HIPS (SM & SD)

[Ninjimmy]

I mean... what RP elements of HiPS can you not emulate with high stealth skill?

Cos the only thing I can think of is the vanishing mid fight to flat-foot an opponent/break their cast and flatfoot them?

[UilliamNebel]

I mean... what RP elements of HiPS can you not emulate with high stealth skill?

Cos the only thing I can think of is the vanishing mid fight to flat-foot an opponent/break their cast and flatfoot them?

And thus, why if we are being honest, it is a PvP issue. Not an issue with how the engine has the ability set up per say in hard code. But how using that in exploit is an issue.

[Ninjimmy]

And thus, why if we are being honest, it is a PvP issue. Not an issue with how the engine has the ability set up per say in hard code. But how using that in exploit is an issue.

... I mean, yeah, but that's an argument TO remove HiPS? I thought you were pro-keeping it?

[UilliamNebel]

... I mean, yeah, but that's an argument TO remove HiPS? I thought you were pro-keeping it?

I am for keeping it. On the basis that it is only being removed for PvP's benefit, because those who engage do not want to self regulate. If another player cheezes, than no longer engage with them IC, especially in PvP. I think it is a loss for the play experience of many more to remove it, and detriment to Arelith's immersion to take HiPS out, as for RP and PvE purposes it has hardly risen to the level of so broken a mechanic as to demand relevel for multiple classes.

If it removed, and that is the final word, I just want it done honestly, it was removed for PvPer's sake, an externality for everyone else, because that group was loudest to the dev team.

[Anomandaris]

I think there are probably ways to implement a non-broken HIPS mechanic. I also think that implementing rules that try to stop people who are already breaking rules is a little silly.

HIPS is fine to remove I guess, but it’s totally fine to leave it in as well. People saying it has a demonstrably negative effect on the quality of life on the server to have ppl with HIPS running around are just using theoretical scenarios (which are legitimate on paper and maybe happen occasionally) to make it out to be a much bigger deal than it is in practice. It does however have a demonstrably negative effect on many peoples’ experiences to ruin the builds of PCs that they’ve invested a lot of time into. I don’t see rp quality better all the sudden or less salty pvp or less no rp killing happening because HIPS is gone.. come on.

Someone abused a mechanic? Report them. Someone griefing... see previous comment. Otherwise leave it alone and let ppl have weird stuff that makes their PC unique and exciting.

The fact it worked without a check is stupid. I think that could be changed, if not then what do I know. That’s the problem not the idea of the skill itself. It’s a bug/design flaw in NWN not a cancerous ability on principle.

[Nitro]

... I mean, yeah, but that's an argument TO remove HiPS? I thought you were pro-keeping it?

I am for keeping it. On the basis that it is only being removed for PvP's benefit, because those who engage do not want to self regulate. If another player cheezes, than no longer engage with them IC, especially in PvP. I think it is a loss for the play experience of many more to remove it, and detriment to Arelith's immersion to take HiPS out, as for RP and PvE purposes it has hardly risen to the level of so broken a mechanic as to demand relevel for multiple classes.

If it removed, and that is the final word, I just want it done honestly, it was removed for PvPer's sake, an externality for everyone else, because that group was loudest to the dev team.

You're not making any sense. You're advocating ignoring people who do a thing, an actual detriment to RP, rather than just removing the exploitative thing, something that isn't detrimental to RP.

Of course a lot of people are going to be at the detriment to have it removed, it's grossly overpowered. If peoples enjoyment ruled balance then we might as well throw the idea of balance out the window and give everyone access to a DM client.

[Anomandaris]

... I mean, yeah, but that's an argument TO remove HiPS? I thought you were pro-keeping it?

I am for keeping it. On the basis that it is only being removed for PvP's benefit, because those who engage do not want to self regulate. If another player cheezes, than no longer engage with them IC, especially in PvP. I think it is a loss for the play experience of many more to remove it, and detriment to Arelith's immersion to take HiPS out, as for RP and PvE purposes it has hardly risen to the level of so broken a mechanic as to demand relevel for multiple classes.

If it removed, and that is the final word, I just want it done honestly, it was removed for PvPer's sake, an externality for everyone else, because that group was loudest to the dev team.

You're not making any sense. You're advocating ignoring people who do a thing, an actual detriment to RP, rather than just removing the exploitative thing, something that isn't detrimental to RP.

Of course a lot of people are going to be at the detriment to have it removed, it's grossly overpowered. If peoples enjoyment ruled balance then we might as well throw the idea of balance out the window and give everyone access to a DM client.

I think you're gonna struggle to find any meaningful way to prove it's a systemic problem. A DM earlier said there were no complaints on the matter. Now that doesn't mean it's not a problem, but it's a partial indication. The work is done often in the effort of achieving "theoretical" balance on paper, when sometimes while it makes sense, it's not actually solving a meaningful problem. The things that actually cause players to quit and leave the server have literally nothing to do with HIPS. They have to do with OOC conflict, toxicity, rule breaks, abuse, perceived slights and so on and so on.

I'm not saying throw balance out the window, but it's not this utopian state where everyone sigh a collective relief and systematically boosts server happiness and stops poor behavior. I don't think we even have a consensus on what "balance" means. The word gets thrown around a lot but have we even defined our terms or goal? IMO "balance" generally means the balance of a thing when wielded at it's peak potential, by a 5% player who knows how to use it, build around it and can cause serious damage with it. Personally I think it's the most 'useful' definition for the servers goals as I understand them, but in practice it's pretty terrible given how those changes end up affecting the other 95%.

This kind of player and behavior is NOT representative of a lot of the community at large. So you've got a ton of ppl "using" HIPS and a few people "abusing" HIPS. Meanwhile "balance" is preventing the abuse or overuse of something for a niche group while taking away a lot of fun for people who weren't abusing it.

To actually have this conversation and not just all be throwing around baseless opinion, we'd need hard data. How many PvP events per PC on average over x time. How many of those involve HIPSers vs. other classes. Then take a qualitative look at whether there's a lower "quality" score in those interactions or a perceived frustration due to HIPS utilization in those encounters. But this isn't a fortune 50 company and these aren't important problems to throw serious resources at answering with certainty.

THAT is why I generally say it's safer to leave stuff alone and enforce the rules rather than make a bunch of changes that dishearten people who are invested in the characters they've made. It's a game, not a competitive tournament with prize money. It's ok if some HIPSer swoops in and murders you ONE time, it really is. If you're sitting there telling me this happens weekly, daily, monthly even I got three things to say.
1) report it if it's the same people or group
2) consider how you got into that mess over and over while most people don't
3) if 1 & 2 aren't a factor, then HIPSers are indeed a plague on the community and must be stopped.

[UilliamNebel]

, rather than just removing the exploitative thing, something that isn't detrimental to RP.

That is an assertion however.

I'd say, from all the use case presented on it, it ties solely back to what appears to be for a vocal minorities detriment, and is a change with far greater externality across a lot more players.

[mjones3]

Lets stick to feedback on how the change is effecting the class rather than arguing on speculations as to why it was removed or if it was necessary. The reasons were clearly stated by Garrbear here and Irongron here.

[godhand-]

on top of my previous alternatives posted to the hips dilemma - i'd also like to post one more thing, at the risk of sounding trolly and unhelpful, of which i'm trying not to be.... And an army of people getting upset and telling me i'm wrong in every possible way.

Get good. Unfortunately having a great mechanical build doesn't account for being good at playing the game reactively and strategically.

Worried your action queue will get cancelled as a caster? Learn to ground target. Most of your spells are AOE at high level, so why are you clicking your enemy with them?
"But the enemy is running!" - If the enemy is running. don't stand still and pray for them not to reach you.... MOVE AS WELL, Movement is your friend.
after playing countless casters over the years i have to ask, why do you have a long action queue in the first place? Everything happens VERY QUICKLY in this game.... Alot can happen in a single round (6 seconds). If you've queued up 6 spells thats 18 seconds of combat in which you're assuming is going to go exactly how you planned it.
You should be queueing three spells at most. - think of an OODA loop. Observe, Orient, Decide, Act. That gives you 10 seconds (haste assumed) while your 3 spells cast to determine what you're doing next.

Action queue as not a caster? I don't think as much of an issue.
"But flat footed! AC!" - Why are you standing like a stunned mullet after they have just disengaged combat to hips and then dissapeared? This is your time to REACT! Remember they're stealthed, so if they want to hunt you down they're going to move slower than you are. MOVE, reposition, true seeing scroll.

Know your enemy - Have you examined your enemy to understand what your up against? High Strength, Dex etc?
These can be a good indicator of how you should proceed with a battle before it even starts....

Not everything needs a mechanical solution - some of the solutions require learning how to play the game.

[ReverentBlade]

The above has it locked down.

[ReverentBlade]

I assume that Entangle's action queue nonsense is now a high priority to fix.

[Xerah]

Given that entangle is not an instant cast with no counter, they aren't remotely similar. You are aware of this.

Bringing up in this manner is not being constructive so please refrain and leave this thread for actual feedback.

[Nitro]

on top of my previous alternatives posted to the hips dilemma - i'd also like to post one more thing, at the risk of sounding trolly and unhelpful, of which i'm trying not to be.... And an army of people getting upset and telling me i'm wrong in every possible way.

Get good. Unfortunately having a great mechanical build doesn't account for being good at playing the game reactively and strategically.

Worried your action queue will get cancelled as a caster? Learn to ground target. Most of your spells are AOE at high level, so why are you clicking your enemy with them?
"But the enemy is running!" - If the enemy is running. don't stand still and pray for them not to reach you.... MOVE AS WELL, Movement is your friend.
after playing countless casters over the years i have to ask, why do you have a long action queue in the first place? Everything happens VERY QUICKLY in this game.... Alot can happen in a single round (6 seconds). If you've queued up 6 spells thats 18 seconds of combat in which you're assuming is going to go exactly how you planned it.
You should be queueing three spells at most. - think of an OODA loop. Observe, Orient, Decide, Act. That gives you 10 seconds (haste assumed) while your 3 spells cast to determine what you're doing next.

Action queue as not a caster? I don't think as much of an issue.
"But flat footed! AC!" - Why are you standing like a stunned mullet after they have just disengaged combat to hips and then dissapeared? This is your time to REACT! Remember they're stealthed, so if they want to hunt you down they're going to move slower than you are. MOVE, reposition, true seeing scroll.

Know your enemy - Have you examined your enemy to understand what your up against? High Strength, Dex etc?
These can be a good indicator of how you should proceed with a battle before it even starts....

Not everything needs a mechanical solution - some of the solutions require learning how to play the game.

You know, strip out the parts about reacting to HiPS and your entire post is an excellent argument for keeping it removed. Git gud, learn to play the game instead of relying on a busted crutch mechanic.

[mjones3]

"But flat footed! AC!" - Why are you standing like a stunned mullet after they have just disengaged combat to hips and then dissapeared? This is your time to REACT! Remember they're stealthed, so if they want to hunt you down they're going to move slower than you are. MOVE, reposition, true seeing scroll.

You are discounting the fact that HiPS completely and utterly ignores initiative order. Everything else has its place in the action order but stealth activation. There is no way to react that doesn't rely on waiting at least 4-6 seconds for them to decide what they are doing, and all of that is IF you have the ability to spot them, to use a scroll will usually take 7-12 seconds because you always start the next action at the end of the current round.

[Drowboy]

"Get good so I can keep relying on a known engine exploit" is galaxy level

Since this isn't getting reverted and shadowmage is currently a straight upgrade to normal mage, can we maybe discuss what direction SDs might be going?

[Anomandaris]

"Get good so I can keep relying on a known engine exploit" is galaxy level

Since this isn't getting reverted and shadowmage is currently a straight upgrade to normal mage, can we maybe discuss what direction SDs might be going?

When I think about what I'd have to see from SD to make it worth taking as opposed to 24/6 rogue/fighter I think it'd have to be pretty darn interesting.

-Buff shadow evade AC
-Raise shadow daze DC scaling
-Make Shadow more useful in PvP
-Add ms bonus to the per lvl hide bonus
-bluff/perform boost when in low lit areas/darkness
-AB/AC boost when low lit areas/darkness

It'd also be great to get some more mobility options like a shadow themed dimension door. That could set up nicely with swapping locations on your shadow.

For now I won't be playing the class, that's for sure.

[Drowboy]

I've always wanted to see a sort of "shadow dies you get buffs" effect on them, maybe with a GW1-style death nova when the shadow dies. Maybe a higher level ability to just sacrifice it for buffs on purpose.

[Kuma]

I am for keeping it. On the basis that it is only being removed for PvP's benefit, because those who engage do not want to self regulate. If another player cheezes, than no longer engage with them IC, especially in PvP. I think it is a loss for the play experience of many more to remove it, and detriment to Arelith's immersion to take HiPS out, as for RP and PvE purposes it has hardly risen to the level of so broken a mechanic as to demand relevel for multiple classes.

self regulation has never been the arelith community's strong suit

furthermore, "i want it because its neat even though it's being abused wildly in ways that can't be punished without video evidence in nebulous ways that are difficult to police even with active dms" is not a good reason to keep, well, any mechanic.

[LIAR LIAR]

I will note quite heartily that HiPS has never, ever been what "alone" made Shadow Mage good. I could happily take enchantment and be the most unreasonably strong pvp bot on the server without HiPS which Ive seen in recent engagements is incredibly abusable. It makes for a build some builds are literally incapable of dealing with till level 30 while some guy spams spells and repeatedly summons more mummies and is never, ever forced to make himself vulnerable to you because you can't deal with stealth.

Combine the fact they have their haste which is cast a shorter time than your wand, lasts longer, and their invisibility which lasts longer and casts faster, and they didn't even need HiPS in the first place but it sure made them impossible to touch the times you did get near them at all.

Edit: I wanted to address a specific point just because I'm seeing some 'get good' talk going on in the thread.

One could always turn invisable and then sneak or even run around a corner before sneaking.

If your whole class was based on one "Lemme just cancel that action queue you have there" button and it's completely unviable to you without it then your doing your class a diservice. Perhaps take a look at your class and the tactics you use with it again, there's plenty for a illusion and enchantment based mage to do.

-Signed
A person who played an illusion/enchantment mage with stealth ranks.

I dont think I pvped without see invisibility in more than a year. I play mundanes.

I literally had to deal with a PvP that went so long buffs were fading. With the new, longer durations in place. Literally couldn't do anything because four people's builds collectively weren't up to the task of somehow already being hasted and on the way to his face the instant the guy unstealthed then vanished again. The only option was to walk away from the endless mummy summons and reusing HiPS. After killing a literal dozen, we walked away because the fight was completely pointless to keep trying against.

There isn't a lack of being good enough in this scenario. It's not having the completely ridiculous investment in lore for Word of Faith scrolls and a pile of True Seeing scrolls to burn. Just while I'm here, lore changes, worst choice ever made on the server. Time Stop reversion shouldn't have happened with lore as it is. Mages are in the strongest position they've ever been in and it's insane how much of an advantage that is.

[Anomandaris]

I will note quite heartily that HiPS has never, ever been what "alone" made Shadow Mage good. I could happily take enchantment and be the most unreasonably strong pvp bot on the server without HiPS which Ive seen in recent engagements is incredibly abusable. It makes for a build some builds are literally incapable of dealing with till level 30 while some guy spams spells and repeatedly summons more mummies and is never, ever forced to make himself vulnerable to you because you can't deal with stealth.

Combine the fact they have their haste which is cast a shorter time than your wand, lasts longer, and their invisibility which lasts longer and casts faster, and they didn't even need HiPS in the first place but it sure made them impossible to touch the times you did get near them at all.

Edit: I wanted to address a specific point just because I'm seeing some 'get good' talk going on in the thread.

One could always turn invisable and then sneak or even run around a corner before sneaking.

If your whole class was based on one "Lemme just cancel that action queue you have there" button and it's completely unviable to you without it then your doing your class a diservice. Perhaps take a look at your class and the tactics you use with it again, there's plenty for a illusion and enchantment based mage to do.

-Signed
A person who played an illusion/enchantment mage with stealth ranks.

I dont think I pvped without see invisibility in more than a year. I play mundanes.

I literally had to deal with a PvP that went so long buffs were fading. With the new, longer durations in place. Literally couldn't do anything because four people's builds collectively weren't up to the task of somehow already being hasted and on the way to his face the instant the guy unstealthed then vanished again. The only option was to walk away from the endless mummy summons and reusing HiPS. After killing a literal dozen, we walked away because the fight was completely pointless to keep trying against.

There isn't a lack of being good enough in this scenario. It's not having the completely ridiculous investment in lore for Word of Faith scrolls and a pile of True Seeing scrolls to burn. Just while I'm here, lore changes, worst choice ever made on the server. Time Stop reversion shouldn't have happened with lore as it is. Mages are in the strongest position they've ever been in and it's insane how much of an advantage that is.

Generally speaking, ignore the mummies kill the summoner. There's a reasons vamps are the go-to in PvP. It's unlikely you'll be able to fight a lvl 30 when you're build isn't finished so don't feel bad. It sounds like you were just too low of a level for this fight so the mummies were a direct threat which is the problem.

Enchantment is really not that scary given mind immunity is so readily accessible and you can pray out of mind control states. You definitely couldn't take enchantment and be the most powerful PvP bot. It's pretty underwhelming against most builds out there. Generally speaking if you're relying on DC casting you need to be able to affect all 3 saves (for, will & reflex) because most people will have 1-3 of them in an untouchable range. Enchantment is in fact considered one of the weakest schools, though does ok on SM with the higher DCs and paired with illusion magic.

[Ninjimmy]

, rather than just removing the exploitative thing, something that isn't detrimental to RP.

That is an assertion however.

I'd say, from all the use case presented on it, it ties solely back to what appears to be for a vocal minorities detriment, and is a change with far greater externality across a lot more players.

I am... so baffled by your stance and your assertion it's only down to a vocal minority.

HiPS is a literally broken mechanic in the sense that it breaks a part of the game - if you toggle it on in combat the action queue is stopped for whoever or whatever is targeting you and they become flat-footed and exposed for at least a round since HiPS activation ALSO ignores initiative.

This applies to PvP, PvE, RP - all aspects of the game, it's an instant, undetectable (unless you have precognition and drop a TS scroll with the same click to apply stealth) invisibility.

The PVE stuff is being mostly slid over because, well, people exploit many other far more obvious A.I and script limitations and it's largely victimless but make no mistake, this IS a PVE issue as well. And the RP elements, if your stealth is maxed out you can still use the equivalent to HiPS to sneak your way through things or stand in place while hidden. You just have a chance of someone else spotting you rather than having it be close to undetectable.

If your RP requires that you have an ability that nobody can counter and gives you a huge advantage for just investing a few levels then, respectfully, you need a better concept.

[godhand-]

crazy idea: Nerf ultravision - make it rounds/level. - I expect to cop a lot of flak for this suggestion but it makes darkness sneak more viable as a replacement to hips, it requires some "preparation" to be used and thus is no longer "instant button press disengage".

[Shrouded Wanderer]

crazy idea: Nerf ultravision - make it rounds/level. - I expect to cop a lot of flak for this suggestion but it makes darkness sneak more viable as a replacement to hips, it requires some "preparation" to be used and thus is no longer "instant button press disengage".

Or give SM a minor darkness ability,

All you need is an area to break LoS, something that is an instant activate, 10 minute CD, cast on self Darkness with a small range that allows the caster to do a "corner sneak"

[Archnon]

I would really love to see Shadowdancer get a really small spell book based on the Shadow line of spells. Nothing too strong, ala the ranger spell book but keyed on intelligence as a casting stat. So like, the invisibility line, Shadow conjuration line, Maybe Shadow Evocation from the wizards spell book as a 4th level and darkness and camoflage spells. Spot/hearing and invisibility coutners. Something to give you a little more versatility. Toss in Cat's and Foxes as well. Give you some alternatives to hips that require a turn of casting.