HIPS (SM & SD)

[Drowboy]

It is painful to see how this mechanical change can hurt the story lines.

i dont really see how not being able to activate your busted cloaking device irretrievably harms plotlines and setting integrity

So they now get full caster access, including evo at -6 (transmu is not included anymore)

So you're a mage with max-scaled (slightly more resistable) IGMS, hellball, and gruin access, that also has +2 DC and CL to half the spellbook. If you genuinely think losing HIPS makes this unplayable, you might want to reexamine your reliance on cheap exploits.

[xanrael]

I do wish Bioware/Beamdog had given modders the ability to modify when the flat-footed condition applied so if someone is using WASD, lag, their action queue is cleared for a half second but they're otherwise fine, etc it didn't tank their AC.

One thought for the remaining feat for Shadowdancers is perhaps it could be a 2 effect ability.
Round 1: You gain 99% concealment but are still target-able. This has a blatently obvious FX.
Round 2: Standard HIPS disappearance

That way an attacker knows it is coming and has 6 seconds to sort out their queue to avoid being flat-footed. The shadowdancer could keep attacking but if so then Round 2 never happens and their cooldown timer is still used.

Not meant as a finished product of an idea, but basically telegraphed move with some defensive advantages and still has a cooldown.

[JoeKickAss]

]

If you do not wish to have discussions in good faith, then please keep your rhetorical questions to yourself.

My problem is you are not only taking rhetorical questions and answering them but taking genuine questions and not answering them.

Take the link between SD and SM. Both classes have an undeniable mechanical link. If you take SD so you dont lose CL as a SM, which very obviously makes highly effective illusionists with very strange mechanics. When I last looked at the numbers, most SMs dip SD or at least a very large number do.

Now you are free to talk about whether you think all those players are picking the wrong classes, but that is very obviously completely irrelevant in a feedback thread for those players.

[Curve]

Really the mistake was my own in approving it for reactivation after so many years, without fully understanding the mechanical implications.

I really appriciate you saying this, IG. I, like the above poster, am surprised that it comes as a surprise that HiPS is/was broken. Never the less, you did what needed to be done for the betterment of the server.

If you took shadow mage to be a "pickpocket rogue/wizard" then you missed the entire point and lore of the class. At no point did any single person on the Dev team view it to be anything resembling that.

With the above being said I don't think its out of line to expect Arelith players to work within the mechanical confines that the DEVs set. That none of you guys foresaw "pickpocket rogue/wizard" does not mean that none will be played. In that vein it seems punitive that SD/WMs are treated differently than any other SD. They were simply making characters allowed within the rules you guys set.

In this type of online enviorment people are going to get their feelings hurt over changes, but it might behove the DEVs to further consider server rattling changes before they are put live. Otherwise you get this sentiment that is not so unfamiliar of late:

Please don't let SD become the new monk. I had to roll a beloved character because the incessant tinkering with monk became intolerable.

The word "rework" fills me with dread rather than excitement.

[Dr. B]

As someone above suggested, I like the idea of just changing HiPS to be less broken. Maybe an instant action called "Hide in Plain Sight" that confers a 99% concealment bonus that you lose when you attack, has a cooldown, and a finite duration.

[Xerah]

If you took shadow mage to be a "pickpocket rogue/wizard" then you missed the entire point and lore of the class. At no point did any single person on the Dev team view it to be anything resembling that.

With the above being said I don't think its out of line to expect Arelith players to work within the mechanical confines that the DEVs set. That none of you guys foresaw "pickpocket rogue/wizard" does not mean that none will be played. In that vein it seems punitive that SD/WMs are treated differently than any other SD. They were simply making characters allowed within the rules you guys set.

In this type of online enviorment people are going to get their feelings hurt over changes, but it might behove the DEVs to further consider server rattling changes before they are put live. Otherwise you get this sentiment that is not so unfamiliar of late:

Please don't let SD become the new monk. I had to roll a beloved character because the incessant tinkering with monk became intolerable.

The word "rework" fills me with dread rather than excitement.

I never said that it wouldn't be played that way, but there has to be some understanding from the player that they are going to take the knowledge of what the class is and do something with it, rather than completely ignore that Shar has anything to do with it.

In regards to WM/SD, you have somehow attributed this as us trying to push those players. The rebuilds were an effort to get the most amount of people who were realistically affected by this, which includes anyone with SD levels or those with dodge and mobility (this has the effect of hitting some people that might not be affected by this at all). As it is, those with SD levels get the relevel regardless. So, your point is kind of moot here.

Frankly, that is just a fundamental disagreement with methods to balance a game. I think, as a whole, the Monk changes were one of the better approaches to class changes that we've had. There was a massive massive power imbalance with them, the first adjustments went a bit too far, so further adjustments were needed. Much of subsequent changes have followed this approach of trying to do less and fine-tune it after observations in live performance. I think it's pretty rude to call this "incessant tinkering" as I think monk is in a (mostly) good place now.

I wouldn't change anything with that approach; it's also a very typical approach my almost every game when it comes to balance. To make only one change and be stuck with it would be doing a real disservice to the server to believe that we'll get things right 100% of the time on the first shot.

These changes were considered and a lot of time was spent discussing them with an overall plan of what to do about it. It's pretty dismissive to suggest it hasn't. We are fully aware that people were going to be unhappy with this change. There is a good deal of people that never want any changes, good or bad, to hit them but that's not the environment that Arelith is in.

[Scylon]

I'm starting to think there needs to be a thing when you log into the server about classes that stipulates "can and will change" and "tuff luck if you don't like it". If I disagree with a change to a class, I'll tell ya via feedback and I do, however outside that people need to get over it.

People complain, threaten to leave, then roll the new meta to stay king.

[Curve]

I understand you and IG are different people, but these two statements seem to undermine one another.

Really the mistake was my own in approving it for reactivation after so many years, without fully understanding the mechanical implications.

and...

I wouldn't change anything with that approach; it's also a very typical approach my almost every game when it comes to balance. To make only one change and be stuck with it would be doing a real disservice to the server to believe that we'll get things right 100% of the time on the first shot.

...

Frankly, that is just a fundamental disagreement with methods to balance a game. I think, as a whole, the Monk changes were one of the better approaches to class changes that we've had. There was a massive massive power imbalance with them, the first adjustments went a bit too far, so further adjustments were needed. Much of subsequent changes have followed this approach of trying to do less and fine-tune it after observations in live performance.

I would be more inclined to agree with your methods if we were playing DOTA or another game where the investment was less severe in terms of time. That being said, I 100% agree with this change. I just don't think that you can so easily dismiss people's concerns as rude or ill informed. Not everyone is able to put together a succinct argument over this medium.

I think it's pretty rude to call this "incessant tinkering" as I think monk is in a (mostly) good place now.

I don't know the intention of the poster who said this. I certainly have no intention towards maligning anyone or being rude here. I genuinely care for Arelith as I believe you do.

rather than completely ignore that Shar has anything to do with it.

I missed anyone saying that Shar should be ignored. I do not think that anyone is saying that should happen. I do know that the DEV team opened up Shadow Mage to Gods other than Shar. Is that what you mean? Otherwise, I do not see why a "pickpocket rogue/wizard" can not also be a Sharran. There are many ways to RP worshipping Shar.

At the end of the day what needed to be done was done. I assume good intentions out of all the staff, you included.

[Xerah]

I understand you and IG are different people, but these two statements seem to undermine one another.

Really the mistake was my own in approving it for reactivation after so many years, without fully understanding the mechanical implications.

and...

I wouldn't change anything with that approach; it's also a very typical approach my almost every game when it comes to balance. To make only one change and be stuck with it would be doing a real disservice to the server to believe that we'll get things right 100% of the time on the first shot.

...

I don't see how this is at odds at all. I'm talking about the monk update and he's talking about HiPS. They also align. I don't really understand what issues you're highlighting here. The team who's heading up these changes has had this on the chopping block for over a year (and since 2015 apparently)

I am basing that comment about rudeness based on previous interactions that came during those monk changes.

Saying "shadow mage is a pickpocket rogue/wizard" isn't really what using the shadow weave is about. Regardless if you have to follow Shar or not, the Shadow Weave is created by her and her domain.

[SilverSnake]

If Shadow Wave gets Evocations on top of the ''shady replacers'' (darkbolt which is easily one of the best evocation spells) then what's the point of not being a shadowdancer? This really feels ( at least to me as i cannot claim to be the beyond and all, not to mention its easy to see many disagree with my opinions here ) like it made the non-path mage quite redundant. Now as a let's say a Shadow Wave Palemaster i will be able to use Issacs and high Dc Death Magic on top. While also having the acces to an already great evocation spell such as the darkbolt which is arguably better than Issac's in the first place.

[Aren]

If Shadow Wave gets Evocations on top of the ''shady replacers'' (darkbolt which is easily one of the best evocation spells) then what's the point of not being a shadowdancer? This really feels ( at least to me as i cannot claim to be the beyond and all, not to mention its easy to see many disagree with my opinions here ) like it made the non-path mage quite redundant. Now as a let's say a Shadow Wave Palemaster i will be able to use Issacs and high Dc Death Magic on top. While also having the acces to an already great evocation spell such as the darkbolt which is arguably better than Issac's in the first place.

Your CL for Isaacs' on a shadow weave palemaster would be (assuming you do "Ye olde SM 11, PM 16, bard/ranger 3 dip"):
Wiz CL: 11
PM CL: 8
Ranger CL: 0
- CL for evocation spells: -6

Total CL for Isaacs: 13.

I hope I don't have to explain why that is problematic.

[JoeKickAss]

Saying "shadow mage is a pickpocket rogue/wizard" isn't really what using the shadow weave is about. Regardless if you have to follow Shar or not, the Shadow Weave is created by her and her domain.

It doesnt really matter what you think the Shadow Weave was created for. I mean why were shadowmage told to cast darkness, encouraged to dip an epic rogue class and given hips if not to be cloak and dagger? You would have to be incredibly naive not to think players would interpret that as a reason to make cloak and dagger mages.

To then turn around and say "they are going to be considerably less stealthy, but as compensation for making them less stealthy you can now create a light show with evocation spells" is a logical mess. Take away hips, give them some other tool within their meta. If you had to ban fighters from using shields for some mechanical reason, you would not let them use bardsongs badly to compensate.

If your argument is shadowmage has no meta other than its lore, then devs should just say that *clearly*.

[Ninjimmy]

... Do Shadow Mages not get GSanc? Surely you just cast that rather than HiPS, it does the same thing but without the cheesy rules exploits. I mean, flavour that how you want, if the RP was "I can go invisible and you can't see me at all ever" then it's just jonesing after some god-moding, replacing it with "I am good at stealth because I trained at it and have spells that re-inforce that" seems fairly fair?

I asked in the Discord yesterday but can't remember seeing a reply, would people who are defending HiPS (or rather, insisting their build still needs it) rather TS was un-nerfed so it lasts for a longer time and makes it PvP counterable?

EDIT: Also, as a Wiz/Rogue who's reasonably sub-opt because I still have UMD ranks and haven't done a relevel, I get by just fine with stealthy shenanigans without HiPS.

[JoeKickAss]

... Do Shadow Mages not get GSanc?

As far as I know, shadowmages now get -6 CL on transmutation, and are generally encouraged, at least before these changes, not to cast transmutation spells.

[Ninjimmy]

... Do Shadow Mages not get GSanc?

As far as I know, shadowmages get -6 CL on transmutation, and are generally encouraged, at least before these changes, not to cast transmutation spells.

I believe Drowboy above said the -6 CL on transmutation isn't included any more? I'd assumed with that off the table, they'd get back on the Gsanc train.

[JoeKickAss]

they'd get back on the Gsanc train.

Or you would just make a normal wizard or sorc and do the same thing.

[Might-N-Magic]

Just because cancelling someone's action queues is being done defensively rather than offensively doesn't mean it's any less abusable.

Dev: *complains about HiPS*
Meanwhile...
Timestop and Greater Santuary: *exists*

[godhand-]

Dev: *complains about HiPS*
Meanwhile...
Timestop and Greater Santuary: *exists*

Perhaps HIPs gets the same 4 minute cooldown Timestop and Greater Sanctuary get?

[godhand-]

alternatively, un-nerf true seeing and your hide in plain site problem seems solveable.

[Ninjimmy]

I mean, that was my question too - would people still be so hungry for HiPS if TS was un-nerfed.

[Ninjimmy]

they'd get back on the Gsanc train.

Or you would just make a normal wizard or sorc and do the same thing.

Sure but like... people are saying they like the Shadow Mage RP and I assume there are other class features beyond HiPS? Haven't looked into it too much to be honest but I'm assuming there's toys beyond the boosted CLs to some schools.

[Kishti]

So when can we expect a complete rework of SD to go live?

[Nitro]

Sure but like... people are saying they like the Shadow Mage RP and I assume there are other class features beyond HiPS? Haven't looked into it too much to be honest but I'm assuming there's toys beyond the boosted CLs to some schools.

Nope.

Honestly with the reintroduction of evo spells they're still a straight upgrade to wizards. Against most targets they can now burst just as hard as a regular wizard, and against targets with SR they can still drop epic evocations and boosted DC spells.

[Fargreze]

So you're a mage with max-scaled (slightly more resistable) IGMS, hellball, and gruin access, that also has +2 DC and CL to half the spellbook. If you genuinely think losing HIPS makes this unplayable, you might want to reexamine your reliance on cheap exploits.

Yes, now they have only cheap DC save or die spells to rely on. Unfortunately, these are intentionally part of the game.

Any character with no pre-epic levels in a class with Will as the primary saving throw sits at 11 Will (6 pre-epic, 5 epic) at level 30, before the Wisdom stat modifier and gear. The limit on increases to saving throws via geared unisave, spellcraft, and spell effects is 20, making the absolute theoretical maximum for many characters (Wisdom included) just over 30. Even Divine Champion's sacred defense unisaves are subject to this cap. Gearing can take a long time, substantial wealth, and more than a little game knowledge to do properly. Most builds have potions, not reliable Will saves. The same goes for any non-dex build with few or no pre-epic levels in a reflex-primary class.

Saves feats and paladin/bg saves are exceptions to 20 cap, but not affordable by most builds (or they define the build outright, both in alignment and Charisma stats). Most posted builds do not have sample gear sheets, so how many players can not only appreciate but achieve good saves? Even divines are vulnerable for ages of gameplay.

Did I see DC estimates in the low-mid forties earlier in this thread? Is a 60% chance for your instant death spell (versus a thoroughly geared fighter) to succeed too low? What if it's just 95%, versus a moderately geared opponent on his 20 Will - this is much more common than you might think. Clarity has a cooldown, too. Hmmm. I have seen as many as four Wail of the Banshee's cast following one timestop very early in a fight. Is that skill?

Say you're an Evocation-focused caster (the specialist Wizard update just increased the maximum DC by 1): once you breach Freedom of Movement (who is it that said four potions shut off Shadowmage and their kin? do mages open with anything but Mords?), your opponent's option versus, say, Bigby 6, is to make the reflex save or sit in knockdown for about 26 rounds. Not good enough?

Many dexers will be fine against that save, sure, because Dex modifier is added to reflex. They can even go for the combined saves power of dex/div (but look at the player census, just 14 rogue/fighter/BG's, and a handful of brycers (fighter/divine/rogue)). What about your average strengther? What about other mages?

As Magistrasa said, DC casts are not really strategic; they are even more of a shotgun option than the much-hated Barb/WM rage and charge, and are just win buttons versus most of the server in spontaneous conflict. Even in premeditated conflict, you are counting on your opponent not having put in enough hours of grinding and gambling gold away into the basin, or cheesing them out when immunities either lapse or get breached. DC spells are horrible. For me, HiPS was the least irritating thing about Shadowmage.

[kinginyellow]

I'm not that upset about the change to HIPS. I have a strength shadowdancer build that is definitely off-meta but works and doesn't really rely on hips at all, so much as the rest of the abilities the class has. So even if HIPS was gone tomorrow, that wouldn't really be an issue for me.

What is an issue is that I made this character two months ago with a Major award and now I'm having to look at the prospect of rolling them because the class that makes the bulk of the character is getting a rework that -might- make it completely unplayable. I can't rebuild it without SD levels either because the stats are geared towards having that SD multiclass. (Knight/SD and Knight/Blackguard need different stats. Knight/Blackguard needs Charisma for div might/Shield.)

This is like the third time in a year that I might have to get rid of a character altogether because the niche I'm playing in gets changed in a way the character I'm playing becomes significantly worse, so I guess my position is the same as someone earlier in the thread. I don't see these changes with excitement because I don't want to have to grind to 30 again, I don't want to have to grind gold to get my gear again, and I don't want to waste a Major (that I didn't farm for because I hate farming) because of class changes that are completely out of my control.

But such is life, I guess. Here's hoping that my build doesn't become complete trash with the upcoming class rework.