Feedback on Runic Materials

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Curve
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Re: Feedback on Runic Materials

Post by Curve » Mon Apr 05, 2021 4:09 pm

Farlius wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:44 pm
I would also say that those "great examples" you're giving are better if you enchant, hard five and then use a greater. This points back to dweomercraft as again being superior to these lessers.
Of course they are superior, lesser is less than greater. You can do more stuff with them. At the same time lesser is very useful. I plan my gear around several lesser runes and one greater rune typically. I don't plan my gear around the best ones, and I don't care to 5% things. That means for me the lessers are, as intended, the most used.
Farlius wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:44 pm
I go back to the 2004 MMO thing because I know what it was like to spend hundreds of hours grinding for a 1% item, you can't ignore that existed, and still exists. It just so happens to be something done quietly on Arelith as well, whether consistently or sporadically.
Like said above, you don't have to have the best runes to play the game. If you want to 'spend hundreds of hours grinding for a 1% item' that is on you.
Farlius wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:44 pm
I will await the teams opinion since you have disengaged in this dialogue.
You presented your case to the best of your ability and a member of the team said they are not considering changing the system. You got an answer. You don't like the answer. Beating your head against the wall and saying 'but I am right' is not going to change the situation. It is just going to make people stop listening to you as happened above.

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Farlius
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Re: Feedback on Runic Materials

Post by Farlius » Mon Apr 05, 2021 7:40 pm

Curve wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 4:09 pm
Farlius wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:44 pm
I would also say that those "great examples" you're giving are better if you enchant, hard five and then use a greater. This points back to dweomercraft as again being superior to these lessers.
Of course they are superior, lesser is less than greater. You can do more stuff with them. At the same time lesser is very useful. I plan my gear around several lesser runes and one greater rune typically. I don't plan my gear around the best ones, and I don't care to 5% things. That means for me the lessers are, as intended, the most used.
Farlius wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:44 pm
I go back to the 2004 MMO thing because I know what it was like to spend hundreds of hours grinding for a 1% item, you can't ignore that existed, and still exists. It just so happens to be something done quietly on Arelith as well, whether consistently or sporadically.
Like said above, you don't have to have the best runes to play the game. If you want to 'spend hundreds of hours grinding for a 1% item' that is on you.
Farlius wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:44 pm
I will await the teams opinion since you have disengaged in this dialogue.
You presented your case to the best of your ability and a member of the team said they are not considering changing the system. You got an answer. You don't like the answer. Beating your head against the wall and saying 'but I am right' is not going to change the situation. It is just going to make people stop listening to you as happened above.
You have missed my point on the first quote in that enchanting an item to three is usually doable with or without a hard 5, Some items with 1 attribute enchanted and enchanted again then runed end up being better than simply slapping a lesser on for roughly the same effort.
Yes, they are greater. I was drawing parallel that dweomercraft outshines lessers.

Choices are choices. We should not cater to bad design just because we can.

And that seemed more an personal opinion outside the first response saying they have no intent to change this.
Dialogue is healthy and extricating oneself is not constructive.

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-XXX-
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Re: Feedback on Runic Materials

Post by -XXX- » Mon Apr 05, 2021 8:03 pm

Farlius wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 7:40 pm
We should not cater to bad design just because we can.
Just because you don't like something doesn't necessarily have to mean that it's bad design.

I strongly prefer the current state of things to what you are proposing for instance.

Wrips
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Re: Feedback on Runic Materials

Post by Wrips » Mon Apr 05, 2021 8:25 pm

I think accessibility is always a good thing.

If a keen, masterly damask weapon is strong, isn't it better that it becomes accessible to the public at large than remaining at the hands of a few hardcore grinders?

If a good set of t3 runes allow you to extract the maximum of your multi stat build, isn't it better that it also becomes accessible to the public at large, instead of being reserved to a few people?

The argument that if something is potentially powerful it should not become popular (but it still should exist in the hands of a few!) feels strange to me.

Curve
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Re: Feedback on Runic Materials

Post by Curve » Mon Apr 05, 2021 8:52 pm

Wrips wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 8:25 pm
I think accessibility is always a good thing.
I think that accessibility is always a good thing in the real world. In a made up, online gaming world I do not. I think that somethings should be rare and hard to achieve. I think giving players some thing to strive for mechanically is a good thing.

I would rather see the removal of the highest tier of runes rather than see every character get them, and add to save and stat bloat.

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Diegovog
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Re: Feedback on Runic Materials

Post by Diegovog » Mon Apr 05, 2021 8:59 pm

Wrips wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 8:25 pm
I think accessibility is always a good thing.

If a keen, masterly damask weapon is strong, isn't it better that it becomes accessible to the public at large than remaining at the hands of a few hardcore grinders?

If a good set of t3 runes allow you to extract the maximum of your multi stat build, isn't it better that it also becomes accessible to the public at large, instead of being reserved to a few people?

The argument that if something is potentially powerful it should not become popular (but it still should exist in the hands of a few!) feels strange to me.
That's a good point.

But in reality what I believe that will happen is that instead of the cost of a masterwork blade dropping from 3mil, the lesser one increases to 180k and not only the masterwork remains inaccessible but the lesser one also becomes inaccessible for the general population. Also nobody reasonable is grinding for 16 lesser runes.

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Re: Feedback on Runic Materials

Post by Wrips » Mon Apr 05, 2021 9:23 pm

Curve wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 8:52 pm
I think giving players some thing to strive for mechanically is a good thing.
I do as well, but grinding the same few dungeons dozens of times isn't something I'm very fond of. If you enjoy that, all the power to you, I just think an alternate way would be welcome, too.
Diegovog wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 8:59 pm
That's a good point.

But in reality what I believe that will happen is that instead of the cost of a masterwork blade dropping from 3mil, the lesser one increases to 180k and not only the masterwork remains inaccessible but the lesser one also becomes inaccessible for the general population. Also nobody reasonable is grinding for 16 lesser runes.
I think increasing the chance of higher tier runes being dropped could be helpful, if that's the fear about the introduction of conversion mechanics. I just think the current options are very tedious.

magistrasa
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Re: Feedback on Runic Materials

Post by magistrasa » Mon Apr 05, 2021 10:00 pm

Let's just go full-Korean MMO and introduce weekly world boss events that require ten epics to take down and drop masterwork rune mats upon death.

I started off thinking this was a joke suggestion but then as I was typing I got some vivid flashbacks to fond memories playing ArcheAge and honestly......... If this happened I wouldn't mind it

Anyways, uh, on a strictly serious note, yeah I think upward mobility in rune mat tiers would be a good move, I don't really see any harm to it. Shop owners would still put the lower tier mats up for sale, and they honestly might see more customers interested in purchasing them as people who are out grinding runes might have an incomplete set that they want to tier up and, rather than roll the dice on a runic chest, just go ahead and buy it off the corner market. Might just be the classes I play, but nothing I've ever really wanted to craft as end game gear has ever included a lesser rune, though sometimes I might use a greater here and there. And it's definitely true that I feel like I see stacks and stacks of lesser rune mats sitting in shops and collecting dust, untouched for long periods of time. It'd be great if we could just give the lessers something to do with themselves! If not a tier-up conversion, then some other recipe use. Like special weapons and accessories or something. I dunno, I just think things can be improved from how they are, that's all.

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-XXX-
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Re: Feedback on Runic Materials

Post by -XXX- » Mon Apr 05, 2021 11:51 pm

Better gear promotes soloing = less raid-like experience.

Arelith doesn't have a shortage of challenging PvE content that incentivizes larger parties.
It's just that most players settle for grinding less challenging places that they can handle solo. It's simple math here - why waste time trying to form a party and go take risks in a challenging dungeon when there are more viable places with runic chests that can be soloed much faster? The reward in these cases is more or less the same for a much lesser time investment and without the need for splitting loot.

IMO that's the real issue here. Making top grade runic materials craftable wouldn't address it however - it'd just incentivize players to solo grind even harder to reach their newly made tangible goal ASAP.
Last edited by -XXX- on Mon Apr 05, 2021 11:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

AstralUniverse
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Re: Feedback on Runic Materials

Post by AstralUniverse » Mon Apr 05, 2021 11:54 pm

I dont know what game you guys are playing but if we can combine lesser ingredients into greater and masterwork ones exactly two things are going to happen:

1) Masterwork runes will drop in price a little bit. Something that if the Devs wanted they would just increase their drop rate so no point doing it so indirectly and have fallout affects.

2) Lesser runes will be almost none existent in shops, and their value will raise to 1/4 of the higher tier ingredient, which will in turn raise to 1/4 of THIS one's higher ingredient. Lesser runes will just be less accessible to lower level characters who want mediocre mid game gear with lesser runes (which is one of the most fun things to do with 20k gold when you're lvl 15-22 or so, and literally everyone does that, except the OP apparently).

There's absolutely no problem with how things are now when I compare it to the outcome of the suggestion to combine lowers into greaters. Right now people have no reason to hoard millions of lesser runes so their prices drop accordingly. I see their ingredients sold in shops for as low as 10k and I think the economy in regards to runes is just fine.
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Party in the forest at midnight
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Re: Feedback on Runic Materials

Post by Party in the forest at midnight » Tue Apr 06, 2021 6:35 am

Archnon wrote:
Sun Apr 04, 2021 5:43 pm
I don't like the idea of combining runes. However, I do think there is some consideration of the nature and distribution of runes. It seems, in the past year the t1 runes have become super common place. Further not all runes are created equal. Woven runes and blade runes have a ton of low level applications. At this point you might as well collect carpentry rune materials and use them as cat litter.

I would rather see a very expensive way to move runes across types. It should involve the native craft converting it into a rune template and the new craft converting it into a rune in the desired vein. It should require a high end herbalism competent (acid solvent to dissolve the old material) and a high end alchemy item to set the new rune. In this way you can take all the carpentry runes and convert them to something useful with significant RP and trade.
I like the idea of sideways trading a lot better than trading upwards. Carpentry rune materials are incredibly useless. When I played Corinne, someone traded blueleaf extract in exchange for some books I wrote. I tried selling it for ages, even for 1k it wouldn't sell. Eventually someone bought it, probably thought they could sell it for more considering people stock it in shops for 20k. An option to turn lesser blueleaf materials into other lesser materials that are actually useful would be good.

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Farlius
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Re: Feedback on Runic Materials

Post by Farlius » Tue Apr 06, 2021 12:13 pm

-XXX- wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 11:51 pm
Better gear promotes soloing = less raid-like experience.

Arelith doesn't have a shortage of challenging PvE content that incentivizes larger parties.
It's just that most players settle for grinding less challenging places that they can handle solo. It's simple math here - why waste time trying to form a party and go take risks in a challenging dungeon when there are more viable places with runic chests that can be soloed much faster? The reward in these cases is more or less the same for a much lesser time investment and without the need for splitting loot.

IMO that's the real issue here. Making top grade runic materials craftable wouldn't address it however - it'd just incentivize players to solo grind even harder to reach their newly made tangible goal ASAP.
I had intended to let this thread play out a bit more before hopping back in but I feel the need to correct.

People can and do 1 man, 2 man the runic dungeons.
This is not a widespread issue because you are falsely applying a narrative to a majority of players that come here to rp, not to grind all day, as is demonstrated in small part by the lack of gearing knowledge in this thread.
Making this process more accessible may allow more people to enjoy high end content instead of needing a 6-10 man team.

This leads me to:
AstralUniverse wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 11:54 pm
1) Masterwork runes will drop in price a little bit. Something that if the Devs wanted they would just increase their drop rate so no point doing it so indirectly and have fallout affects.

2) Lesser runes will be almost none existent in shops, and their value will raise to 1/4 of the higher tier ingredient, which will in turn raise to 1/4 of THIS one's higher ingredient. Lesser runes will just be less accessible to lower level characters who want mediocre mid game gear with lesser runes (which is one of the most fun things to do with 20k gold when you're lvl 15-22 or so, and literally everyone does that, except the OP apparently).
I will start with the first point, this is true. Except, making them more common and giving people a choice are too vastly different solutions, the latter being an attempt at solving a lack of uses.

And the second point, I am going to demonstrate a gear item you can make with 7.6k gold a try (T3 enchanting) in a basin in order of enchanting:

2 discipline.
2 spellcraft.
1 will save.
1 con.
1 primary stat.

This takes roughly 2-3 tries on average due to needing a soft 5.
If you believe 20k vs 7.6-20k is worth it for an item that has only 3 enchanted values against 5, power to you, I do not.
And yes, the vocal minority is surely everyone.
magistrasa wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 10:00 pm
Let's just go full-Korean MMO and introduce weekly world boss events that require ten epics to take down and drop masterwork rune mats upon death.

I started off thinking this was a joke suggestion but then as I was typing I got some vivid flashbacks to fond memories playing ArcheAge and honestly......... If this happened I wouldn't mind it
If they seriously made this a thing and actually put forward they were, as a team, implementing this? I would not mind! I also enjoyed archeage.

Further, I would enjoy sideways movement as seems to be a preferred suggestion here, not as much, but I would still find it useful.

Archnon
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Re: Feedback on Runic Materials

Post by Archnon » Tue Apr 06, 2021 1:14 pm

Put simply, any effort to combine lower tiers into higher tier runes directly benefits a particular play style, namely the grind to 30, gear, and go. Some people can spend a month or less getting to 30 and are frustrated that they can't find the equipment to complete their vision instantly. Others can sit in the 15-25 range for a year. Both are valid play styles. Both types of characters likely engage in robust RP. But both styles need to have equal weight on this server and those camp at 15-25 appreciate access to those low tier runes to keen a simple blade or add one stat to their cloak or armor. It gives them something to achieve economically and a slight edge in their pve range. Don't try to take that away.

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Farlius
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Re: Feedback on Runic Materials

Post by Farlius » Tue Apr 06, 2021 1:25 pm

Archnon wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 1:14 pm
Put simply, any effort to combine lower tiers into higher tier runes directly benefits a particular play style, namely the grind to 30, gear, and go. Some people can spend a month or less getting to 30 and are frustrated that they can't find the equipment to complete their vision instantly. Others can sit in the 15-25 range for a year. Both are valid play styles. Both types of characters likely engage in robust RP. But both styles need to have equal weight on this server and those camp at 15-25 appreciate access to those low tier runes to keen a simple blade or add one stat to their cloak or armor. It gives them something to achieve economically and a slight edge in their pve range. Don't try to take that away.
I agree that both play styles are valid.
However I respectfully ask you read what I post instead of reiterating countered points.
Dweomercraft achieves more for less.
16-18 is damask range.
Crafted gear often caps at 21 required levels.
These are not an issue as much as you seem to think.

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Re: Feedback on Runic Materials

Post by Edens_Fall » Tue Apr 06, 2021 3:35 pm

I will say the rarity of materials to craft Mastercraft blade runes leads many, including myself, to try and 5% a Mastercraft weapon rather then try to buy a rune at the price tag of millions. Other then that I see a pretty stable supply of all the other Mastercraft runes in shops for fair prices. I feel its really only the weapon rune that is an issue late game and it may be designed that way.

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Re: Feedback on Runic Materials

Post by Curve » Tue Apr 06, 2021 4:49 pm

Dweomercrafting/Enchanting can add a d4 elemental damage onto an essanced greensteel weapon? Can dweomercraft add uni to a basic str/con cloak without it being a hard 5%? Not every character has access to best in slot gear at the level they can use it. Sometimes you don't get a masterly damask sword at 16th level, sometimes you don't have access to a t3 enchanter willing to make the best in slot things for you, or 5% for you. Lesser runes can also make stat/stat/stat/fort items. It's simple, it's easy. There is a great value in them.

I do not find it enjoyable to make the game any more grindy than it already is. I don't grind gold to make 5% rolls, I don't grind rune chests for t3 runes. That means I don't get access to them very often, but I have possessed several since the rune system was put in just from the normal course of doing fun dungeons with my friends.

Also, lesser runes don't sell fast for a lot of reasons. I can't speak to all those reasons, but the big one that affects if I buy them or not is unreasonable pricing and not their core usefulness.

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-XXX-
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Re: Feedback on Runic Materials

Post by -XXX- » Tue Apr 06, 2021 6:22 pm

Farlius wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 12:13 pm
I had intended to let this thread play out a bit more before hopping back in but I feel the need to correct.
There's nothing wrong with soloing - I wasn't saying that soloing was bad.

The current system heavily incentivizes soloing, to an extent where ditching a party to get more mileage out of a dungeon solo becomes a strong consideration - I was saying that's bad and a glaring downside of the current system.

Making high tier runic materials craftable from lesser ones would incentivize players to grind for any kind of runic materials more aggressively - I was pointing out how your idea would have only exacerbated the issues with the current system while fixing nothing.

Farlius wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 12:13 pm
This is not a widespread issue because you are falsely applying a narrative to a majority of players that come here to rp, not to grind all day, as is demonstrated in small part by the lack of gearing knowledge in this thread.
You cannot possibly have enough evidence to support that claim.
The server's designed to cater to a wide range of playstyles and is populated by both RP focused socializers and relentlessly grinding achievers.
Your subsequent argument is based on the premise that the playstyle distribution among players active on the forums is representative of that distribution IG. It is not.
Farlius wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 12:13 pm
Making this process more accessible may allow more people to enjoy high end content instead of needing a 6-10 man team.
Your sentimental concern with the casual everyman is quite relatable, but let's stay focused on the part where you were pushing for an idea that would have ultimately introduced the means to utterly subvert and reorganize the most lucrative aspects of the established IG economy only to have it then placed into the hands of a handful of individuals with a very niche build.

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Re: Feedback on Runic Materials

Post by Anomandaris » Tue Apr 06, 2021 8:58 pm

Farlius wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 12:13 pm


Making this process more accessible may allow more people to enjoy high end content instead of needing a 6-10 man team.
Wait is this actually a problem? Who runs these dungeons with 6-10 people out of necessity? Generally any 2-3 well built lvl 30 PCs can do all content on the server, with very few exceptions. If you wana be rich and have top tier gear you're gonna have to either save gold, craft stuff and sell a bunch of it, or go hunt for treasure. That's how it should be.

This stuff is supposed to be rare (Masterwork Runes). The idea of combining up is a cool thought exercise but would be a mess in practice for all the reasons stated. Another use for lesser runic material would be interesting in that it wouldn't dry up the market as they would if combinable, they'd be used only for masterwork creation. Some unique crafting recipes would create a bit more demand and make them a tad more valuable.

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