Discussion on Gold

[lordgaist]

The other problem is players themselves, who charge a flat 6k per wand no matter what kind of wand it is, which is nuts when it costs 264 or 792 to make. This can be solved by putting pressure on settlement leaders to crack down on bad shops.
A trick for people wand shopping: If you see a flat 6k shop, look for the following spells with high charges:
Animal spells, Haste, Protection from Elements, Freedom of Movement, Ghostly Visage.
These spells all cost 4k to make a wand of, if the wand has 41 or more charges they're making less than 50 gold a charge, you are effectively saving money. If you find a 47 or more charge stoneskin, lesser spell breach, or improved invisibility wand, 6k is a good price too.

I actively snort in real life whenever I see a 6K wand posted in a shop with only 27 charges. Sadly, it's more commonly done than it should be

As someone who runs a 6k shop yes I find your input really helpful, You bring up a lot of good points. I suppose raising the more commonly used animal buff wands to 8k like everyone else and lowering the price of wands that aren't used as much is probably much more considerate. Rather than giving people a break on wands they need its probably better to give a price on wands that people dont really need.

[Nekonecro]

Sarcasm aside I wish more folks running wand shops to use a tiered pricing system dependant on charges. I used to run one myself and priced wands with low charges cheaper for the following reasons:

1. Lower charges mean a lower UMD requirement, thus lower levels can use them. They have less gold to spend on consumables.
2. Cheaper wands tend to sell faster opening up slots for more wands. The higher sell rate means more money made over multiple sales rather than the more expensive high charges.

In my opinion I think it's a healthier sales tactic.

[Aniel]

"you shouldn't do coke"
"yeah well this guy is doing meth just down the street"
...ok, you still shouldn't be doing coke, 6k wands are silly

[Party in the forest at midnight]

Sarcasm aside I wish more folks running wand shops to use a tiered pricing system dependant on charges. I used to run one myself and priced wands with low charges cheaper for the following reasons:

1. Lower charges mean a lower UMD requirement, thus lower levels can use them. They have less gold to spend on consumables.
2. Cheaper wands tend to sell faster opening up slots for more wands. The higher sell rate means more money made over multiple sales rather than the more expensive high charges.

In my opinion I think it's a healthier sales tactic.

This is the sane thing to do. I sell wands at 50g per charge plus base cost, very few wands go over 6k. I should go set up temp stalls in various cities.

[Wethrinea]

I have honestly not noticed any difference since I started playing in march 2020. Direct gold drops have never been the main source of income on my characters, which are all strength based and hybrid casters at most. Jewellery, scrolls and the odd mithril dust/star sapphire, as well as 'craft points for money' have easily funded decent gear and consumables for all of them. A "mistake" my characters have often observed is people selling their craft points way too cheaply. On big, expensive projects, those are worth quite a bit. Granted, I have never been able to afford the 3 million masterwork blade rune, but that has never impeded actual adventuring.

If anything, lowering the cost of crafting potions, or expanding the potion list in herbalism would do the most for non-umd mundanes in terms of making adventuring more affordable. For those who can make use of wands, there is wide availability at a low price. With 6k, you can usually find a zoo/barkskin/FOM wand with 40+ charges. That does last for quite some time, and will be earned back many times over during a dungeon run.

And as a wand crafter, one problem is that the cost of making the wand is the same whether it has 27 or 47 charges. Perhaps a scaling cost could be implemented?

[-XXX-]

The craft wand feat is balanced poorly against crafting/brewing/scribing IMO. UMD requirement aside, the amount of charges that you end up with is ridiculous when compared to crafted potions, brewed potions and scribed scrolls.

> no wonder that everyone tries to go the UMD route when it essentially provides 10x the value for 10% of the price.
> no wonder that everyone who can make them sells them as the only merch in their shop - the demand is so high that they can get away with excessive markup prices.

You're making fun of "6K shops", but why should the merchant lower their prices when uninformed people keep buying?!
ATM getting ripped off on a wand still equals saving a lot of money when compared to buying potions or scrolls! That alone speaks volumes.

[Lexx]

You're making fun of "6K shops", but why should the merchant lower their prices when uninformed people keep buying?!
ATM getting ripped off on a wand still equals saving a lot of money when compared to buying potions or scrolls! That alone speaks volumes.

This. Things are worth what people are willing to pay for them and getting snarky over wand pricing doesn't help anything.

[mash]

Artificially limiting wand prices would only lead to remote locations becoming even less competitive. It is reasonable that wand prices in large cities are higher than for a remote shop. I have run a shop in a good, but non-prime area and I learned quickly I had to drop prices significantly compared to Cordor. Still, despite regular sales the margins on zoo wands were rather modest so that I was lucky to make about 1k-2k profit per RL day. That may sound much if you don't account for the fact that it requires daily restocking, which means to travel to it, check recent sales, change up your spellbook, get gold from the bank, rest, change your spellbook again, leave to where you actually want to go. Those are about 15 minutes of time every day. Mind, the location was still reasonably good, and I really don't see how a shop in a really bad location could survive beyond just gifting their wands away if the prices dropped much more. At some point you can just as well go grind a dungeon.

Finally, wands are supposed to be significantly more efficient than scrolls and potions to compensate for them being only available between levels 1-4, having mostly lower CL and requiring (sometimes) a UMD dip to use. Scrolls go up to level 9 and require a skill everyone can use, potions take only half an action to drink and have some unique and powerful options like Heal. While I would not object to lowering potion prices, efficiency should clearly be in favor of the wand.

Edit: Considering city prices, one should also not forget that the city takes between 2-10 % tax of the sales price (not the profits!) as tax.

[-XXX-]

wands are supposed to be significantly more efficient than scrolls and potions to compensate for them being only available between levels 1-4, having mostly lower CL and requiring (sometimes) a UMD dip to use. Scrolls go up to level 9 and require a skill everyone can use, potions take only half an action to drink and have some unique and powerful options like Heal. While I would not object to lowering potion prices, efficiency should clearly be in favor of the wand.

Edit: Considering city prices, one should also not forget that the city takes between 2-10 % tax of the sales price (not the profits!) as tax.

Wands being more efficient yes, but not by the current margin. Though I agree with you on that it's probably the costs for brewing potions and scribing scrolls that ought to be tweaked rather than the way around.

I think that it all boils down to what builds are self-sufficient and which ones need to rely on consumables to operate. There's no wonder that we see Scrooge McDuck spellmonks and druids while your stereotypical Conan the barbarian keeps running around in loincloth because he can't afford a decent pair of pants. Making consumables more affordable might decrease the wealth gap between character builds.
Then again, that'd go against the notion of getting coin out of the circulation, so I dunno - nerf spellmonks and druids I guess?


Higher market prices in cities make perfect sense. The merchant is paying a tax for having a shop in a place with higher traffic. The customer is paying a premium price for convenience. It all works, these shops are still able to move a much greater amount of merchandise than the remote ones (even despite lower prices in those).
Shop stalls at Crow's Nest and Arcane Tower should be taxed too.

[Emotionaloverload]

Shop stalls at Crow's Nest and Arcane Tower should be taxed too.

I believe they are taxed. At least, back in the day, all shops that were outside of settlement jurisdictions such as the Campsite and Tower had a flat 10% tax. It went to no one but it was still there. I am pretty sure its still there.


-S

[Bunnysmack]

I'll apologize for my previous comment. Having looked a bit closer at the calculations for both wand crafting cost and generating wand charges, I have a better idea of the point of view of wand merchants. I still think 6k for a 28 charge wand is a bit high, but it isn't as absurd a cost as I previously thought. I shall now refrain from snorting about it.

[Hazard]

I have honestly not noticed any difference since I started playing in march 2020. Direct gold drops have never been the main source of income on my characters, which are all strength based and hybrid casters at most. Jewellery, scrolls and the odd mithril dust/star sapphire, as well as 'craft points for money' have easily funded decent gear and consumables for all of them. A "mistake" my characters have often observed is people selling their craft points way too cheaply. On big, expensive projects, those are worth quite a bit. Granted, I have never been able to afford the 3 million masterwork blade rune, but that has never impeded actual adventuring.

If anything, lowering the cost of crafting potions, or expanding the potion list in herbalism would do the most for non-umd mundanes in terms of making adventuring more affordable. For those who can make use of wands, there is wide availability at a low price. With 6k, you can usually find a zoo/barkskin/FOM wand with 40+ charges. That does last for quite some time, and will be earned back many times over during a dungeon run.

And as a wand crafter, one problem is that the cost of making the wand is the same whether it has 27 or 47 charges. Perhaps a scaling cost could be implemented?

The cost being the same is why I never bother to alter the price of my wands.
My crafter characters tend to be pure 30 builds, so I have good charges. It always costs them the same amount to craft it, so they also sell them for the same amount. I'd LOVE for the cost to scale with charges, but only if it benefited more charges over less. Otherwise having lower CL might end up being 'better' for making wands than high CL when merchant rp is concerned.

[Quidix]

What about just making the wand charges a 'flat CL' bonus instead? As a wand crafter it's annoying to rightclick every single wand, and then set separate prices based on # charges (this may feel 'fair' to the buyer, but is not for the seller).

From: 1d20 + (CL - 20 (minimum 0)) + 20
To: 10 + (CL - 20 (minimum 0)) + 20

[AstralUniverse]

I think changing CLs of wands of hour/lvl duration is kind of an unnecessary dev time investment since hours are about to be 3 times longer.

[Hazard]

What about just making the wand charges a 'flat CL' bonus instead? As a wand crafter it's annoying to rightclick every single wand, and then set separate prices based on # charges (this may feel 'fair' to the buyer, but is not for the seller).

From: 1d20 + (CL - 20 (minimum 0)) + 20
To: 10 + (CL - 20 (minimum 0)) + 20

Kinda like the sound of this idea, too.

[Skibbles]

I want to touch on two things: I haven't seen mentioned yet the power ceiling there is between characters that struggle with gold versus characters that don't, and then some basic money making tips to help out.

Power Ceiling

Casting characters, for example, can make a lot of gold and spend very little. One thing to note, however, is that no matter how much gold you accumulate and spend you will never, ever, raise that spell DC. Your Elemental and dracolich will still get annihilated in the first fight in an epic dungeon. Well over half your magic is cheaply and easily hard countered by potions and breaches, and epic monsters laugh with their 45+ fort saves, will immunity, your tiny spellbook and inability to refresh it alone.

Melee characters can struggle a lot, but they can reach a far higher ceiling after more significant investment. You can spend huge amounts of money to get insane saves and be impervious to almost any spell. You can burn away a dozen swords for a keen, or invest in a rune, to blast out five hundred damage per round. You can fill your inventory to the brim with every wand and scroll for every situation and cast it almost just as well as any caster (or better, when being dispelled). After enough investment even the most mundane weaponmaster can solo tons of content and dominate PVP.

Basically what I'm saying is that while gold may be easier to make as a caster, it also has less value.

Actual On Topic Tips

I've spent a huge amount of time, several hundred hours at least, volunteering as the designated group looter simply because I've mained a generalist wizard for quite a while which means I cast mass haste and then stand around doing nothing so I might as well loot during the fights. I have some practice.

I haven't noticed gold being more difficult to get, especially in the wake of the leadership change that gives thousands upon thousands more gold for a bag of heads than it did in the past (find a leadership character and buddy up for massive cash!) In fact since the leadership change I've seen a huge increase in gold splits for a four-five person group for level 24+ content in the Underdark. Like by several thousands per person if a leadership character is present to sell the heads.

Note that the majority of the time I've not really invested in Search or Appraise beyond the INT score until recently, but I do recommend keeping those +6 appraise gloves and fox's cunning and throwing them on when offloading the goods. If you're playing a non-caster you have the luxury of changing into a INT/search/open lock/disable trap outfit without losing spellslots, at higher tier chests, to hopefully trigger the search bonus which notably increases the value of the goodies inside. It's annoying to do, but once you find a Helmet of Brilliance and can flip it for 30,000 gold in town it's not so silly.

Some characters are literally shocked when I'm splitting down the final gold pile, that I might even see as an average return, which leads me to believe that making gold from adventuring isn't as easy as it can seem to an experienced player.

Gold drops have always been the least valuable portion of loot. Scrolls and jewelry has always been the greater, and there's a ton of little widgets and doodads like gears, beholder eyes, flame/iceberrys, cure critical potions, etc, that sell for maximum vendor price per single unit (split stacks, always!). With good appraise you can sell many looted items for almost 550 gold each, and there's a ton of little items that act just like this.

My greatest advice for making gold is to DIY. If the party's designated gathering buddy is selling everything and giving back a conspicuously rounded amount that doesn't seem right - they are either fleecing your character or more likely they just don't know what they're doing. At the very least go through and double check the drops. You'd be surprised how many thousands of gold in loot people leave behind.

Looting is an art form that takes a lot of practice and experimentation. Some items that don't seem to sell to anyone, can sometimes be sold at very specific vendors for huge amounts. Traps for example can't be sold most places, but guess who does buy them for max value? Tinkers. You know those lootable stingers from the stinger warriors in the UD? Oh, you bet, that's tens of thousands of gold just from those, some stacksplitting, a visit to Greyport, and a few trips.

Loot everything, drag it around for days on end trying to sell it to whatever random vendors you bump into during your travels. Eventually you'll start to really get an idea on how to streamline your income, where to sell stuff, what to take from monsters, etcetera. Good luck!

Edited to format stuff.

[Lexx]

I want to touch on two things: I haven't seen mentioned yet the power ceiling there is between characters that struggle with gold versus characters that don't, and then some basic money making tips to help out.

Power Ceiling

Casting characters, for example, can make a lot of gold and spend very little. One thing to note, however, is that no matter how much gold you accumulate and spend you will never, ever, raise that spell DC. Your Elemental and dracolich will still get annihilated in the first fight in an epic dungeon. Well over half your magic is cheaply and easily hard countered by potions and breaches, and epic monsters laugh with their 45+ fort saves, will immunity, your tiny spellbook and inability to refresh it alone.

Melee characters can struggle a lot, but they can reach a far higher ceiling after more significant investment. You can spend huge amounts of money to get insane saves and be impervious to almost any spell. You can burn away a dozen swords for a keen, or invest in a rune, to blast out five hundred damage per round. You can fill your inventory to the brim with every wand and scroll for every situation and cast it almost just as well as any caster (or better, when being dispelled). After enough investment even the most mundane weaponmaster can solo tons of content and dominate PVP.

Basically what I'm saying is that while gold may be easier to make as a caster, it also has less value.

Actual On Topic Tips

I've spent a huge amount of time, several hundred hours at least, volunteering as the designated group looter simply because I've mained a generalist wizard for quite a while which means I cast mass haste and then stand around doing nothing so I might as well loot during the fights. I have some practice.

I haven't noticed gold being more difficult to get, especially in the wake of the leadership change that gives thousands upon thousands more gold for a bag of heads than it did in the past (find a leadership character and buddy up for massive cash!) In fact since the leadership change I've seen a huge increase in gold splits for a four-five person group for level 24+ content in the Underdark. Like by several thousands per person if a leadership character is present to sell the heads.

Note that the majority of the time I've not really invested in Search or Appraise beyond the INT score until recently, but I do recommend keeping those +6 appraise gloves and fox's cunning and throwing them on when offloading the goods. If you're playing a non-caster you have the luxury of changing into a INT/search/open lock/disable trap outfit without losing spellslots, at higher tier chests, to hopefully trigger the search bonus which notably increases the value of the goodies inside. It's annoying to do, but once you find a Helmet of Brilliance and can flip it for 30,000 gold in town it's not so silly.

Some characters are literally shocked when I'm splitting down the final gold pile, that I might even see as an average return, which leads me to believe that making gold from adventuring isn't as easy as it can seem to an experienced player.

Gold drops have always been the least valuable portion of loot. Scrolls and jewelry has always been the greater, and there's a ton of little widgets and doodads like gears, beholder eyes, flame/iceberrys, cure critical potions, etc, that sell for maximum vendor price per single unit (split stacks, always!). With good appraise you can sell many looted items for almost 550 gold each, and there's a ton of little items that act just like this.

My greatest advice for making gold is to DIY. If the party's designated gathering buddy is selling everything and giving back a conspicuously rounded amount that doesn't seem right - they are either fleecing your character or more likely they just don't know what they're doing. At the very least go through and double check the drops. You'd be surprised how many thousands of gold in loot people leave behind.

Looting is an art form that takes a lot of practice and experimentation. Some items that don't seem to sell to anyone, can sometimes be sold at very specific vendors for huge amounts. Traps for example can't be sold most places, but guess who does buy them for max value? Tinkers. You know those lootable stingers from the stinger warriors in the UD? Oh, you bet, that's tens of thousands of gold just from those, some stacksplitting, a visit to Greyport, and a few trips.

Loot everything, drag it around for days on end trying to sell it to whatever random vendors you bump into during your travels. Eventually you'll start to really get an idea on how to streamline your income, where to sell stuff, what to take from monsters, etcetera. Good luck!

Edited to format stuff.

This is invaluable advice. Also to add on top. Some players will pay more for some drops than even a merchant when you have high appraise. Many drop items ( not most but a decent amount ) have tangible gold value and people will pay for the convenience of them that know their worth. Significantly increasing income of a str character that can afford to lug all that stuff about.

I also agree wholeheartedly on the power cieling. Casters get theirs frontloaded whilst melee and mundanes have a higher hill to climb but once they're there it's a lot more improvement that's tangible to them to be made.

[Skibbles]

This is invaluable advice. Also to add on top. Some players will pay more for some drops than even a merchant when you have high appraise. Many drop items ( not most but a decent amount ) have tangible gold value and people will pay for the convenience of them that know their worth. Significantly increasing income of a str character that can afford to lug all that stuff about.

Thank you, and yes. My post was getting pretty long so I didn't want to keep adding on.

Things like dragon blood are a good example of this. Vendors pay little, it has almost no value to non-casters and non-alchemists, and it's a pain to grind for it specifically. This means you can sell them to some merchant PCs for a pretty decent sum in bulk.

[Flower Power]

Sarcasm aside I wish more folks running wand shops to use a tiered pricing system dependant on charges. I used to run one myself and priced wands with low charges cheaper for the following reasons:

1. Lower charges mean a lower UMD requirement, thus lower levels can use them. They have less gold to spend on consumables.
2. Cheaper wands tend to sell faster opening up slots for more wands. The higher sell rate means more money made over multiple sales rather than the more expensive high charges.

In my opinion I think it's a healthier sales tactic.

Not on Arelith.

Since the infamous Lore/UMD change, Wand UMD requirements on Arelith are static, divorced from the normal NWN mechanics. The bulk of the wands that a lowbie is probably going to buy will never require more than 1-5 UMD, and a wand will never go above 15 UMD (allowing anyone L12+ to, in theory, use any wand if they invest in UMD early.)

I, personally, hate variably priced wand shops. I want to know how exactly much money I'm going to have to withdraw from the bank before I visit my usual wand shop to refresh my stock, without having to go and check the prices on the wands that are in stock that day. Whenever I see a shop that stocks wands with variable prices, I just ignore it and move on to a different one - there's no shortage of competition for me to choose from, usually.

[Blossom]

When I was selling wands I usually had no idea what the going rate was so I'd just sell them for what they were worth to me to make, number of charges be damned. I think some of you expect way too much time investment and research on the part of PC merchants if you're complaining every wand isn't market value based on # of charges and what other merchants sell them for.

Besides like someone above said it costs the same to create a wand no matter how many charges the RNG gives you so I figured it would even out in the end. I threw the haste wands in there for a price that felt right and they sold because everyone can use another haste wand even if it's 500gp more than it probably should be.

[Archnon]

This has been an interesting discussion on wands. However, I feel like no one is getting rich on wands, certainly not 10 million gold rich. There are a few players who have been tracking shop sales floating around and the consistent message is that what makes money is big tickets crafted items. The cost-to-profit ratio is just so different there. Further, wands aren't necessarily helping strength builds. Many true strength builds don't have room to dip rogue/loremaster/bard just for wand access. Though if they do, that is a further point towards waiting to see how the time change impacts costs for mundane builds. Wands will last an especially long time given the shift.

I would still like to see more herbalism potions with full duration, like the giants strength potion.

[Blossom]

Arcane wands no. Divine wands are usable by a lot of non UMD classes and you can make a lot of money. Travel and trickery domains plus create wand is a cash cow for clerics.

[Skibbles]

My opinion/tips mostly stems from most time spent in the Underdark, and I have a feeling that there can be quite a difference between the margin of profits in the UD versus the Surface. There could also be a difference between the viability of roleplaying for profit too. I've had about 4 UD characters and 3 surface characters. I've never struggled with gold with any of them, but have made more overall in the UD.

Wands, even at the rock bottom price of 6k that almost never happens in the UD, don't even seem relevent to the thread. 6k wands is less of a profit and more of a public service if anything.

The most useful ones cost 3960 gold (or something very close) to make. Zoo, imp invis, breach, haste, ghostly, and a few others. After average 10% tax, on a 6k wand, the profit margin is less than 1400 gold for the merchant. If you're under level 30 you're also spending 300 xp to make these which is going to rapidly accrue after you make a dozen of them.

Some wands like shadow conjuration are almost free to make (800 gold and I think 78 xp), but others like flame arrow cost something insane like 9k gold and 1k xp to make. I've never seen the former at an outrageous price either, and if it is you can easily just ask around instead of buying it off the shelf and you'll find a source quickly enough if you focus and pester people.

Wand makers have to tend the stall every day, screw around with figuring out which ones they need to restock, get drunk and deal with the awful rest system to prepare the spells, buy the bones, then throw them on the shelf, then rest again to get their actual spell book back. The shop owner is spending potentially quite a lot of time on this too, and it's a huge hassle. Time that could be spent killing monsters, or role-playing, both of which can generate huge sums of gold and are usually more fun.

It gets really tiresome to do this every day, and I've had a wand shop on and off over the years (though I sold at 5.6k because my character was little better than a smug marketing troll more interested in driving other characters out of business than turning an actual profit) and as I've covered already this money is virtually useless to a caster anyway - profits are likely being shared with other characters which is a good thing, or just being piled up which effects nobody at all.

A character with 10 bazillion gold, that doesn't spend it, is a character with zero gold. It's a non-issue.

Honestly if people can't afford to spend 6k on a transmutation wand (this is literally the best price you'll get in the UD) that will last for at minimum 27 runs in a dungeon (assuming for some reason you prefer to solo everything) then you're probably doing something very wrong (could be the soloing everything part). It's a minor expense, and a minor profit, and the wand user will be making well over the cost by the time the wand dies.

Back on topic, hopefully, I've seen a lot of this thread laden with complaints about rich characters. Arelith is not a zero sum game. Vendors create money out of thin air during every sale. Powerful monsters drop gold-plated heads. Constructs drop loads of free ingots and vendor-maxing gears and cogs. Characters are giving away hundreds of thousands of gold, or helping with crafting, just to get your fresh PC involved with them or their faction. Chests regularly spawn with items than you can sell in a temp stall for tens of thousands. Money is literally everywhere and is freshly generated constantly.

Besides the ease in which money can be made by looting - has anyone tried role-playing for gold? Has anyone just asked a rich character for money? A lot of them will just dump it on you in exchange for some barely tangible service or promise.

I've given away hundreds of thousands of gold on a 'rich PC' to totally random characters/players, and received just as much on fresh alts from other characters/players just by asking and offering to do work and help out. One of my more recent alts was just handed 300k before getting to level 20 just by delivering resources regularly and promising to help if they ever got in trouble. I have no idea who the player was, never talked to them OOC that I know of, and that character ending up rolling long before I spent the money or even had to hold up most of my end of the bargain.

Ask for help. Get involved. Even baby eating drow will often be happy to help you out because there are players behind those drow and players by and large like to get people involved. Bowing and scrapping is a wildly profitable enterprise, and all you have to do is not get your own personal pride bungled up in your character.

Andunor's Sharps district used to have resource drives (they still might) where the person who brought in the most leather, or stone or something, won huge prizes (once a free master blade rune that's often worth 3 million gold!!). I think there were prizes for second and third place too but I'm not 100% on that part.

The character holding these drives was obscenely wealthy which I'm sure produces much frothing at the mouth but the real fact of the matter is that they were also dumping buckets of gold back onto other characters regularly by creating opportunities for everyone that chose to get involved. Random non-faction characters won these drives pretty often. You could technically be level 3 running around killing rothe in the plains for their leather, maybe with a few other level 3s, and win this drive - by level 4 have 3 million gold in assets to split between your little band.

Thats just one example of many.

Arelith, for all the faults we can nitpick for ages, is an RP server, and RP is easily of the most profitable activity. If you want to play solo but reap the same rewards of characters that have learned to organize, work together and combine their resources in actual roleplay then you're just playing the wrong game.

Roleplay for gold. Can't afford 6k wands? Surely you've met one character-friend by now who you can ask for wands at a discount. Don't have a friend? Read the shop owner's sign, contact them in person, tell them of your plight, that you would like a discount, and in exchange you'll bring them neat stuff for their shop you find while out leveling. Quid-pro-quo.

That doesn't work? Just pester people. There's plenty of level 30 characters standing around the Hub or in Cordor that can make wands that don't have a shop that might even bust out two dozen wands at cost for you because it doesn't effect them at all and you're covering the gold portion.

Of all the concerns laid out here the wands is one of the more mind-boggling to hear because it's barely a pittance for all parties involved and depending on the merchant they could be losing gold spending time on it when they could be making tens of thousands killing monsters and selling their heads.

[Xarge VI]

Hear hear.
One of my characters was able to make millions with a wand shop at one time in history, but that was because she had a monopoly and could up the prices to 7,5-9k per bull/impinvis wand. (At the time wand shops were scarce for some reason and she had a shop in The Hub.) People were so Maaad but still kept buying.

My current character has had different shops over time but mostly just breaks even with from all the character's running expenses selling them at 5,5k price range. Any profit made from a shop was due to crafted items, wands mostly serving to attract attention to the shop.

Also, yes. Making wands for a shop is tedious as hell.

[AnselHoenheim]

In this situation about gold, I need to say, that I have played lately a few characters, and I had some experience already about what gold making is, and what it could be, and I feel there is a large gap, and this is based to certain factor:

It's balanced around builds, but not around skills.

Which means, if you have a friend with appraise, leadership and search, well, you have there a gold mine, literally, I have several character with different appraise and it's crazy the difference between them, I'll offer the examples:

- I have started an UD monk recently, and, even at level 7-8, I'm struggling to get like 10k gold or so, maximum gaining I'm getting of it's about the writs I'm doing (Poorly paid) and the small bits here and there I'm collecting, specially stinger barbs (Already mentioned in this post), scrolls, jewelry....He has no appraise, no search, and no leadership, so I can understand why it struggles, I do spend approximately 2-3k gold in consumables so basically, he's getting a benefit of 1-2k gold, that is normally spend in enchantment or so.

- I have also playing a battlecleric and it is in mid epics, I have been particularly trying to avoid places where gold can be obtain, and donating resources on a settlement for certain RP reasons, she can buff herself to the top, and smash everything in her way, she barely spend resources, perhaps a charge or two of a wand, and maybe the casual conj potion, just for the maxing, a run around Glorag Mur or similar might net to her approximately 10-20k gold, and I'm avoiding to sell gems because I'm the laziest of all times, which possibly at this point might net approximately 3k extra gold per run, she has no appraise, leadership or search, but she has appraise equipment, she spends almost no gold, and rely on herbalism and alchemy for her own essences, and healing potions, so no loss of gold, or barely whatsoever, that gives her the benefit of 20k gold almost integrily.

- And now, the last one, a Bard LM, 20 natural int, max appraise, max leadership, and max search, now, in this one, already maxed out to level 30, I am GRINDING in the good places where you can get a lot of gold, a simple run of gold around certain areas of the server, specially at the lost desert , while avoiding selling scrolls (RP reasons as usual), can net her approximately from 100k - 140k gold, other kind of dungeons of mid range might net her approximately 50-60k gold and the casual dungeoning around epic areas, about 30-40k gold (This one I'm forced to sell a few scrolls), it's also a character that spends a lot of gold in scrolls, consumables, wands, and the like, but basically, the benefit from going to the lost desert and grind there might be of approximately 80k - 100k gold, give or take depending in which mood are the nomad clerics that day.

As you can see, the differences between the three characters is noticeable, ofc, the first one is a little unjust to judge as it has just started and it might need a further revision in the future to see if the character is particularly viable in terms of gold gaining, however, the other two characters have a great gap in terms of gold gaining, and the difference is basically, maxing the proper merchant skills, as I call them.

I hope these little examples have brought some enlightment to devs and perhaps a few hints for players in case they want to change strategies, but basically it's selling everything you find valuable, taking account to appraise, and leadership, and understand one important thing, sometimes, in dungeons, specially the hardest ones, you WILL burn resources, because the difficulty of that place will require you to burn them, that's why, for those dungeons it's better to bring up a party, enjoy the experience, and don't look the numbers, after all, this is an RP server.