HIPS (SM & SD)

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magistrasa
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Re: HIPS (SM & SD)

Post by magistrasa » Wed Mar 10, 2021 4:09 pm

Archnon wrote:
Wed Mar 10, 2021 3:53 pm
I would really love to see Shadowdancer get a really small spell book based on the Shadow line of spells. Nothing too strong, ala the ranger spell book but keyed on intelligence as a casting stat. So like, the invisibility line, Shadow conjuration line, Maybe Shadow Evocation from the wizards spell book as a 4th level and darkness and camoflage spells. Spot/hearing and invisibility coutners. Something to give you a little more versatility. Toss in Cat's and Foxes as well. Give you some alternatives to hips that require a turn of casting.
I think this goes a bit too far - I believe SD should not get a spellbook, nor remotely resemble spellcasting classes - but something from here that I do like is giving them Darkness on a cooldown, since that's super useful for them as sneak-attackers, and it's very thematic seeing as how their whole "thing" is making shadows manifest. I always take the Gift of Darkness on my Shadowdancer characters for basically that reason. The only part of this idea I don't like is, well, Assassins also get that ability, and I admittedly prefer my classes to have a little more distinction.

As an aside, maybe instead of giving Shadow Mages access to evocation like they currently have been granted, what if they could just infini-cast the Shadow Conjuration line of spells (and also, probably, Darkness)? Maybe it's something you unlock at various levels. Darkness infini-cast is unlocked at level 15, Shadow Conjuration is unlocked at level 20, Shadow Evocation is at 25, and Greater Shadow Conjuration is unlocked as a capstone at level 30.

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Re: HIPS (SM & SD)

Post by Bunnysmack » Wed Mar 10, 2021 4:29 pm

magistrasa wrote:
Wed Mar 10, 2021 4:09 pm
As an aside, maybe instead of giving Shadow Mages access to evocation like they currently have been granted, what if they could just infini-cast the Shadow Conjuration line of spells (and also, probably, Darkness)? Maybe it's something you unlock at various levels. Darkness infini-cast is unlocked at level 15, Shadow Conjuration is unlocked at level 20, Shadow Evocation is at 25, and Greater Shadow Conjuration is unlocked as a capstone at level 30.
EDIT: Change of mind with regards to multiple parts of my reply on this. I think that if evocation was removed, SM definitely deserves something in return, but infini spells would be too good. I think giving them spell-like abilities on cooldowns for various key shadow-spells would be pretty cool though. That would actually grant them quite a few extra spells, especially if all the cooldowns were separately ticked. If Shadow Plague and Greater Shadow Evocation were included at higher levels, they would have some pretty potent damage sources that they would never have to even make space for in their spell books.
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Re: HIPS (SM & SD)

Post by Scurvy Cur » Wed Mar 10, 2021 5:44 pm

godhand- wrote:
Wed Mar 10, 2021 1:16 am
Some pretty self-congratulatory stuff, and a suggestion that others should get good.
As someone who has played a lot of casters and stealthers and stealth casters, nearly all of them before HiPS was even re-enabled on the server, I can promise you that HiPS is not an integral part of the functionality of any archetype. You can build an effective stealther, an effective caster, and an effective stealth caster without HiPS.

If you are having trouble coping without, I have some cordial advice:
godhand- wrote:
Wed Mar 10, 2021 1:16 am
Get good. Unfortunately having a great mechanical build doesn't account for being good at playing the game reactively and strategically.
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Re: HIPS (SM & SD)

Post by Anomandaris » Wed Mar 10, 2021 5:49 pm

Bunnysmack wrote:
Wed Mar 10, 2021 4:29 pm
magistrasa wrote:
Wed Mar 10, 2021 4:09 pm
As an aside, maybe instead of giving Shadow Mages access to evocation like they currently have been granted, what if they could just infini-cast the Shadow Conjuration line of spells (and also, probably, Darkness)? Maybe it's something you unlock at various levels. Darkness infini-cast is unlocked at level 15, Shadow Conjuration is unlocked at level 20, Shadow Evocation is at 25, and Greater Shadow Conjuration is unlocked as a capstone at level 30.
EDIT: Change of mind with regards to multiple parts of my reply on this. I think that if evocation was removed, SM definitely deserves something in return, but infini spells would be too good. I think giving them spell-like abilities on cooldowns for various key shadow-spells would be pretty cool though. That would actually grant them quite a few extra spells, especially if all the cooldowns were separately ticked. If Shadow Plague and Greater Shadow Evocation were included at higher levels, they would have some pretty potent damage sources that they would never have to even make space for in their spell books.
Ehh I think infi cast is meh, never understood why people thought it was that powerful or played TF over normal sorc (except rp value). And it’s especially meh on a sorc that has slots up the wazoo anyway. It’d be nice for the wiz to allow for more options in their spell book but basically worthless for sorc unless it allowed for whole additional spells known which would be cool I guess. But generally you kind of have enough kit to be useful with spells known and slots/day in any PvE and pvp barring you get caught off guard (especially a sorc).

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Re: HIPS (SM & SD)

Post by LIAR LIAR » Wed Mar 10, 2021 6:03 pm

Jordenk wrote:
Wed Mar 10, 2021 7:31 am

Generally speaking, ignore the mummies kill the summoner. There's a reasons vamps are the go-to in PvP. It's unlikely you'll be able to fight a lvl 30 when you're build isn't finished so don't feel bad. It sounds like you were just too low of a level for this fight so the mummies were a direct threat which is the problem.

Enchantment is really not that scary given mind immunity is so readily accessible and you can pray out of mind control states. You definitely couldn't take enchantment and be the most powerful PvP bot. It's pretty underwhelming against most builds out there. Generally speaking if you're relying on DC casting you need to be able to affect all 3 saves (for, will & reflex) because most people will have 1-3 of them in an untouchable range. Enchantment is in fact considered one of the weakest schools, though does ok on SM with the higher DCs and paired with illusion magic.
You clearly didn’t read if your comment is “kill the summoner.” It was obviously the whole entire focus of my point that it wasn’t an option.

You’re also flagrantly wrong. It’s considered weak by people who don’t know what a combo is and live in an imaginary world where they come to every single pvp engagement pre mindblanked by the wizard that’s always there in that world.

And even if that world exists for a moment, so does the breach list :) You may want to do your homework on a few enchantment spells and the breach list. Mindfog is a hell of a spell.

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Re: HIPS (SM & SD)

Post by Anomandaris » Wed Mar 10, 2021 6:14 pm

LIAR LIAR wrote:
Wed Mar 10, 2021 6:03 pm
Jordenk wrote:
Wed Mar 10, 2021 7:31 am

Generally speaking, ignore the mummies kill the summoner. There's a reasons vamps are the go-to in PvP. It's unlikely you'll be able to fight a lvl 30 when you're build isn't finished so don't feel bad. It sounds like you were just too low of a level for this fight so the mummies were a direct threat which is the problem.

Enchantment is really not that scary given mind immunity is so readily accessible and you can pray out of mind control states. You definitely couldn't take enchantment and be the most powerful PvP bot. It's pretty underwhelming against most builds out there. Generally speaking if you're relying on DC casting you need to be able to affect all 3 saves (for, will & reflex) because most people will have 1-3 of them in an untouchable range. Enchantment is in fact considered one of the weakest schools, though does ok on SM with the higher DCs and paired with illusion magic.
You clearly didn’t read if your comment is “kill the summoner.” It was obviously the whole entire focus of my point that it wasn’t an option.

You’re also flagrantly wrong. It’s considered weak by people who don’t know what a combo is and live in an imaginary world where they come to every single pvp engagement pre mindblanked by the wizard that’s always there in that world.

And even if that world exists for a moment, so does the breach list :) You may want to do your homework on a few enchantment spells and the breach list. Mindfog is a hell of a spell.
I’ve played multiple enchantment foci’d SM’s and know the combos well. Have you played a shadowmage enchanter? Let alone several lvl 30
PCs wiz and sorc that use it in the kit? Trust me, lots of people have very good will saves. And yah, most ppl do get mind blank and shadow shield up right away or come into the conflict with it pre-buffed, scrolls are easy to get and smart people prepare for fights on their terms. I’ve gotten people with mind fog and weird combos as well as mass hold and somehow also figured out how to breach my opponents mind blank from time to time... You’re not saying anything revolutionary or shocking, just throwing some questionable assertions based on an experience you had (my guess) playing against a lvl 30 SM as an underpowered pc.

Mind fog is fantastic but pray is a thing too. Breaches take an action too. It’s not that mind blank comes up and it’s just gone, you need to stay away from them, breach it and then attack their will save again. You’re grossly over representing the power of mummies and enchantment school based on an encounter you had with what sounds like a pc that was just higher lvl than you. Against let’s say 20-30% of the server, enchantment can be super effective as part of a combo, against the rest, risky dice roll or worthless when compared to alternative choices of action.

The bluff bonus that was added IMO took enchantment from a cool mechanical tool that was very useful sometimes, not so useful a lot of times, to a really solid foci in a kit that has direct dmg or other non-will based avenues of attack. But I love Bluff/perform soo...

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Re: HIPS (SM & SD)

Post by Blossom » Wed Mar 10, 2021 8:37 pm

Currently playing a 16 int, (will be) 19 levels of SD and I'll be able to get Shadow Daze DC around 40 which is certainly a point where it is worth using but even a reduced 2 minute cooldown means it's only usable once a fight most of the time. I don't know if this would be an improvement or welcome or not but what if the length of the daze was reduced to say 2 rounds but it was usable every other round? I think it would be a great signature SD ability if it was usable more frequently (and on multiple opponents) as a disabler along the lines of stunning fist or KD.

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Re: HIPS (SM & SD)

Post by godhand- » Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:25 pm

mjones3 wrote:
Wed Mar 10, 2021 2:36 am
godhand- wrote:
Wed Mar 10, 2021 1:16 am
"But flat footed! AC!" - Why are you standing like a stunned mullet after they have just disengaged combat to hips and then dissapeared? This is your time to REACT! Remember they're stealthed, so if they want to hunt you down they're going to move slower than you are. MOVE, reposition, true seeing scroll.
You are discounting the fact that HiPS completely and utterly ignores initiative order. Everything else has its place in the action order but stealth activation. There is no way to react that doesn't rely on waiting at least 4-6 seconds for them to decide what they are doing, and all of that is IF you have the ability to spot them, to use a scroll will usually take 7-12 seconds because you always start the next action at the end of the current round.
You missed the key point - move. Moving has no initiative order and is an instant action you can reactively take.
They hips. Move, and not just 6 feet, Move a couple of tiles if possible, then use your scroll.
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Re: HIPS (SM & SD)

Post by garrbear758 » Thu Mar 11, 2021 1:51 am

godhand- wrote:
Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:25 pm
You missed the key point - move. Moving has no initiative order and is an instant action you can reactively take.
They hips. Move, and not just 6 feet, Move a couple of tiles if possible, then use your scroll.
Okay no. You're not going to ever be able to realistically move and get a scroll off faster than someone can press stealth and subsequently click on you. I've tried to be very hands off here and just listen to the feedback, but this is just very unrealistic.
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ReverentBlade
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Re: HIPS (SM & SD)

Post by ReverentBlade » Thu Mar 11, 2021 3:01 am

You can, actually, but its close and usually comes down to latency and how well the server is behaving. The SD has to cancel their own action queue, hit stealth, then click. I have thumb buttons on my mouse that let me do this very quickly, but it is not instant. You can't simply hit stealth while you're swinging, doesn't work. You have to flatfoot yourself for a split second, functionally.

If you know your opponent has HIPS, you start moving as soon as you see them start fading. The movement speed reduction of stealth means you can gain as much distance as the terrain allows *if* you managed the disengage. Doesn't apply to archers, obvs. There is certainly counterplay available to HIPS, that's why its on a timer.

I'm a sword SD, archers are another can of worms.

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Re: HIPS (SM & SD)

Post by garrbear758 » Thu Mar 11, 2021 3:21 am

ReverentBlade wrote:
Thu Mar 11, 2021 3:01 am
You can, actually, but its close and usually comes down to latency and how well the server is behaving. The SD has to cancel their own action queue, hit stealth, then click. I have thumb buttons on my mouse that let me do this very quickly, but it is not instant. You can't simply hit stealth while you're swinging, doesn't work. You have to flatfoot yourself for a split second, functionally.

If you know your opponent has HIPS, you start moving as soon as you see them start fading. The movement speed reduction of stealth means you can gain as much distance as the terrain allows *if* you managed the disengage. Doesn't apply to archers, obvs. There is certainly counterplay available to HIPS, that's why its on a timer.

I'm a sword SD, archers are another can of worms.
I know how it works. I explained this in the initial announcements. You can bind disengage to a hotkey and do it very, very quickly. Expecting even the best players on Arelith to be able to react to this consistently is not reality, much less the majority of the server.

This is not getting reverted. Feedback suggesting it is an okay or healthy mechanic to have is a waste of both of our time.
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Anomandaris
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Re: HIPS (SM & SD)

Post by Anomandaris » Thu Mar 11, 2021 4:09 am

garrbear758 wrote:
Thu Mar 11, 2021 3:21 am
ReverentBlade wrote:
Thu Mar 11, 2021 3:01 am
You can, actually, but its close and usually comes down to latency and how well the server is behaving. The SD has to cancel their own action queue, hit stealth, then click. I have thumb buttons on my mouse that let me do this very quickly, but it is not instant. You can't simply hit stealth while you're swinging, doesn't work. You have to flatfoot yourself for a split second, functionally.

If you know your opponent has HIPS, you start moving as soon as you see them start fading. The movement speed reduction of stealth means you can gain as much distance as the terrain allows *if* you managed the disengage. Doesn't apply to archers, obvs. There is certainly counterplay available to HIPS, that's why its on a timer.

I'm a sword SD, archers are another can of worms.
I know how it works. I explained this in the initial announcements. You can bind disengage to a hotkey and do it very, very quickly. Expecting even the best players on Arelith to be able to react to this consistently is not reality, much less the majority of the server.

This is not getting reverted. Feedback suggesting it is an okay or healthy mechanic to have is a waste of both of our time.
Out of curiosity, is it HIPS or "NWN's broken HIPS." Like if there was an actual skill check as a pre-requisite to break line of sight etc would that be different? A lot of the justification seems to be that it's simply a mechanical exploit due to a garbage implementation. Would HIPS be fine if that weren't the case?

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Re: HIPS (SM & SD)

Post by ReverentBlade » Thu Mar 11, 2021 4:11 am

Its the implementation. I'd love to see it fixed or reimagined instead of just trashcanned. The ninja vanish is a fantasy staple.

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Re: HIPS (SM & SD)

Post by garrbear758 » Thu Mar 11, 2021 4:29 am

Jordenk wrote:
Thu Mar 11, 2021 4:09 am
garrbear758 wrote:
Thu Mar 11, 2021 3:21 am
ReverentBlade wrote:
Thu Mar 11, 2021 3:01 am
You can, actually, but its close and usually comes down to latency and how well the server is behaving. The SD has to cancel their own action queue, hit stealth, then click. I have thumb buttons on my mouse that let me do this very quickly, but it is not instant. You can't simply hit stealth while you're swinging, doesn't work. You have to flatfoot yourself for a split second, functionally.

If you know your opponent has HIPS, you start moving as soon as you see them start fading. The movement speed reduction of stealth means you can gain as much distance as the terrain allows *if* you managed the disengage. Doesn't apply to archers, obvs. There is certainly counterplay available to HIPS, that's why its on a timer.

I'm a sword SD, archers are another can of worms.
I know how it works. I explained this in the initial announcements. You can bind disengage to a hotkey and do it very, very quickly. Expecting even the best players on Arelith to be able to react to this consistently is not reality, much less the majority of the server.

This is not getting reverted. Feedback suggesting it is an okay or healthy mechanic to have is a waste of both of our time.
Out of curiosity, is it HIPS or "NWN's broken HIPS." Like if there was an actual skill check as a pre-requisite to break line of sight etc would that be different? A lot of the justification seems to be that it's simply a mechanical exploit due to a garbage implementation. Would HIPS be fine if that weren't the case?
It’s NWNs broken HIPS, but everything involving stealth is hardcoded so there isn’t really an easy fix here. If there was something we could fix and it wouldn’t be super buggy or add to lag then I’d be all for it.
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Re: HIPS (SM & SD)

Post by Nobs » Thu Mar 11, 2021 7:13 am

Yet 11 sd still gets it so the problem remains...maybe you wil see less of it but yeah its still in the game.

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Re: HIPS (SM & SD)

Post by Ninjimmy » Thu Mar 11, 2021 7:45 am

Nobs wrote:
Thu Mar 11, 2021 7:13 am
Yet 11 sd still gets it so the problem remains...maybe you wil see less of it but yeah its still in the game.
"The ability is being left on Shadowdancer (and shifter kobold commando for the three of you playing one) at a higher level for now, as until an overhaul of the class is completed, the class is lacking features to make up for the loss of this. With that said, it is subject to removal at the team's disgression at any time."

Plan is to take it off that too, but as there's nothing to replace it at the moment SD, team is leaving it available with removal at their discretion.
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Re: HIPS (SM & SD)

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:07 am

When HiPS was re-enabled, I pointed out it worked like this, and was told I was wrong. I moved on, and contented myself with the cooldown timer that existed on it, which kept people, at least, from rapidly spamming it multiple times per combat round and screwing anyone trying to target them out of an action more than once per every so often.

When True Seeing was nerfed to a single round's duration, I again pointed out that HiPS worked like this, and that while true seeing auto-breaking stealth seemed cheesy, the alternative was the possibility of someone in full plate with tower shield and negative 15 ranks in stealth being able to flicker someone's action queue no matter how high their detection scores, and I was again told I was wrong.

In NWN, HiPS only works like this due to an engine limitation- without this 'feature', HiPS would never work at all. Because of this 'feature', it also works when it shouldn't- namely, even if the other side has your stealth score +21 in detection skills.

Which was what enabled the cheesy mechanics that originally got it turned off on most servers that did so in the first place- also usually servers that nerfed True Seeing as a stealth QoL improvement- and now that it's been on for a while, and people are doing the thing that they're not supposed to do because "it's part of our kit, even though it's a mechanical exploit," it was really, really inevitable that it got turned back off.

I don't understand the surprise or the outrage; enjoy that you got to run an exploitative mechanic that literally had no counter for as long as you did, and find the next great thing- or stick to your guns, and rock your character without the cheese blink.

My feedback: Good choice, and long overdue. If True Seeing doesn't auto-break stealth reliably and at a duration of at least one round/CL, HiPS has no place on any NWN server, IMO.
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Re: HIPS (SM & SD)

Post by AstralUniverse » Thu Mar 11, 2021 1:01 pm

I think that with how the Shadowdancer class is designed right now, being really bad in pvp and an easy mode in pve, I dont think there's a problem in leaving HiPS as is for 11+ SD lvls. The choice to take 11+ SD lvls is quite pvp crippling and since this class is already filling the nich of 'beginner friendly' and 'pve friendly' I think HiPS is fitting and not overpowered at this state. Maybe, at the very worse case, if it's still overpowered, increase it to 13 SD lvls and force them to select it on a bonus feat at 13th or 16th to really hit the final nail in the coffin, but I currently see no reason to remove it entirely.
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Re: HIPS (SM & SD)

Post by Kishti » Thu Mar 11, 2021 5:22 pm

Just a few of my thoughts.
I feel as a deep SD myself that being able to flatfoot an opponent is my only really dangerous ability in PvP as the AB I can reach is pretty lackluster. The class on it's own doesn't really perform in PvP without multiclassing.
For PvE though that's not an issue at all since the AB to hit most enemies is lower than when facing PCs. The shadow guarding you is insane for PvE, doesn't add much in PvP though.

Having said that I'm really curious as to what kind of rework we can expect.
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Re: HIPS (SM & SD)

Post by garrbear758 » Thu Mar 11, 2021 5:32 pm

Kishti wrote:
Thu Mar 11, 2021 5:22 pm
Just a few of my thoughts.
I feel as a deep SD myself that being able to flatfoot an opponent is my only really dangerous ability in PvP as the AB I can reach is pretty lackluster. The class on it's own doesn't really perform in PvP without multiclassing.
For PvE though that's not an issue at all since the AB to hit most enemies is lower than when facing PCs. The shadow guarding you is insane for PvE, doesn't add much in PvP though.

Having said that I'm really curious as to what kind of rework we can expect.
So a full rework probably won't be anytime soon, as it would be a lot of work and we haven't even begun to plan class features for it. There are also other classes that adding buffs for is a little higher priority (looking at you invisible blade). When it does happen, and again we haven't even begun to have this conversation on the team, I would imagine it'll retain synergy with the summon, and it will get more class features interacting with it, but it will lose HiPS and the summon guarding you. Overall, the goal would be to make it more relevant in pvp and still effective but not quite as absurdly good in pve as it is now. Personally, I'd like to give it some things kind of like the mesmer class from Guild Wars 2 with more dynamic interactions between you and the summon. Stuff like letting you blow it up for AoE damage then spawn a new one the next round and things like that. Maybe expand the position swapping and have that give you and the summon some short term buffs when you do it. Again, this is just me spitballing as we have not discussed any plans as a team, so I wouldn't expect anything in the near future. HiPS will likely stay on the class until it gets reworked, and if HiPS is deemed a must-remove for heavy SD, we would definitely push the rework up in priority significantly.
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Re: HIPS (SM & SD)

Post by godhand- » Thu Mar 11, 2021 10:32 pm

garrbear758 wrote:
Thu Mar 11, 2021 3:21 am
This is not getting reverted. Feedback suggesting it is an okay or healthy mechanic to have is a waste of both of our time.
I'd like to be clear in that at no point did i, or reverentblade suggest its a healthy mechanic - nor have i complained about hips going... just offering that its not as cut and dry as its made out to be that its an "instant action."

Frankly, I don't really care if HIPS is removed, I get the reason why. And if somehow my words were "read between the lines" that i felt otherwise, i apologise my language wasn't clear enough to communicate that... However i do think we need to be honest and clear about how the mechanics actually work while we discuss the dilemma and its alternatives.
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Re: HIPS (SM & SD)

Post by garrbear758 » Thu Mar 11, 2021 11:04 pm

godhand- wrote:
Thu Mar 11, 2021 10:32 pm
garrbear758 wrote:
Thu Mar 11, 2021 3:21 am
This is not getting reverted. Feedback suggesting it is an okay or healthy mechanic to have is a waste of both of our time.
I'd like to be clear in that at no point did i, or reverentblade suggest its a healthy mechanic - nor have i complained about hips going... just offering that its not as cut and dry as its made out to be that its an "instant action."

Frankly, I don't really care if HIPS is removed, I get the reason why. And if somehow my words were "read between the lines" that i felt otherwise, i apologise my language wasn't clear enough to communicate that... However i do think we need to be honest and clear about how the mechanics actually work while we discuss the dilemma and its alternatives.
That's fair. I definitely read into it that you were pushing for it staying. My bad dude!
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Re: HIPS (SM & SD)

Post by Subtext » Fri Mar 12, 2021 1:36 am

I will say, this whole issue has my toes curling.

Hide in plain sight as a concept itself isn't terrible. It's cool even...it damn well fits the Shadowdancer concept...the problem lies with a fairly terrible implementation code wise and really benefits those classes who are otherwise well suited to PvP when only a minor investment is needed.

As such...heck yes, put Hips somewhere really far down the whole tree. Make it require a really deep investment because being able to hide in plain sight shouldn't just be some minor thing and on that note, I'm more than happy about reading that it already got removed for everyone except invested Shadowdancers. I agree that it's an unhealthy mechanic when it can be abused like it seemingly did by some. But seriously...why would a bloody wizard...even a Shadowmage...get it to begin with...

But here's the thing where still removing it entirely kind of bugs me. Someone that is going down deep into the Shadowdancer class probably doesn't do it because they feel they are going to dominate PvP to begin with. If you drop sixteen or even more levels on being a Shadowdancer (heck...I'm running nineteen), you definitely want to be sneaky and you're going to push for it by investing because otherwise it makes pretty little sense do go that deep.
Chances are that if you do that, your stealth is high enough to succeed anyway, making the whole issue of flatfooting someone not an exploit issue anymore but intended behaviour.

On that note, why not make it a separate feat instead with the requirements reflecting such an investment? Or - similar as spell foci grant additional stuff, it could be granted to an SD taking the Epic skill focus for Hide/MS. Or it could be a flat out separate feat requiring 30 ranks in hide and move silently...things like that. I'd think there are ways of implementing it that would circumvent the abuse factor. Heck...it could even be something as "cheap" as a renamed copy of Greater Sanctuary. Likewise, it would make a lot of sense if the cooldown didn't start with using hips but with leaving stealth.

That being said, Hips is comparable to Greater Sanctuary in many regards as they prevent the user to be targeted directly but still make them suspectible to area of effect damage - with some key differences. Hips is easier done, can be repeated quickly and often and synergizes well with throatstabbing. Greater Sanctuary is harder to counter and allows for more actions...specifically giving the potential for a lengthy windup.

Overall, SDs don't really have anything else going for them when it comes to PvP. They are outclassed by rogues in basically every regard there...which I don't even think is terribly bad. It's a class designed around being stealthy, encouraging them to take different approaches around powerful opponents seems fitting. Even with being able to flatfoot someone at will, there are plenty of character concepts that still outclass it (like atacking someone with +70 AB and well over 200 damage in a single strike...or being able to hit four figures with a single attack) with a much more direct approach.
As for PvE? They are fantastic but not almighty either. The shadow adds a ton of survivability but it doesn't make you invulnerable...and without it? You're essentially toast. At least without Hips because it's a pretty damn good panic button. Plus, it takes a long time to get to the point of being comparable to summoners in terms of PvE survivability. Announcing that you're taking their best feature - the shadow guarding the PC - away, claiming it is too powerful feels a bit ironic when every wizard, cleric and druid is doing essentially the same, perform much better in PvP and the first just recently received some quite nice buffs too.

I'm NOT against a rework of the class per se...but I do feel that the current stance on it feels a bit rash because it's based on people abusing core mechanics that they probably shouldn't have had access to to begin with...leading to the entire premise and gameplay of the class it was intended for being put on the chopping block and turned into something entirely different. That admittedly does suck a little.

jomonog
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Re: HIPS (SM & SD)

Post by jomonog » Fri Mar 12, 2021 5:28 am

As a sometimes player of a deep shadowdancer as one of my characters, i too would be annoyed if the shadow guarding was taken away from PVE. It doesnt seem to be to impact PVP and there are plenty of other more powerful classes that roflstomp high end PVE content solo probably better than shadowdancer like druids, warlocks, mages and im sure plenty others i cant remember to list.

Aelryn Bloodmoon
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Re: HIPS (SM & SD)

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Sat Mar 13, 2021 10:07 am

While I accept that a shadowdancer deep into their class levels probably has the ranks to blink most targets legitimately, there's no way to guarantee you don't shaft the spot-focused character that should be able to see you in any situation as long as Hide in Plain Sight exists, and that person is going to take a bunch of burst they didn't deserve to take, at the least, or lose their round trying to cast a spell at you (arguably worse if the burst in comparison doesn't kill).

The only way to remove this toxic component is to introduce a hard-counter to HiPS, because pressing F1 for stealth with HiPS was a hard counter to any targeted offensive actions in the game. We already know True Seeing isn't going to be reverted to vanilla. Diviners were just given a specialist buff regarding its length, but that's entirely too niche to be any kind of reliable counter against something that works when it's not supposed to.
Bane's tyranny is known throughout the continent, and his is the image most seen as the face of evil.
-Faiths and Pantheons (c)2002

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