Scrying: Warded Target shouldn't start cooldown

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ElvenEdibles
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Re: Scrying: Warded Target shouldn't start cooldown

Post by ElvenEdibles » Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:07 am

xanrael wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 10:57 pm
I suspect most people wouldn't want mind affecting spells to have a 5% chance to ignore mind immunity or death spells and death immunity.
You can breach or dispel all of these. There is counter-play to these. There is no counter-play involved with a blanket, impenetrable scry immunity. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, it's one of the few things in Arelith you have a 100% chance to succeed at, if you know how to do it (which lets be honest, isn't much of a barrier).
xanrael wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 10:57 pm
rest of post
I re-iterate, everything must go right for this to be pulled off, and it often does not. And I interject further that this is not Eve Online, here on Arelith we can report players that repetitively abuse mechanics and they can be dealt with. Unlike Eve where almost literally anything goes and these kinds of reports would fall on deaf ears.

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Re: Scrying: Warded Target shouldn't start cooldown

Post by xanrael » Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:25 am

ElvenEdibles wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:07 am
xanrael wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 10:57 pm
I suspect most people wouldn't want mind affecting spells to have a 5% chance to ignore mind immunity or death spells and death immunity.
You can breach or dispel all of these. There is counter-play to these. There is no counter-play involved with a blanket, impenetrable scry immunity. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, it's one of the few things in Arelith you have a 100% chance to succeed at, if you know how to do it (which lets be honest, isn't much of a barrier).
While you're breaching these the other side gets to act because they're aware of you and that there is a fight. Likewise even with a breach they get a saving throw for most of these. With Scrying you're acting and they're unaware because there was no interaction first, you're not even in the same zone.
ElvenEdibles wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:07 am
xanrael wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 10:57 pm
rest of post
I re-iterate, everything must go right for this to be pulled off, and it often does not. And I interject further that this is not Eve Online, here on Arelith we can report players that repetitively abuse mechanics and they can be dealt with. Unlike Eve where almost literally anything goes and these kinds of reports would fall on deaf ears.
What's the abuse here? If you're arguing that the abuse is scrying on someone to then go and gank them then I might agree with you, but then I don't see why the proposed idea of hiding the exact location and just showing the text would be bad.

If you're arguing the abuse is trying multiple times to get lucky with the 5%, from the victim's side that doesn't matter. Whether the gank squad got lucky on the first attempt or spent 2 hours at it the victim's experience is the same, they get steamrolled from out of nowhere.

magistrasa
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Re: Scrying: Warded Target shouldn't start cooldown

Post by magistrasa » Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:38 am

Jordenk wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 11:43 pm
If you're getting this treatment 9/10 times you have it coming because it's a pain in the neck to do. And if not, someone's griefing you and you should report it. If you are causing problems IC, there are, and always will be, a LARGE number of ways to track someone down and kill/kidnap them. And you should accept that.

There's nothing wrong with scrying showing the targets location. It's perfectly reasonable and canonically accurate that you'd be able to perceive the surroundings and go look for that area. I don't get why we're trying to protect our characters so aggressively. It's ok if they die, really. Use it to create interesting RP and drive the story forward. Punish rule breakers don't soften what is a conflicted and violent setting. All these hyperbolic examples of really shady metagaming, rule breaking, griefing or just horrible behavior doesn't get fixed by a mechanical changes. It gets fixed with player bans and rule enforcement.
These are my feelings exactly - which is why it's so distressing to see a tool ostensibly meant to drive roleplay, instead getting hamstrung to satisfy hyperbolized fears. Fears over what's honestly perfectly legitimate avenues of roleplay in the first place! As-is, for a vast majority of diviners, scry can pretty much only be used to organize surprise visits, ill-intentioned or no. Even if you buy the developer justification that gank squads are Unambiguously Bad, the changes to scry mechanics have done next to nothing to address that concern, and instead just made it pretty much worthless in all other regards. You're punished even your scrying is unsuccessful, which just discourages even bothering to attempt to use the ability. If nothing else changes about scry, at least remove the 10 minute cooldown on a failed casting.

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ElvenEdibles
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Re: Scrying: Warded Target shouldn't start cooldown

Post by ElvenEdibles » Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:42 am

xanrael wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:25 am
With Scrying you're acting and they're unaware because there was no interaction first, you're not even in the same zone
If you get passed that 5% barrier. If. Also I'm not sure if it's FOIG or not but there is at least one IC way I know of to detect if you're being scried.
xanrael wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:25 am
What's the abuse here?
The abuse would be ganksquadding the same person over and over again, after managing to pierce the 5%. They would be behaving a manner detrimental to server health by abusing a mechanic's capabilities in a manner not condusive to collaborative storytelling. Or are you saying people are really afraid of being killed once? Because that just sounds like more 'I must win' mentality.

Again, it's 5%.

5%.

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Re: Scrying: Warded Target shouldn't start cooldown

Post by xanrael » Mon Apr 19, 2021 1:15 am

ElvenEdibles wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:42 am
The abuse would be ganksquadding the same person over and over again, after managing to pierce the 5%. They would be behaving a manner detrimental to server health by abusing a mechanic's capabilities in a manner not condusive to collaborative storytelling. Or are you saying people are really afraid of being killed once? Because that just sounds like more 'I must win' mentality.

Again, it's 5%.

5%.
Is it specifically only if you use scry every day on the same person that it's abusive, so if they alternate scry and then find them mundanely that's cool? I'd assume not but groups already will spend time killing each other daily, there is already the motivation there for that.

Also if we go off the idea that it is only 5%, and it's bad manners to retry, is there really any strong value in adding it? To the one scrying 95% of the time they're seeing no difference than the current system.

I'll add I'm not anti-scry, but I think that it should have a complete overhaul with thoughts on what is the ideal use case, how it could be abused, etc if we're looking to change the current Rock-Paper-Scissors dynamic as people will game the system.

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Re: Scrying: Warded Target shouldn't start cooldown

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Mon Apr 19, 2021 5:55 am

magistrasa wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:38 am
Jordenk wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 11:43 pm
If you're getting this treatment 9/10 times you have it coming because it's a pain in the neck to do. And if not, someone's griefing you and you should report it. If you are causing problems IC, there are, and always will be, a LARGE number of ways to track someone down and kill/kidnap them. And you should accept that.

There's nothing wrong with scrying showing the targets location. It's perfectly reasonable and canonically accurate that you'd be able to perceive the surroundings and go look for that area. I don't get why we're trying to protect our characters so aggressively. It's ok if they die, really. Use it to create interesting RP and drive the story forward. Punish rule breakers don't soften what is a conflicted and violent setting. All these hyperbolic examples of really shady metagaming, rule breaking, griefing or just horrible behavior doesn't get fixed by a mechanical changes. It gets fixed with player bans and rule enforcement.
These are my feelings exactly - which is why it's so distressing to see a tool ostensibly meant to drive roleplay, instead getting hamstrung to satisfy hyperbolized fears. Fears over what's honestly perfectly legitimate avenues of roleplay in the first place! As-is, for a vast majority of diviners, scry can pretty much only be used to organize surprise visits, ill-intentioned or no. Even if you buy the developer justification that gank squads are Unambiguously Bad, the changes to scry mechanics have done next to nothing to address that concern, and instead just made it pretty much worthless in all other regards. You're punished even your scrying is unsuccessful, which just discourages even bothering to attempt to use the ability. If nothing else changes about scry, at least remove the 10 minute cooldown on a failed casting.
To start with, I agree with all of this, and much of the rest of Jordenk's post that prompted it. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it has always been the administration and development team's stance that no one deserves to be safe from everything all the time, because Arelith is a dangerous frontier and Bad Things Happen to Good Adventurers.

The biggest potential for abuse, depending on your definition of abuse versus what constitutes legitimate, meaningful, involved RP, is if a team of scriers get together and chain their attempts together every X minutes, where X multiplied by their membership number equals the total cooldown of the scry effect, all in a concerted effort to track down/spy on a target/group.

However, this leads back to the start of my post about my mentality- what on earth Arelith did the target do to justify this expense of resources and effort? And isn't a group of characters coming together like that to form an IC group a good thing?

What is being called abuse here sounds like a fairly interesting story to me, or at least the beginnings of one.

The most difficult thing I see here is where to draw the line on scrying being griefing- I think an idea that cleaves closest to established rules would be something like, you can't scry on someone for at least 24 hours after a PvP engagement with them, or after an engagement precipitated by your scrying of them.

With all of that said, I don't think there should be a 5% chance for a ward to auto-fail, either. :geek: Sorry, purist, remember?
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Watchful Glare
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Re: Scrying: Warded Target shouldn't start cooldown

Post by Watchful Glare » Mon Apr 19, 2021 8:28 am

DangerDolphin wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 3:14 am
First of all, wanted to agree with the OP that failed scry shouldn't both burn components and trigger cooldown.

On the matter of scry immunity bard song, which I'm directly responsible for, bards already have this through one of their spells - and it lasts 3 times longer without metamagic. The spell is also useful in combat, whereas the song forces you to swap from a battle song to activate.

The overarching issues with scry though:

Risk

If you want to spy on someone by following them, you run the risk of being spotted. They could feed you false information, kill you, or trap you somewhere. Each round has a spot/listen check, and you have to weigh how long you want to listen and learn for, versus the chance of being seen. How close you want to get, against missing whispers. The concern that someone else will turn up to the meeting who has great detection. That if you're killed, you won't be able to act on the information.

If you're scrying, you hit the button and off you go. You can only be caught by other scriers, and even then it doesn't matter, as you're safe in your room.

Counterplay

If you're being scried as a mundane, you have no warning - until the gank squad turns up and kills you. You can certainly block it afterwards, by carrying around four or five crafted cloaks, but really it's too late by that point.

There is of course 'counterplay' by using blocking, but that's not so much counterplay as outright walling yourself off.

What scry is good at

Ganking people. Change servers, check the player list, find your enemy who's off doing some PvE in part of the server you would normally not think to look for them, and PK them while they're injured. This doesn't really generate any RP, but more meaningless PvP - PK is the endgame to any conflict - it can't escalate past that.

Another thing it's great at is spotting necromancers and warlocks PvEing. Fantastic to spot them when they're low level and have little access to countermeasures, as the spells expire quickly. Screwing over low levels is exactly what you don't want epics doing with their buckets of spare time.

What Scry is bad at

It's terrible for listening to plots and plans. Provided someone is actually silly enough to not use countermeasures, or go to a scry-proof room, it will last a few minutes and you'll get a snippet out of context. This isn't like a movie where the hero listens to the villains for one minute and is lucky enough to hear YES, WE'LL PLANT THE BOMB AT THE EIFFEL TOWER AT NOON TOMORROW, HEY, WHAT WAS THAT NOISE?
You're far more likely to get *Scratches nose* Yes indeed.

Chances are, you won't often get anything that can be acted on in a fun way.

The solution

Scry should have back and forth counterplay, require effort and provide clues and conversations.

Let anyone have the means to detect it, so you're not sure if you're getting great information, or being fed lies because they noticed you.

Let people lay traps for scriers to reveal their identities, or cause a backlash effect on them.

Let it last longer, 30-60 minutes, but hide the location and identities. You just hear voices discussing plans, not find out where they are so you can go and kill them. Give clues about who they are, where they are. It's a dark room or a bright forest, one figure is female, another is male and sounds orcish. Link them to figures from the deck of stars.

Remove the outright blocking of scry, have silent rolls to defend against and penetrate it depending on the strength of the defences. Once scry is no longer overpowered, this becomes feasible and reasonable. Nobody can be entirely certain they're not overheard when they speak, but the longer the scrier listens, the more risk they're detected.

If you want the current scry of zoning in on top of someone, you should have to do something risky, like getting a cut of their hair that only lasts 24 hours, or asking them to carry a ring you enchanted, so you can watch allies freely.
This stands out to me and it has the ring of truth to it. However much one might try to suggest that getting a kill-squad going is hard and it requires some manner of supreme coordination, it really doesn't. It requires a mage, and some pals. That's it. Pals that will, arguably, already be around anyways because if they're pals you met them on the timezone you play in. The mage just scries the target every once in a while when they feel like it and when they hit jackpot (They're doing PvE content, or are not in the middle of a hub) they just send a few speedies to your pals, get those available in 5 min and go in before they can finish their PvE content.

It ain't Ocean's Eleven but the opposite.

This is all, also, assuming everyone's pretty casual about it and no one dropped an @everyone in a private server when they learned about it IC.

Also assuming it's not used to insta-scry others the moment they see that Player Handle has joined as a player in the server, such as a traditional Surface player going to the UD, or an UD one going to the Surface, and so on.

It has been brought up during some intermission in this thread that Stealth is a viable way to spy on others; the truth is it really isn't unless the person you're spying on purposedly wants to be spied on (for the sake of RP), doesn't care, or simply is not very good at it. Any conversation that's worth listening to is going to be done indoors, after a True Seeing spell that will detect you even if your Hide/MS are in the 120's. One before the door is opened to watch who's going in, so no stealther can try to dash in, and once again when people are inside the room, in case somehow they managed to. Then the mage will cast scry ward, and that's it.

Any other conversation that is worth listening to will sometimes be said out loud in very public places and at that point Stealth is not even relevant to the topic at hand.

The only "Spy/stealth" RP to be had currently is in socially infiltrating groups and being savvy with it to not get burned. I find the "git gud" arguments to be pretty flaky and partial.

I think the solutions would be good, and here is my addition.

Proposal:

Two different types of scrying. User chooses which to use.

First type: Scry location.
Mage attempts to discern the location of the target. Basically works like the current one. It's what your cookie cutter kill squad uses.

Second type: Scry person.
This one last a lot longer but you get no information on the area about where this person is, or who. You just see them, and hear what they're saying, other people show up as indistinct voices, lasting 30~60 min enough to see an entire scene, an entire conversation, with context and all. Very useful for RP scrying, but virtually useless for anything else.

Bonus track: Specialist Diviners can know who tried to scry in an area they've warded and from where.
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Cybren
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Re: Scrying: Warded Target shouldn't start cooldown

Post by Cybren » Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:51 am

I feel like one of the problems with scrying is that there's really no way, short of looking at the in game player list at the right time and being very meta about it, of identifying who was scrying you in game. You can certainly try to find out via role play, but try is the operative word there.

Xarge VI
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Re: Scrying: Warded Target shouldn't start cooldown

Post by Xarge VI » Mon Apr 19, 2021 2:40 pm

I would actually love a "Crystal Ball" fixture or something like that that projects the conversation of the designated target. It would allow even those longer scrying as DangerDolphin presented as the diviner can go do other things if the conversation is boring or nonexistant.

I would love to be able to turn on the 'spyshow' from my crystal ball and huddle over it with my nefarious associates while we plot our own schemes that another crystal ball is probably tuned in on and another diviner huddles over it with their nefarious associates while they plot their own schemes.

One of the things I dislike about the scry as it is that the diviner loses all buffs. For most arcanists that means instant encumbrance and for a hoarder like me frantic gear swapping and inventory tetris, heavy encumbrance to a secluded nook, rest and rebuff while praying the bovine assassins won't ambush my char this time and then another set of frantic gear swapping.

Granted I mostly use scry to ambush people- into uncomfortable conversations.

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Re: Scrying: Warded Target shouldn't start cooldown

Post by -XXX- » Mon Apr 19, 2021 4:11 pm

If scrying from the safety of the quarters is an issue, then why not allow scrying only from certain locations that are publicly accessible (i'd pitch doing the same to -yoink TBH).

Anomandaris
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Re: Scrying: Warded Target shouldn't start cooldown

Post by Anomandaris » Mon Apr 19, 2021 4:45 pm

Watchful Glare wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 8:28 am

It has been brought up during some intermission in this thread that Stealth is a viable way to spy on others; the truth is it really isn't unless the person you're spying on purposedly wants to be spied on (for the sake of RP), doesn't care, or simply is not very good at it. Any conversation that's worth listening to is going to be done indoors, after a True Seeing spell that will detect you even if your Hide/MS are in the 120's. One before the door is opened to watch who's going in, so no stealther can try to dash in, and once again when people are inside the room, in case somehow they managed to. Then the mage will cast scry ward, and that's it.

The only "Spy/stealth" RP to be had currently is in socially infiltrating groups and being savvy with it to not get burned. I find the "git gud" arguments to be pretty flaky and partial.
That’s a bold statement. Respectfully, I can’t even begin to tell you how not true it is. It sounds like it’d be true, or “should” be true, but it’s not. How do I know? Well my friend, the countless hours and hours I’ve spent following people around, listening to conversations behind locked doors and so on. I also know I am not even remotely the only one as I speak regularly with others ic about things learned doing just this!!

Also there are ways to deal with the TS thing depending on the place.

I get been caught following someone into a locked quarter or creeping on a secret meeting perhaps 1/20 times.

I don’t want to presume and I’m curious, are you saying this as someone who’s played a stealth PC for a long time and been unable to find regular, valuable spy opportunities? Or is this how you visualize it going with the available countermeasures and reasonable logic?

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Re: Scrying: Warded Target shouldn't start cooldown

Post by Watchful Glare » Mon Apr 19, 2021 5:58 pm

Jordenk wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 4:45 pm
Watchful Glare wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 8:28 am

It has been brought up during some intermission in this thread that Stealth is a viable way to spy on others; the truth is it really isn't unless the person you're spying on purposedly wants to be spied on (for the sake of RP), doesn't care, or simply is not very good at it. Any conversation that's worth listening to is going to be done indoors, after a True Seeing spell that will detect you even if your Hide/MS are in the 120's. One before the door is opened to watch who's going in, so no stealther can try to dash in, and once again when people are inside the room, in case somehow they managed to. Then the mage will cast scry ward, and that's it.

The only "Spy/stealth" RP to be had currently is in socially infiltrating groups and being savvy with it to not get burned. I find the "git gud" arguments to be pretty flaky and partial.
That’s a bold statement. Respectfully, I can’t even begin to tell you how not true it is. It sounds like it’d be true, or “should” be true, but it’s not. How do I know? Well my friend, the countless hours and hours I’ve spent following people around, listening to conversations behind locked doors and so on. I also know I am not even remotely the only one as I speak regularly with others ic about things learned doing just this!!

Also there are ways to deal with the TS thing depending on the place.

I get been caught following someone into a locked quarter or creeping on a secret meeting perhaps 1/20 times.

I don’t want to presume and I’m curious, are you saying this as someone who’s played a stealth PC for a long time and been unable to find regular, valuable spy opportunities? Or is this how you visualize it going with the available countermeasures and reasonable logic?
Respectfully my friend, my brethren, my fellow player, that is straight up untrue in my experience. Or, if true, fits into the rare category of players who purposedly let their characters be spied on because they desire it for the sake of the RP they explicitly want to pursue. You speak of two different things. "Following people around" on one hand, in Stealth, which I will agree is perfectly viable, unless they haste and run, naturally. Or Portal away. But that is a given. Nevermind how conductive this is to anything, you can as much follow someone in Stealth as without Stealth.

Listening to actual conversations of relevance behind locked doors "and so on" however? That's where I have to call it. It seems we have had vastly different experiences. In fact, I am in awe at your prowess and I would very much like to know how would you, personally, avoid a True Seeing spell cast before a door to a quarter opens with the person staring down at the corridor and then letting others walk in before closing it, before walking inside and casting it again.

Bear in mind, these are no NPCs or Skyrim guards. There's no convenient fixture right next to the door for someone in stealth to hide behind.

The second True Seeing inside, if there are, for some reason, fixtures that can be used to hide behind that are not placed against the walls, would be used to look behind it. Which is a big if there even are, depending on the room the meeting is taking place in, and assuming you found a way to avoid the True Seeing while going in, by walking in front of the person with True Sight.

Have you played a Stealth PC for a long time and has it been a consistent experience for you that people do not use True Seeing in this manner (or at all) when discussing sensitive information, going into quarters, guilds, or such, or is it how you envisioning it happening in an ideal scenario?

I have indeed played a stealth PC for a long time, and I'd rather avoid "git gud" vague counter-arguments that amount to "Well you can, and it's perfecly viable because of (unspecified reasons), you just have to (Get good)". It makes me believe those people, at worse don't play a Stealth character at all. Or perhaps they played one for a really long time... Many years ago. Or at best, which might very well be the case with you-

Perhaps it is simply that you and I have had vastly different experiences, and the measures to prevent spying in your case do not involve characters who put some minimal effort into not being spied on. They do not use True Seeing, or summons with it. They don't go to quarters or a second location to discuss sensitive things where those things can be applied. They don't speak in whispers. They do not ward their meetings against scrying.

Therefore this is true to them, and this is what they have experienced. No lie there. Just not what I or others have. And it creates this dissonance of "What on earth are you talking about, are we playing the same game?"

After all, your mileage may vary.
Biz here was a constant subliminal hum, and death the accepted punishment for laziness, carelessness, lack of grace, the failure to heed the demands of an intricate protocol.

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Re: Scrying: Warded Target shouldn't start cooldown

Post by Anomandaris » Mon Apr 19, 2021 7:49 pm

Watchful Glare wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 5:58 pm
Jordenk wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 4:45 pm
Watchful Glare wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 8:28 am

It has been brought up during some intermission in this thread that Stealth is a viable way to spy on others; the truth is it really isn't unless the person you're spying on purposedly wants to be spied on (for the sake of RP), doesn't care, or simply is not very good at it. Any conversation that's worth listening to is going to be done indoors, after a True Seeing spell that will detect you even if your Hide/MS are in the 120's. One before the door is opened to watch who's going in, so no stealther can try to dash in, and once again when people are inside the room, in case somehow they managed to. Then the mage will cast scry ward, and that's it.

The only "Spy/stealth" RP to be had currently is in socially infiltrating groups and being savvy with it to not get burned. I find the "git gud" arguments to be pretty flaky and partial.
That’s a bold statement. Respectfully, I can’t even begin to tell you how not true it is. It sounds like it’d be true, or “should” be true, but it’s not. How do I know? Well my friend, the countless hours and hours I’ve spent following people around, listening to conversations behind locked doors and so on. I also know I am not even remotely the only one as I speak regularly with others ic about things learned doing just this!!

Also there are ways to deal with the TS thing depending on the place.

I get been caught following someone into a locked quarter or creeping on a secret meeting perhaps 1/20 times.

I don’t want to presume and I’m curious, are you saying this as someone who’s played a stealth PC for a long time and been unable to find regular, valuable spy opportunities? Or is this how you visualize it going with the available countermeasures and reasonable logic?
Respectfully my friend, my brethren, my fellow player, that is straight up untrue in my experience. Or, if true, fits into the rare category of players who purposedly let their characters be spied on because they desire it for the sake of the RP they explicitly want to pursue. You speak of two different things. "Following people around" on one hand, in Stealth, which I will agree is perfectly viable, unless they haste and run, naturally. Or Portal away. But that is a given. Nevermind how conductive this is to anything, you can as much follow someone in Stealth as without Stealth.

Listening to actual conversations of relevance behind locked doors "and so on" however? That's where I have to call it. It seems we have had vastly different experiences. In fact, I am in awe at your prowess and I would very much like to know how would you, personally, avoid a True Seeing spell cast before a door to a quarter opens with the person staring down at the corridor and then letting others walk in before closing it, before walking inside and casting it again.

Bear in mind, these are no NPCs or Skyrim guards. There's no convenient fixture right next to the door for someone in stealth to hide behind.

The second True Seeing inside, if there are, for some reason, fixtures that can be used to hide behind that are not placed against the walls, would be used to look behind it. Which is a big if there even are, depending on the room the meeting is taking place in, and assuming you found a way to avoid the True Seeing while going in, by walking in front of the person with True Sight.

Have you played a Stealth PC for a long time and has it been a consistent experience for you that people do not use True Seeing in this manner (or at all) when discussing sensitive information, going into quarters, guilds, or such, or is it how you envisioning it happening in an ideal scenario?

I have indeed played a stealth PC for a long time, and I'd rather avoid "git gud" vague counter-arguments that amount to "Well you can, and it's perfecly viable because of (unspecified reasons), you just have to (Get good)". It makes me believe those people, at worse don't play a Stealth character at all. Or perhaps they played one for a really long time... Many years ago. Or at best, which might very well be the case with you-

Perhaps it is simply that you and I have had vastly different experiences, and the measures to prevent spying in your case do not involve characters who put some minimal effort into not being spied on. They do not use True Seeing, or summons with it. They don't go to quarters or a second location to discuss sensitive things where those things can be applied. They don't speak in whispers. They do not ward their meetings against scrying.

Therefore this is true to them, and this is what they have experienced. No lie there. Just not what I or others have. And it creates this dissonance of "What on earth are you talking about, are we playing the same game?"

After all, your mileage may vary.
I will say in the last 8 months or so people have gotten a little better about it. Players learn and the community evolves. But still...it’s not consistent.

Last 3 of 4 PCs I’ve played have been Stealthers. Most recently a high investment rogue I’ve mained for last 2+ years RL. I find people are generally not that thorough with their countermeasures. It happens, but people get lazy or just inconsistent. Or there’s a weak link in the group who routinely never does it etc.

Guess our experiences vary. I’ve had great success as have my peers infiltrating conversations behind locked doors and in private places involving an extremely large number of factions. So either I’m lucky, lying, gifted, or the literally dozens and dozens ppl I’ve spied on are all just equally negligent (don’t think that’s true). I’ve been caught but I feel like I get away with murder (that too) with how flagrant some of it is. And if it weren’t all IC info I’d imagine you’d be surprised at the list names and factions.

But yah, my personal experience is a veritable treasure trove of info and opportunity through stealthing around. And as much as I enjoy a good debate, it’s just my personal experience. You sound very knowledgeable on the mechanics and gameplay so I dunno. Either way thanks for the engaging discussion! :)

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Re: Scrying: Warded Target shouldn't start cooldown

Post by Hazard » Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:06 pm

I stand by my belief that scry is far too short and still think 5 minutes (7 for specialist wizard diviners) should be the duration of the scry.

I think getting through defenses 5% of the time wouldn't be necessary if the duration was increased, both would be overkill.
I'd rather the longer duration than the 5% breach.

Having a chance (5%?) to identify WHO is scrying you should be possible only by other ESF: Divination PCs. This would be a good counter. If you are smart and don't let the enemy know who is and isn't a seer, you could end up catching their seers! It would be fun for both parties I think, but I'd only like to see this introduced if the duration is made longer first.

I don't want to see CD initiated on failed attempts, but piety/spell component cost seems acceptable and make sense imo.

Just to clarify, because people seem to think any request to make scry better is an automatic complaint about the recent changes. No, I love the recent changes. I hate that drunk-rest-scrying was a thing. I love that it's gone.

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Re: Scrying: Warded Target shouldn't start cooldown

Post by Ork » Tue Apr 20, 2021 5:10 pm

Scry right now has little to no consequence. The chance of discovery should increase proportional to the power of the ability. It's a powerful tool with 0 drawbacks. A good place would be to increase the rate of detection for all characters - *a magical hum to the air* could be displayed for mundanes to the ability to identify at who's scrying for more dedicated casters based on will saves.

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Re: Scrying: Warded Target shouldn't start cooldown

Post by -XXX- » Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:18 pm

Ork wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 5:10 pm
Scry right now has little to no consequence.
Ork wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 5:10 pm
It's a powerful tool with 0 drawbacks.
These two statements contradict each other.

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Re: Scrying: Warded Target shouldn't start cooldown

Post by Inordinate » Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:27 pm

-XXX- wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:18 pm
Ork wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 5:10 pm
Scry right now has little to no consequence.
Ork wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 5:10 pm
It's a powerful tool with 0 drawbacks.
These two statements contradict each other.
Let's not devolve to this, please. Be better.
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Re: Scrying: Warded Target shouldn't start cooldown

Post by Anomandaris » Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:35 pm

Ork wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 5:10 pm
Scry right now has little to no consequence. The chance of discovery should increase proportional to the power of the ability. It's a powerful tool with 0 drawbacks. A good place would be to increase the rate of detection for all characters - *a magical hum to the air* could be displayed for mundanes to the ability to identify at who's scrying for more dedicated casters based on will saves.
This would just be a massive nerf to scry as saves are super high, unless the DC was in the 50's +

People would just stop talking and then the already very low percentage chance moment when you've actually successfully scried would be rendered useless and they'd ward right after the scry duration was over.

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Re: Scrying: Warded Target shouldn't start cooldown

Post by Ork » Wed Apr 21, 2021 5:44 pm

-XXX- wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:18 pm
Ork wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 5:10 pm
Scry right now has little to no consequence.
Ork wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 5:10 pm
It's a powerful tool with 0 drawbacks.
These two statements contradict each other.
It has no draw backs, which means the scrier can't be consequenced. Really stretching my brain on how that could be misinterpreted, but I'm glad you brought it up in case others were similarly confused.

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Re: Scrying: Warded Target shouldn't start cooldown

Post by Hazard » Wed Apr 21, 2021 6:22 pm

Ork wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 5:44 pm
-XXX- wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:18 pm
Ork wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 5:10 pm
Scry right now has little to no consequence.
Ork wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 5:10 pm
It's a powerful tool with 0 drawbacks.
These two statements contradict each other.
It has no draw backs, which means the scrier can't be consequenced. Really stretching my brain on how that could be misinterpreted, but I'm glad you brought it up in case others were similarly confused.
I disagree. Scry has massive drawbacks. It's crappy and makes you annoyed.
You spend a lot of your IRL (mortal, human) lifespan to get, typically nothing in return.
That's a drawback.

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Re: Scrying: Warded Target shouldn't start cooldown

Post by -XXX- » Thu Apr 22, 2021 8:38 am

Ork wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 5:44 pm
It has no draw backs, which means the scrier can't be consequenced. Really stretching my brain on how that could be misinterpreted, but I'm glad you brought it up in case others were similarly confused.
There's a difference between saying that "scrying has no consequence" and that "the scrier can't be consequenced".
There's no confusion here, but you worded it poorly as fairly valid arguments could be made supporting both statements:

"scrying has no consequence"
Merely watching someone really doesn't have many consequences. Scrying causes no CC effects nor does it deal damage. Unless further actions are taken, the scrying session amounts to nothing. The information obtained is usually quite unactionable, so go figure.
Considering how this ability is obtained at the cost of forgoing other skills that tangibly contribute to the build's mechanical power, one could say that this is a rather considerable drawback.

"the scrier can't be consequenced"
This is true. Not being able to tell who is watching your character this way is probably the most unfair thing about scrying.
IMO coders accepting this as a given fact about scrying and using it as an excuse to implement knee-jerk nerfs and limitations around scrying rather than actually addressing it by trying to figure out a way to reveal the diviner's identity doesn't help here.
I think that's one of the reasons why this topic can seem so heated here - on one hand we see the coders running a fairly cool ability into the ground while at the same time the most unfair aspect of it remains unaddressed.

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Re: Scrying: Warded Target shouldn't start cooldown

Post by Watchful Glare » Thu Apr 22, 2021 2:51 pm

Ork wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 5:44 pm
-XXX- wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:18 pm
Ork wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 5:10 pm
Scry right now has little to no consequence.
Ork wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 5:10 pm
It's a powerful tool with 0 drawbacks.
These two statements contradict each other.
It has no draw backs, which means the scrier can't be consequenced. Really stretching my brain on how that could be misinterpreted, but I'm glad you brought it up in case others were similarly confused.

I'm similarly confused as well, both statements seem to go hand in hand. Regardless I agree with the principle that it has no risks, other than the waste of components and/or moments, at the present time. The character performing the scrying is not putting itself into any risks or leaving any trail.

I would also add that as it is, it can be a dissatisfying experience for the scrier as well, as I expanded upon in my previous replies.
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Re: Scrying: Warded Target shouldn't start cooldown

Post by Anomandaris » Thu Apr 22, 2021 6:26 pm

-XXX- wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 8:38 am

IMO coders accepting this as a given fact about scrying and using it as an excuse to implement knee-jerk nerfs and limitations around scrying rather than actually addressing it by trying to figure out a way to reveal the diviner's identity doesn't help here.
I think that's one of the reasons why this topic can seem so heated here - on one hand we see the coders running a fairly cool ability into the ground while at the same time the most unfair aspect of it remains unaddressed.
Some good points but making it easier to tell you’re being scried, let alone by whom specifically, would be the final nail in the coffin for this ability.

Knowing you’re being scried is another failure condition that results in zero information gain, as the person knows you’re watching. So it’s only useful when you’re maybe running a gank squad and can get to them fast. I think it’s cool that diviner’s can tell but otherwise would hate to see this expanded.

Adding the fact that you could find out “who” is scrying through some roll or check would just make it EVEN worse. And what would you get, their true name? That’s a major consequence for many PCs, I mean MAJOR if you’re running a double life. Maybe you could know what region they’re in or what race, really general info, but otherwise it would turn scry from tedious, fairly ineffective and low ROI to a pretty terrible ability.

I’ve found out who scried me on multiple occasions as a mundane PC without even knowing I was being scried at the time, all by good old fashioned means. They take action, write a report or any number of scenarios that cause them to show up on your radar. With some counter intel rp you find out oh, this persons doing this, it was a private meeting, they know “x” they prob scried me. It just take some rp and effort. Scry becomes impactful when you 1) find info and 2) do something with that info. So that action (fairly often) presents the opportunity for the person being scried to figure out who’s involved. Furthermore, who can scry is often very easily discoverable IC info, so it’s not hard to guess who might be spying on you.

If we start making it possible either through RNG or a check to find out who’s scrying you, just delete it imo, it’s no longer filling its role and becomes just bad from a feat/resource/risk to value standpoint. But I suppose you could make countermeasures less effective, increase duration, improve div in other ways and give this awareness at the end of the scry or some time into it to mitigate it. It’d be hard to implement this tactfully tho without destroying its utility.

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Re: Scrying: Warded Target shouldn't start cooldown

Post by Curve » Thu Apr 22, 2021 7:01 pm

Jordenk wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 6:26 pm
Some good points but making it easier to tell you’re being scried, let alone by whom specifically, would be the final nail in the coffin for this ability.

Knowing you’re being scried is another failure condition that results in zero information gain, as the person knows you’re watching. So it’s only useful when you’re maybe running a gank squad and can get to them fast. I think it’s cool that diviner’s can tell but otherwise would hate to see this expanded.

Adding the fact that you could find out “who” is scrying through some roll or check would just make it EVEN worse. And what would you get, their true name? That’s a major consequence for many PCs, I mean MAJOR if you’re running a double life. Maybe you could know what region they’re in or what race, really general info, but otherwise it would turn scry from tedious, fairly ineffective and low ROI to a pretty terrible ability.
This feels extreme. What you are saying is that there is absolutely no counter-measure or way to make scrying at least somewhat interactive that would not ruin scrying. Is that your opinion? Do you have any ideas how to introduce reasonable counter-measures or ways to make scrying more interactive?
Jordenk wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 6:26 pm
I’ve found out who scried me on multiple occasions as a mundane PC without even knowing I was being scried at the time, all by good old fashioned means. They take action, write a report or any number of scenarios that cause them to show up on your radar. With some counter intel rp you find out oh, this persons doing this, it was a private meeting, they know “x” they prob scried me. It just take some rp and effort. Scry becomes impactful when you 1) find info and 2) do something with that info. So that action (fairly often) presents the opportunity for the person being scried to figure out who’s involved. Furthermore, who can scry is often very easily discoverable IC info, so it’s not hard to guess who might be spying on you.
It's hard to base server policy or changes on one person's experience with things like you say above being easy. I don't doubt that you can see a world where not everyone's experience is the same as yours. Those players have to be accounted for too.
Jordenk wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 6:26 pm
it’s no longer filling its role and becomes just bad from a feat/resource/risk to value standpoint.
Two questions:
1) What is the role of scrying?
2) What is an acceptable ratio of feat/resource/risk to value?

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Re: Scrying: Warded Target shouldn't start cooldown

Post by -XXX- » Thu Apr 22, 2021 7:04 pm

Perhaps if any PC were to be alerted that they've been just scried AFTER the scrying session has just concluded with a random chance of revealing the diviner, then:
:arrow: it would have removed the issue with people stopping whatever they're doing as they do when they learn about scrying attempts in real time
:arrow: it would have removed the gank-squad problem, as the target would have been alerted that it might have been a good time for a change of scenery
:arrow: it would have introduced a risk to scrying

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