Climb Checks, Special Races & Current DCs

[Za-Lord~s Guard]

Just found one of the new climb checks on my pixie. It seems a little weird though that a winged race can't scale a cliff by just...floating up - especially since they just got moved to being a 5% race. I recall air genasi got a free boost to their climb, and I believe pixies were slated to receive similar at some point?

The climb itself, visually was a very small move from one point to a very slightly higher cliff. So the "This climb looks to be near impossible" also seems really weird, pixies and wings aside.



Visually this looks as though it should be a relatively simple climb that could be attempted by untrained individuals with moderate chance for success. If you're not pixie sized, you're already covering half of the climb from height alone.

[ReverentBlade]

I don't think the DCs report correctly at all. My character -never- fails a climb, but they all display as "impossible" to him.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

I'm pretty sure the checks aren't being reported correctly. Even if you equip a full climb gear set, it'll still say "impossible." But you'll still make the check just fine. It's impossible to know for sure though because the numbers are hidden.

[Za-Lord~s Guard]

For what I'm seeing so far, a lot of these climb checks seem pretty inflated - mandating the gear for cases that look like they should be reasonably attemptable with a chance for success without special training or equipment designed for climbs. At least, for how a lot are flagged as "impossible".

The system is seems opaque, and it's hard to gauge the climb from a mechanical sense - that, and there doesn't seem to be much parity between the IC of how difficult a climb should be to attempt and the mechanical of what level of training is needed to go for it.

[Hazard]

I feel like there should be a lot of exceptions to climb, too.
Polymorphs. Shapechanges. Elemental forms. Animal forms. Races. Spells.

And some of the requirements for spots seems ridiculous to me.
I love the content being added, and wouldn't mind str/dex checks.. but I still think climb as a whole additional skill, on top of ALL THESE OTHER skills we have to invest in to stay viable, is just .... Bleh.

[Skibbles]

There's a huge amount of issues with climb.

First we have two completely different rope types, each only does half of the full climbing feature, so you need two ropes to make full use of the features. I asked about this earlier and thankfully got a very clear response (including Irongron himself stating that maybe going to one rope is a good idea): viewtopic.php?f=13&t=32741&p=257738#p257738

Second there appears to be several different types of climbing, or at least the feedback makes it seems this way. Old ones, such as the rope that goes from Elg'nizrul to the Anguillians below, has no feedback and seems virtually impossible to climb if you're any kind of caster even if you have STR and DEX at 20 or just under.

Like the screenshot above that seems to look like the Deep Wells, or at least that's the only place I've seen it, and even with a climb score of 20ish just from abilities I think I remember taking almost taking 200 damage failing an easy climb, while having no difficulty with an impossible climb just earlier. I'm not sure if this is just a result of the wild insanity that is the antiquated d20 D&D system or a bug.

Wings probably deserve a boost for climbing, but it could be quickly ubiquitous that everyone just carries wands/scrolls of polymorph pixie for all climb checks as I suspect most people aren't very excited about this feature and will do anything to get around engaging in it.

Edit: I want to add since Irongron seems to read many of the Climb threads - is it possible that climbing checks can be made temporarily unhidden so as to help with reporting on bugs related to them? It's currently very hard to know if these things are problems or working as intended, and I certainly feel constantly confused. I don't see a reason to hide it - similar to how we see the DCs for spell, traps, and locks, but it might help narrow down what's going on.

[Flower Power]

The hilarious thing about divorcing Climb Skill from mundane character levels is that the classes that were previously the best situated to climb are now the ones who are the least likely to be capable climbers, because no one in their right mind is going to allocate their 2 + INT skillpoints/lvl towards Climb.

[Nobs]

Dex doesnt count towards climb atm

[Irongron]

There's a huge amount of issues with climb.

First we have two completely different rope types, each only does half of the full climbing feature, so you need two ropes to make full use of the features. I asked about this earlier and thankfully got a very clear response (including Irongron himself stating that maybe going to one rope is a good idea): viewtopic.php?f=13&t=32741&p=257738#p257738

Second there appears to be several different types of climbing, or at least the feedback makes it seems this way. Old ones, such as the rope that goes from Elg'nizrul to the Anguillians below, has no feedback and seems virtually impossible to climb if you're any kind of caster even if you have STR and DEX at 20 or just under.

Like the screenshot above that seems to look like the Deep Wells, or at least that's the only place I've seen it, and even with a climb score of 20ish just from abilities I think I remember taking almost taking 200 damage failing an easy climb, while having no difficulty with an impossible climb just earlier. I'm not sure if this is just a result of the wild insanity that is the antiquated d20 D&D system or a bug.

Wings probably deserve a boost for climbing, but it could be quickly ubiquitous that everyone just carries wands/scrolls of polymorph pixie for all climb checks as I suspect most people aren't very excited about this feature and will do anything to get around engaging in it.

Edit: I want to add since Irongron seems to read many of the Climb threads - is it possible that climbing checks can be made temporarily unhidden so as to help with reporting on bugs related to them? It's currently very hard to know if these things are problems or working as intended, and I certainly feel constantly confused. I don't see a reason to hide it - similar to how we see the DCs for spell, traps, and locks, but it might help narrow down what's going on.

Hey, I read all the threads.

Anyway, let me clarify a few things.

There is (should be) only one climbing skill check. Whether this is used with lasso points, old or new Climb spots (old will eventually be replaced, it should be same skill)

My intention is that rope and lasso have the same usage, the latter, as an item should then be phased out.

The new Climb points aren't currently giving the correct difficulty feedback. Fix should be happening soon.

I have asked that all Climb checks give a visible DC and roll.

The skill is currently only checking Strength, rather than an average of Strength and Dexterity.

Classes lost their +1 per level, to be reviewed after this is rolled out. The reason should be easy to grasp - a +1 per level on a skill few invest in would make Climb checks routine for a large % the server, and impossible for everyone else. More importantly, if I wanted to make a VERY difficult test, such as for entering a PC castle, I would need to account for the fact some classes were getting +30, and set DCs in the 100s, thus effectively saying 'this check is fir fighters/rogues/monks only.

Some races and classes (such as swashbuckler) get a 50% level bonus. This is as high as I will go.

In general, all previous climb checks will be of a level where anyone using Climb gear can make them.

Various harder checks will/have been placed across the module for those who really want to heavily invest.

With only very few exceptions, climb checks offer shortcuts, routes to extra resources, breaking into buildings, or revealing small hidden areas. It will not be used as the sole means actually progress through a dungeon. In short, as with any skill, you don't need to invest here.

And, here is the important one - characters CANNOT fly. You likely noticed this when you couldn't fly over a ravine, up to the top of a tower, or just out of reach of that orc with an axe. This isn't new. A couple of special races with flight animations (pixie/imp) can hover just off the ground, at most. (These races should likely be removed, quite frankly). At most, such races will get a 50% level bonus.

A great many more Climb spots will be added over time (including to rooftops)

Climb is here to stay.

Once we have looked at the last two skills I wish to improve, as a team we will review class skill points.

[Skibbles]

The climb post to end all climb posts! That makes it very clear for me, thank you.

Also if one of the ropes is to be removed it might better to do the Climbing Rope, instead of the Lasso, because the Lasso/Lightweight Lasso are craftable using Tailoring whereas the Climbing Rope can only be bought at a vendor as far as I know.

I don't know how all the crafting stuff works, as far as the code, but I'd imagine that renaming Lasso to Climbing Rope (after removing the old Rope) might save some time on getting these items into crafting if they're supposed to be there. The craftable lightweight version of the lasso is very helpfully 10 or 15 less weight.

(and for anyone who didn't know - the lightweight lasso is a separate item as I discovered recently. You can enchant a normal lasso with weight reduction but once you use it, as in it leaves your inventory and then returns once you collect it, it loses its enchanted state and becomes super heavy again. The lightweight lasso does not suffer this problem and returns to your inventory just as light as when it left!)

Hey, I read all the threads.

It would have been wiser for me to say 'respond', I think.

[magistrasa]

I had to make another climb check yesterday that almost killed my party while we were trying to make our way to a dungeon. The trauma of this event was so great that it literally infected my dreams. But this might have a positive result, because in my dream about how agonizing climb checks arep, I got slapped with some ★~°•inspiration•°~★

Pixies should probably have no problem with climb checks. You know who else? Spiders. Spider forms for druids and polymorph should totally get a huge skill boost to climb checks as part of the stat block. And you know what else? Spider Climb should be a new spell. Wizards are so well known in D&D for having all the weird niche utility spells, but NWN is so combat focused that this aspect of the class identity rarely comes into play. We've added a bunch of the spells to the game, and we've improved the utility of others, but that also really only extends to combat viability instead of the weird fun prestidigitation-esque nonsense. Adding spells like Spider Climb to their repertoire would just add another fun tool to the toolbox and... I dunno, it'd be cool okay, I just woke up from a spider-filled nightmare, I can't be expected to present my thoughts in an eloquent manner.

(In the dream there was a big chasm and everyone used polymorph to turn into spiders but while they were spiders they lost their minds and started attacking me and I had to jump into the chasm and start rock-climbing Assassin's Creed style to avoid the angry spider friends and I didn't want to kill them because they were my friends but also they were spiders so they were very very gross and terrifying)

[Hazard]

The hilarious thing about divorcing Climb Skill from mundane character levels is that the classes that were previously the best situated to climb are now the ones who are the least likely to be capable climbers, because no one in their right mind is going to allocate their 2 + INT skillpoints/lvl towards Climb.

This.

My weaponmaster with a strength greater than dragons, the endurance of a hundred marathon runners, and dex decent enough that they can casually do spinny-flip-attacks leaping through the air, can't CLIMB A ROPE.

lol.

I can climb a rope and I'm a level 1 commoner irl.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

Thank you for the post Gron! I enjoy the climb system and am looking forward to seeing more spots added, rooftops sound like fun. The only unanswered question I have about the system is if climb will be added to the dweomercraft basin skill list at some point? Otherwise I'm going to try and enchant a bunch of gear I can buy from NPCs.

[Za-Lord~s Guard]

Some races and classes (such as swashbuckler) get a 50% level bonus. This is as high as I will go.

The wiki's information suggests air genasi are receiving an automatic success, rather than a 50% bonus.

. . .
And, here is the important one - characters CANNOT fly. You likely noticed this when you couldn't fly over a ravine, up to the top of a tower, or just out of reach of that orc with an axe. This isn't new. A couple of special races with flight animations (pixie/imp) can hover just off the ground, at most. (These races should likely be removed, quite frankly). At most, such races will get a 50% level bonus.

Climb is here to stay.

Once we have looked at the last two skills I wish to improve, as a team we will review class skill points.

Agree 100%, imp and pixie should definitely be removed as options if climb is going to remain a permanent skill and they aren't being modified to receive some sort of bonus at least equivalent to the other races or free pass in the server's approach to climb. Otherwise this question is going to come up continuously from the community from people who don't understand why the weird windy dudes can pass climb checks without fail but the little flying races can't scale cliffs.

The various bird forms for druids, pixie polymorph, and other winged features available should also be removed (RDD wings, druidic dragonshape, etc) to protect the immersion of the players and produce a more sensible environment for climbing related roleplay.

[Flower Power]

There's a huge amount of issues with climb.

First we have two completely different rope types, each only does half of the full climbing feature, so you need two ropes to make full use of the features. I asked about this earlier and thankfully got a very clear response (including Irongron himself stating that maybe going to one rope is a good idea): viewtopic.php?f=13&t=32741&p=257738#p257738

Second there appears to be several different types of climbing, or at least the feedback makes it seems this way. Old ones, such as the rope that goes from Elg'nizrul to the Anguillians below, has no feedback and seems virtually impossible to climb if you're any kind of caster even if you have STR and DEX at 20 or just under.

Like the screenshot above that seems to look like the Deep Wells, or at least that's the only place I've seen it, and even with a climb score of 20ish just from abilities I think I remember taking almost taking 200 damage failing an easy climb, while having no difficulty with an impossible climb just earlier. I'm not sure if this is just a result of the wild insanity that is the antiquated d20 D&D system or a bug.

Wings probably deserve a boost for climbing, but it could be quickly ubiquitous that everyone just carries wands/scrolls of polymorph pixie for all climb checks as I suspect most people aren't very excited about this feature and will do anything to get around engaging in it.

Edit: I want to add since Irongron seems to read many of the Climb threads - is it possible that climbing checks can be made temporarily unhidden so as to help with reporting on bugs related to them? It's currently very hard to know if these things are problems or working as intended, and I certainly feel constantly confused. I don't see a reason to hide it - similar to how we see the DCs for spell, traps, and locks, but it might help narrow down what's going on.

Hey, I read all the threads.

Anyway, let me clarify a few things.

There is (should be) only one climbing skill check. Whether this is used with lasso points, old or new Climb spots (old will eventually be replaced, it should be same skill)

My intention is that rope and lasso have the same usage, the latter, as an item should then be phased out.

The new Climb points aren't currently giving the correct difficulty feedback. Fix should be happening soon.

I have asked that all Climb checks give a visible DC and roll.

The skill is currently only checking Strength, rather than an average of Strength and Dexterity.

Classes lost their +1 per level, to be reviewed after this is rolled out. The reason should be easy to grasp - a +1 per level on a skill few invest in would make Climb checks routine for a large % the server, and impossible for everyone else. More importantly, if I wanted to make a VERY difficult test, such as for entering a PC castle, I would need to account for the fact some classes were getting +30, and set DCs in the 100s, thus effectively saying 'this check is fir fighters/rogues/monks only.

Some races and classes (such as swashbuckler) get a 50% level bonus. This is as high as I will go.

In general, all previous climb checks will be of a level where anyone using Climb gear can make them.

Various harder checks will/have been placed across the module for those who really want to heavily invest.

With only very few exceptions, climb checks offer shortcuts, routes to extra resources, breaking into buildings, or revealing small hidden areas. It will not be used as the sole means actually progress through a dungeon. In short, as with any skill, you don't need to invest here.

And, here is the important one - characters CANNOT fly. You likely noticed this when you couldn't fly over a ravine, up to the top of a tower, or just out of reach of that orc with an axe. This isn't new. A couple of special races with flight animations (pixie/imp) can hover just off the ground, at most. (These races should likely be removed, quite frankly). At most, such races will get a 50% level bonus.

A great many more Climb spots will be added over time (including to rooftops)

Climb is here to stay.

Once we have looked at the last two skills I wish to improve, as a team we will review class skill points.

A happy middle ground could be something like adding a Minor Gift with a climb bonus of 1/2 CL; that way you'd be free to add in climb checks without needing to worry about huge swathes of the population auto-passing everything, but low-skillpoint builds (or anyone who really wants to get all that Climb content) still can have a snowball's chance in hell of experiencing the content - after all, that's why content is being made in the first place, isn't it?

Tying a sizeable bonus to a Gift would give people the option of having the easier access to climb-related content they previously enjoyed (or not having to give up half an inventory page of precious space on +5 climb gear), while also being balanced against sacrificing 10 Crafting Ranks or 4 language slots, neither of which are things you can make up for in gameplay.

[ThisIsAnOocName]

Air genasi climb bonus doesn't seem to really work. I've rolled a 3 on my character.