HIPS (SM & SD)

[Anomandaris]

"From Garrbear
===============
Hide in Plain Sight (HiPS) changes:
-Removed from Ranger, Shadow Mage, and the Vine Mine spell
-Moved from Shadowdancer level 5 to level 11

Hide in Plain Sight is a feature that was disabled on Arelith for about 10 of the last 15 years. Since the Shadowdancer class was added to the server and HiPS began to appear in various class features, the level of mechanical understanding on the server has increased dramatically. While overall this is a good thing, it means that the inherent issues of the ability are more widely understood and abused. I know this will be a controversial change for many of you, so I will do my best to explain how it can be abused and the reasons behind the removal of the ability. If you have any questions I'll do my best to follow up in the feedback post or feel free to pm me on Discord at Garrbear#5548.

So, Hide in Plain Sight cancels the action queue of anyone targeting you when it is used. This is done before the stealth check is made. What this means is that anyone attacking you or attempting to cast a spell on you will immediately stop what they are doing, even if your stealth scores are -100. Besides the obvious factor of being able to cancel spells in mid-cast, this all will immediately flat foot someone. Flat footing will remove their dodge bonus to AC, which depending on the build will account for 5-20 AC, along with any dex AC for a character lacking uncanny dodge. By using hotkeys to disengage (when the attack radial button is on a quickbar, it will become an instant disengage button when you are attacking) and stealth quickly, one can immediately attack again out of stealth, resulting in the reduction in AC, along with your opponent either wasting a spell or standing there doing nothing until they can react. This is most abusable on builds with high levels of burst damage through either sneak attack or other abilities, such as a Rogue / Shadowdancer or a Barbarian / Shadowdancer / Weaponmaster. There is no reasonable counter to this (technically Truesight works if you can read minds and guess correctly when they are going to use HiPS, but it's not a very practical solution), and there is no way to code around it as it is a hardcoded ability.

The ability is being left on Shadowdancer (and shifter kobold commando for the three of you playing one) at a higher level for now, as until an overhaul of the class is completed, the class is lacking features to make up for the loss of this. With that said, it is subject to removal at the team's disgression at any time.

Characters with Shadowdancer levels or the feats dodge and mobility but not spring attack will be given relevels. Full level 0 rebuilds or relevels for other classes will not be offered."

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Sooooo what about those of us with Shadowmages? It's literally the only thing that made the class viable.. All of your abuse scenarios center around bursting after the flat foot. Shadowmage doesn't do that. Can we have HIPS back on shadowmages please...

[Echohawk]

This is bull.

Shadow mage loses the one feature that made it worth taking. You're giving up evocation spells for a boost to illusion and you can't get wild surges. Players that took that class can't change out of it even with a relevel since paths cannot be changed, they will now be forced to either eat these changes or remake and be SOL.

Ranger is 21 whole levels of dedication to achieve this, it's not a casual dip.

Shadowdancer I understand the most since yeah sure, I guess you don't want it to be a 'dip', but this entire swipe of the mechanic feels like a kick in the nards.

[magistrasa]

Characters with Shadowdancer levels or the feats dodge and mobility but not spring attack will be given relevels. Full level 0 rebuilds or relevels for other classes will not be offered."

I do find it pretty disappointing that the Shadow Mages that dipped for stealth to make use of their HiPS aren't even in the running for relevels. At the very least, I would say that much should be reconsidered.

And while I do think there's a strong argument to leave HiPS in the Shadow Mage's arsenal (for the same reason that high SD and kobold Shifters get it - a lack of any other mechanics unique to the class's identity), ultimately I have to relent that HiPS's removal from the server is probably going to be a good move in the long term. I just wish there was, y'know, something to replace it.

[Drowboy]

Its use involves an exploit in the NWN engine, and none of those classes should've had it handed out to begin with.

Shadowmage remains fine, with dc boosts and, let's be real, an incredibly generous suite of evocation replacers that's looked just a little too generous for a long while, with the chassis they have.

And there's no argument whatsoever for leaving an engine exploit in a class because it's "thematic," that's ridiculous.

[Apothys]

Well in theory you could get the HIPs with no skill points on a shadowmage and hit it in pvp and your enemy will flat foot and stop what there doing. Leading to you gaining an advantage with summons or running away or even gaining an advantage casting again.

[Shrouded Wanderer]

Characters with Shadowdancer levels or the feats dodge and mobility but not spring attack will be given relevels. Full level 0 rebuilds or relevels for other classes will not be offered."

I do find it pretty disappointing that the Shadow Mages that dipped for stealth to make use of their HiPS aren't even in the running for relevels. At the very least, I would say that much should be reconsidered.

And while I do think there's a strong argument to leave HiPS in the Shadow Mage's arsenal (for the same reason that high SD and kobold Shifters get it - a lack of any other mechanics unique to the class's identity), ultimately I have to relent that HiPS's removal from the server is probably going to be a good move in the long term. I just wish there was, y'know, something to replace it.

Give shadowmages a dimension door-like ability like shadowdancers shadow jump would be a fun idea

[Nitro]

Fantastic and long needed change. Shadow mages could probably use a little something else to replace it but it definitely needed to go.

[torugor]

Just as a reminder...HIPS for rangers are not real HIPS. Its HIPS on forests and wild.

[Wethrinea]

For STRangers in particular this was a very nice cookie to have, as with spells and items stealth could reach a level for it to be useful. Sad to see it go.

[Anomandaris]

Fantastic and long needed change. Shadow mages could probably use a little something else to replace it but it definitely needed to go.

HIPS on SD at lvl 5 sure, HIPS on Ranger sure. This just broke SM viability completely though.

DC casting is in a terrible place. Any sort of direct damage wombo combo is almost impossible w/ Timestop changes and pray + heal pots. Saves are insane, tons of PCS have evasion. Almost anyone can beat the DC40-41 save threshold AND/OR have immunities (mind/death/necro).

Have you played a SM extensively? Just curious... I've played a wiz & sorc version to 30 and they're niche. With HIPS probably looking at a A-B (ish) tier. Certainly not top tier. Now? Trash tier.

[Imperatrix]

SMs are fine, with Arelith's custom spells the path is still an upgrade for any non-evocation focused mage. But any build that relies on "save or die" mechanics is going to be a coinflip in a lot of scenarios.

HiPS is an awful mechanic and its existence in any form has always been deleterious to fun or balanced gameplay. I'm glad it's on the way out.

Signed, a div rogue with HiPS.

[Drowboy]

Having played a 30 SM wiz and the popular variants of sd (5 and 16), they're fine without it.

They are. Timestop got reverted and some kind soul gave SMs most of the evo suite back as shadow spells and darkbolt, so you can even raw damage people down if you need, like a regular old mage.

If you think the class is bad because you can no longer rely on an unavoidable engine exploit (important to note here that all players with hips were, till today, exploiting on a regular basis like or not, because bioware can barely code a game) it's not the class that's not good.

[xanrael]

As a note update thread has been changed:

Characters with Shadowdancer levels or the feats dodge and mobility but not spring attack will be given relevels. Rangers > 3 and Shadow Mages will also be given relevels. Full level 0 rebuilds or relevels for other classes will not be offered.

[Nitro]

Have you played a SM extensively? Just curious... I've played a wiz & sorc version to 30 and they're niche. With HIPS probably looking at a A-B (ish) tier. Certainly not top tier. Now? Trash tier.

Yeah, with HiPS they were just a straight upgrade to wizards. Especially after they got an IGMS lite (with a CC component on top!) in the form of darkbolt, vastly reducing their sole weakness. I do think they can use something else to replace hips, but it 100% had to go.

[Flower Power]

Good.

I've been saying Stealth/DEX builds have been overtuned ad nauseum for a loooooong time now.

They've had a "Haha, I win" button with very little counterplay to it for too long. This was a needed change if the stealth mechanics aren't going to be fixed.

[Ork]

Farewell, HiPS. I am very excited about this change, and shows the developers have a pretty good idea on what mechanics are most abusive. Rogues with a SD dip get to enjoy now greater access to grenades and ab without having to fear like they missed out on one of the most broken abilities NWN ever had.

[Bunnysmack]

The singer/songwriter Shakira will be pleased, because, at long last, "HiPS Don't Lie."

*Proceeds to flee from the inevitable pun-induced violent retribution*

[magistrasa]

(My second attempt at posting this, jesus what is up with the site today)

Well in theory you could get the HIPs with no skill points on a shadowmage and hit it in pvp and your enemy will flat foot and stop what there doing. Leading to you gaining an advantage with summons or running away or even gaining an advantage casting again.

Yeah, you're basically accurate about how it's typically used by Shadow Mages. But that's not going to win you any fights. No one ever killed their enemy by running away, and unless your opponent is supremely incompetent, your summon isn't going to win the fight for you while you hide. HiPS in this situation is purely defensive, and it'll break the second you're forced to cast a spell to keep up your momentum. There's no AC-breaking big-damage maneuver here for a Shadow Mage in the same way that there is for melee combatants. And if you have no points in stealth and simply hit HiPS to break the action queue, the enemy is going to spot you a second later and resume their charge. Without investment, it buys you a couple seconds at most.

Shadowmage remains fine, with dc boosts and, let's be real, an incredibly generous suite of evocation replacers

Initially I was like 80% sure you were trolling here, but I'm gonna try and engage with this in good faith if you'll do the same.

If I remember correctly, the DC boost gives you, to a limited selection of schools, an absolute maximum possible DC of 45 (maybe 46?), with a 9th circle spell and with the highest INT score you can achieve with race, gift, and feats (though, technically, not even 45 is possible because you're spending almost all your Epic Feats to grab Great Intelligence and won't be able to take any Epic Spell Focii). At this time, it's completely feasible between spellcraft bonuses, specialized gear, runes granting Universal Saves, and consumables, for even your lowest save against spells to hit +30. Will and Fortitude saves, which are what the most dangerous SM spells target, are usually much, much higher, because everyone knows how dangerous those spells are and plan accordingly. Though, in many cases, high saves aren't even necessary. Most of the worst spells a Shadow Mage will throw at you are countered by 4 potions: Death Ward, Clarity, Negative Energy Protection, and Freedom of Movement. Anyone who wants to kill a Shadow Mage can become effectively immune to their most potent abilities in 2 rounds.

I genuinely have no idea what you mean by a "generous suite of evocation replacers," because the only things that immediately come to mind are Darkbolt and Shadow Conjuration. And the only thing I really remember being particularly useful about Shadow Conjuration was that you could cast Gust of Wind to flip levers. Yeah, okay, sure, Darkbolt is cool, but it's not Hellball and it never will be. Maybe you had something more specific in mind, but you'll have to speak it for yourself, because I unfortunately was born with donkey brains so this is the best I can do here.

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Even in the alternate universe that may exist somewhere in which Shadow Mage is actually an effective spellcaster class on Arelith, it's still not fun to play. And I think everyone can agree it's certainly not fun to play against either. HiPS was part of what made it suck to engage with in combat, but the focus on save-or-die spells it encourages is just... lame. No better word for it. I mean, let's be real, NWN has always been a "my number higher than your number I win" kinda game, but skilled and experienced players usually get a bit of wiggle room where they can rely on their wit or reflexes to succeed in an unfavorable situation. Save-or-die spells don't even pretend at strategy. Either your save is good or it isn't, and that's neither fair nor balanced. If the target of the spell fails the save, they get to sit around in the fugue feeling cheated by terrible mechanics. If the target succeeds, the Shadow Mage is left feeling like they'd been cheated by terrible class design. Shadow Mages, and DC casters as a whole, aren't "good." They shouldn't be, either. The concept in and of itself is just antithetical to fun.

Though it's left a painful HiPS-shaped hole in my heart, removing HiPS from Shadow Mage was, again, probably a good call in the long run. I think removing Shadow Mage altogether will be the next good call.
Or, y'know, making it a PRC or something and changing how it works entirely, but I get the sense that's kind of a pipe dream.

[Nekonecro]

One could always turn invisable and then sneak or even run around a corner before sneaking.

If your whole class was based on one "Lemme just cancel that action queue you have there" button and it's completely unviable to you without it then your doing your class a diservice. Perhaps take a look at your class and the tactics you use with it again, there's plenty for a illusion and enchantment based mage to do.

-Signed
A person who played an illusion/enchantment mage with stealth ranks.

[garrbear758]

Just because cancelling someone's action queues is being done defensively rather than offensively doesn't mean it's any less abusable.

[Auki]

One could always turn invisable and then sneak or even run around a corner before sneaking.

If your whole class was based on one "Lemme just cancel that action queue you have there" button and it's completely unviable to you without it then your doing your class a diservice. Perhaps take a look at your class and the tactics you use with it again, there's plenty for a illusion and enchantment based mage to do.

-Signed
A person who played an illusion/enchantment mage with stealth ranks.

I dont think I pvped without see invisibility in more than a year. I play mundanes.

[Nekonecro]

I dont think I pvped without see invisibility in more than a year. I play mundanes.

Hence why I also gave the corner as a option, no see invisibility can go through wood, brick or stone. It pays to be aware of what's around you to use.

[Hazard]

HiPS and stealth never really fit on Shadowmages. I'd love to see Shadowmage get something else entirely to make up for it.
But I certainly wouldn't want to see them just stay as they are.

I love the +2 DC to their schools. What if it was a +4 and that's it? That would be sick.
Or what if they are able to cast evocation but -2 DC.

Keeping it simple.

[Dalenger]

I agree that this disrupts the balance for a number of classes, and for anyone who has been playing SM or who built around this feature, I feel bad. This chance isn't about balance or theme, but about removing an ability which does something it was clearly not meant to do. In the short term, this is unfortunate and I see how it could be extremely frustrating for those it affects. But in the grand scheme of things, HiPS needed to either be fixed or removed. The ability to flat-foot your opponent w/o any skill investment or save + cancel any action they're in the middle of taking was so incredibly BS.

I for one am very glad to see the devs bite the bullet and do what had to be done.

[Irongron]

It should go without saying that making changes like this gives us very little pleasure, and the team was well aware it would leave a bitter taste for many.

At the end of the day we couldn't leave this in, in it's current form, as I believe Garrbear thoroughly explained. Removing it was the only real option.

Really the mistake was my own in approving it for reactivation after so many years, without fully understanding the mechanical implications.