Remove "Howl" from Wolf Animal Comp

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Glowing Mushroom
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Remove "Howl" from Wolf Animal Comp

Post by Glowing Mushroom » Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:36 pm

At first I thought this was a neat little feature. But by reaching epics, the wolf animal comp will use the fear howl 6 times in a row for a whopping DC of 15. All the while simply standing there and getting beat up on. It will also break its combat AI, as the howl has a short range. If you use the AI Tool to instruct the wolf to attack, but it's too far away and wants to howl, it will just stand there. You have to instruct it to get closer first and then attack.

I think it would be better to just have this removed entirely. It uses up all of its howls to no effect until next rest and that's it.

This howl feature really just seems a broken mess! Would be nice to see it removed entirely or reworked. Perhaps capable of being used once per fight with a decent DC, instead of a capped use limit that are all blown after you summon the wolf and then not used again til after next rest.

Any more thoughts on this howl from you guys?
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Dalek Caan
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Re: Remove "Howl" from Wolf Animal Comp

Post by Dalek Caan » Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:45 pm

Just a minor addendum: The same thing applies to the spider companion and its web tossing ability... thingy.

It's... an odd thing, especially since sometimes it works, other times, the spider just stands still waving its legs all over the place. But doing nothing otherwise.

Didn't check now, but there may be more animal companions with similar issues.

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Re: Remove "Howl" from Wolf Animal Comp

Post by Glowing Mushroom » Mon Apr 19, 2021 1:30 pm

Dalek Caan wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:45 pm
Just a minor addendum: The same thing applies to the spider companion and its web tossing ability... thingy.

It's... an odd thing, especially since sometimes it works, other times, the spider just stands still waving its legs all over the place. But doing nothing otherwise.

Didn't check now, but there may be more animal companions with similar issues.
I really like the idea of animal comps have unique abilities, but they shouldn't have a capped use just to be blown after rest.

Setting them on a CD to be used once at the beginning of a fight and perhaps again a few rounds in would be nice. Otherwise you're just waiting for it to get used up so the companion actually begins to fight.
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Re: Remove "Howl" from Wolf Animal Comp

Post by DM Rex » Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:55 am

Given that these are a variety of sections to the core of the game I will let the contributors either answer or enable it as they desire. This may or may not be addressed, no guarantees.

Often summoned creatures regardless of type will have abilities and spells they may want to cast, but due to line of sight and slain enemies may enter loops of behavior instead of using the ability correctly or tossing the spell etc etc. You may be better off in those instances using the associate tool to manually reposition and control the summon.

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Re: Remove "Howl" from Wolf Animal Comp

Post by Kuma » Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:42 am

DM Rex wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:55 am
Given that these are a variety of sections to the core of the game I will let the contributors either answer or enable it as they desire. This may or may not be addressed, no guarantees.

Often summoned creatures regardless of type will have abilities and spells they may want to cast, but due to line of sight and slain enemies may enter loops of behavior instead of using the ability correctly or tossing the spell etc etc. You may be better off in those instances using the associate tool to manually reposition and control the summon.
With summons like the Dread Mummy and Word of Faith (once per x minutes), that's maybe a thing, but these are default summons with multiple casts per day of [x] useless ability. Repositioning is likely to do little but NOT use up that cast per day and just delay them burning through the useless casts, and isn't all that useful.
Glowing Mushroom wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 1:30 pm
I really like the idea of animal comps have unique abilities, but they shouldn't have a capped use just to be blown after rest.

Setting them on a CD to be used once at the beginning of a fight and perhaps again a few rounds in would be nice. Otherwise you're just waiting for it to get used up so the companion actually begins to fight.
Upping the DC (drastically) of these special abilities, capping them to 1/[x cooldown time, i.e: "roughly once per fight"] a-la WoF on the dread mummy would be fun, but as we've seen on multiple threads on undead summons being "useless" (they aren't, you're just using the tool wrong) this may be less popular than you think.

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Re: Remove "Howl" from Wolf Animal Comp

Post by Glowing Mushroom » Tue Apr 20, 2021 12:54 pm

Kuma wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:42 am
Upping the DC (drastically) of these special abilities, capping them to 1/[x cooldown time, i.e: "roughly once per fight"] a-la WoF on the dread mummy would be fun, but as we've seen on multiple threads on undead summons being "useless" (they aren't, you're just using the tool wrong) this may be less popular than you think.
The tool definitely takes some finesse and practice to learn. But once you do get it down to a science it is extremely rewarding when used properly. Especially as a Druid, using the tool properly gives you a huge edge compared to a Druid that would not, even if compared with identical stats. Such as rapidly using the tool to grab multiple enemies with aggro from your ancient air ele's zappy aura and bringing them back to your SoV. Or properly prioritizing mages over other adds!

I really like the idea you've posted here regarding changing the howl. Upping the DC drastically with a CD would actually make it fun to use!
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Re: Remove "Howl" from Wolf Animal Comp

Post by AstralUniverse » Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:25 am

One time, back when the minotaur boss on Skal was really op (I'm sure ya'all remember it deleting your parties too back 1-2 year ago even) I recall it rolling 1 against the wolf's Howl, making it really easy to kill just on that time. Not that this counts as good measurement, just a cool incident.

Over all I'm not against spell casts or abilities on summons. It adds dynamics. I wouldnt want to see all summons as 1 dimensional 'press-to-attack' and that's all, but I do agree that some abilities/spells have annoying functionality, in which the summon tries to cast something million times on a row while it's blocked by terrain.

I wish things like being blocked by terrain would consume their casting charge, same way it does for PCs I think(?). That way the summon still has high skill cap for the player, and can be useful for casting, but it wont do stupid stuff like that for the less skilled players. Cooldowns can also be adjusted there.
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Re: Remove "Howl" from Wolf Animal Comp

Post by Dalek Caan » Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:41 am

AstralUniverse wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:25 am
One time, back when the minotaur boss on Skal was really op (I'm sure ya'all remember it deleting your parties too back 1-2 year ago even) I recall it rolling 1 against the wolf's Howl, making it really easy to kill just on that time. Not that this counts as good measurement, just a cool incident.

Over all I'm not against spell casts or abilities on summons. It adds dynamics. I wouldnt want to see all summons as 1 dimensional 'press-to-attack' and that's all, but I do agree that some abilities/spells have annoying functionality, in which the summon tries to cast something million times on a row while it's blocked by terrain.

I wish things like being blocked by terrain would consume their casting charge, same way it does for PCs I think(?). That way the summon still has high skill cap for the player, and can be useful for casting, but it wont do stupid stuff like that for the less skilled players. Cooldowns can also be adjusted there.
They're not even blocked by the environment, sometimes, they just start their casting animation but never actually fire a spell or ability until you tell them to do something else. And there's no guarantee that they will cast or even attack if you send them at hostiles a second time, or a third. It's pretty random.

And PCs don't lose spells when attempting to cast on something or someone out of line-of-sight, IIRC. But yeah, I don't think that bit actually matters here.

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Re: Remove "Howl" from Wolf Animal Comp

Post by AstralUniverse » Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:35 am

Dalek Caan wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:41 am
And PCs don't lose spells when attempting to cast on something or someone out of line-of-sight
Thanks for the reminder. It's been a while... I somehow recalled it still expands the spell slot but I totally take your word for it.
Dalek Caan wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:41 am
They're not even blocked by the environment, sometimes, they just start their casting animation but never actually fire a spell or ability until you tell them to do something else. And there's no guarantee that they will cast or even attack if you send them at hostiles a second time, or a third. It's pretty random.
I'm not sure if I experienced what you describe there or not. To me it always looked like it is the terrain that screws everything up. I've gotten used to moving my summons around a lot and often ordering them to stand next to the hostile before ordering them to attack it, to prevent the casting entirely. But yeah, I wont deny the casting AI is overall bad.
Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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Re: Remove "Howl" from Wolf Animal Comp

Post by Curve » Wed Apr 21, 2021 2:48 pm

I have always considered the wolf's howl a real boon in PvP/PvE for the simple 5% chance that it lands and changes the fight dramatically. That is the reason I have taken the wolf over other companions in the past.

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