifiers to make the check higher do that I s’pose?

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Re: Cavalier Weapon Expansion Feedback Megathread

Post by xanrael » Fri Mar 19, 2021 7:43 pm

Quidix wrote:
Fri Mar 19, 2021 3:03 pm
It would be great to get clarity on what the formulas are when saying:

- "Cavalier's Strength Modifier, Size, Armor, and Cavalier Level" - and what does Armor refer to? (is it AC, or heavy/medium/light/cloth)
- "Spirited Charge now scales with Cavalier Levels and Strength Modifier"
I also had this question but was cleared up for me, the google doc in the OP has the formulas within.

"Armor" is 0 for cloth, 1 for light, 2 for medium, and 3 for heavy.

Spirited charge uses x * Cav. Level + y * Non-Cav Level + z * STR_MOD + base_weapon_damage (1d6, 1d8, etc), then there is the crit formula on top of that.

If you take the Naginata out of the picture y=2 and z=6, Naginata has a 2-hit flurry component so it halves those values. The value x varies from 4 (mostly light 1-handers) to 11 (lance).

So for something like a lance your cav level matters more than your strength while for something like a warmace a high strength would be where the majority of your damage comes from. That said you're not going to see a case of warmace overtaking lance in raw damage as the strength multiplier is basically a constant (past the Naginata flurry thing).

Where it probably does matter is if you plan to use something non-polearm style to charge, there isn't much benefit to extra cav levels if using a morningstar (cav levels are worth 2x non-cav) but there is for a bastard sword (cav levels are worth 3.5x non-cav). This might change how far you dip as it might not be worth 7 more levels for 14 more damage on a charge for a morningstar, but it could be as much as 63 more damage in the case of a lance.

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Re: Cavalier Weapon Expansion Feedback Megathread

Post by Quidix » Fri Mar 19, 2021 8:30 pm

xanrael wrote:
Fri Mar 19, 2021 7:43 pm
Quidix wrote:
Fri Mar 19, 2021 3:03 pm
It would be great to get clarity on what the formulas are when saying:

- "Cavalier's Strength Modifier, Size, Armor, and Cavalier Level" - and what does Armor refer to? (is it AC, or heavy/medium/light/cloth)
- "Spirited Charge now scales with Cavalier Levels and Strength Modifier"
I also had this question but was cleared up for me, the google doc in the OP has the formulas within.

"Armor" is 0 for cloth, 1 for light, 2 for medium, and 3 for heavy.

Spirited charge uses x * Cav. Level + y * Non-Cav Level + z * STR_MOD + base_weapon_damage (1d6, 1d8, etc), then there is the crit formula on top of that.

If you take the Naginata out of the picture y=2 and z=6, Naginata has a 2-hit flurry component so it halves those values. The value x varies from 4 (mostly light 1-handers) to 11 (lance).

So for something like a lance your cav level matters more than your strength while for something like a warmace a high strength would be where the majority of your damage comes from. That said you're not going to see a case of warmace overtaking lance in raw damage as the strength multiplier is basically a constant (past the Naginata flurry thing).

Where it probably does matter is if you plan to use something non-polearm style to charge, there isn't much benefit to extra cav levels if using a morningstar (cav levels are worth 2x non-cav) but there is for a bastard sword (cav levels are worth 3.5x non-cav). This might change how far you dip as it might not be worth 7 more levels for 14 more damage on a charge for a morningstar, but it could be as much as 63 more damage in the case of a lance.
Very helpful and informative, thanks!
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