Crow's Nest Writ Change

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Party in the forest at midnight
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Re: Crow's Nest Writ Change

Post by Party in the forest at midnight » Sat Apr 24, 2021 6:27 am

seppuku me senpai wrote:
Sat Apr 24, 2021 4:07 am
I am also sort of shocked that you have been able to get many level 30's doing grind circles on 15exp a kill solo.
Hey that's me! I've hit 30 several times with 15 xp kills solo. I don't like dungeoning with people, unless they're close friends. I have to AFK fairly frequently, and I've had some absolutely horrible experiences in the past that make me shy away from grouping with people I do not know. I will leave dungeons if other players appear, especially since people get into PvP turf wars over dungeons. The few times Vance took me out to grind Underdark dungeons with a massive group was eye opening as to how much XP you can get in the underdark, but, most of the time that's not in the cards for me.

I think having things for solo and group play is great, because if there's better XP elsewhere for groups it means I can be left alone.

Lexx
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Re: Crow's Nest Writ Change

Post by Lexx » Sat Apr 24, 2021 11:18 am

Party in the forest at midnight wrote:
Sat Apr 24, 2021 6:27 am
seppuku me senpai wrote:
Sat Apr 24, 2021 4:07 am
I am also sort of shocked that you have been able to get many level 30's doing grind circles on 15exp a kill solo.
Hey that's me! I've hit 30 several times with 15 xp kills solo. I don't like dungeoning with people, unless they're close friends. I have to AFK fairly frequently, and I've had some absolutely horrible experiences in the past that make me shy away from grouping with people I do not know. I will leave dungeons if other players appear, especially since people get into PvP turf wars over dungeons. The few times Vance took me out to grind Underdark dungeons with a massive group was eye opening as to how much XP you can get in the underdark, but, most of the time that's not in the cards for me.

I think having things for solo and group play is great, because if there's better XP elsewhere for groups it means I can be left alone.
This echoes my general sentiment also. There's nothing wrong with grinding 10-20xp kills out on your own time to time or soloing the odd dungeon. Peak efficiency is great with the right group punching up for mad xp gains. But if it's just you wanting to chip away at progress and get some gold that's fine too.

Curve
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Re: Crow's Nest Writ Change

Post by Curve » Sat Apr 24, 2021 11:20 am

From my perspective you are setting the opposing sides as:

1) You who seeks out parties and challenge because you are into role play and have limited time.

And:

2: Others who seek to run grind mobs solo under haste for low xp per kill.

It’s not productive for conversation to set the stage so that your way looks good and the opposing way looks bad. I’m sure there is some debate term for that, and if not there should be.

Now, to clarify my positions.

When I say a ‘solo’ character I don’t refer to solo grinding, I refer to making a character without a friend or group of friends. Specifically, not getting on your discord with your pals and saying “hey boys I am making a X who will make a Y and level with me?” I say solo character to denote just getting an idea, creating a character, and making your connections in game.

Personally I don’t care how you level so long as you don’t break rules, don’t monopolize server resources, and don’t silently run grind. I’ve not shared my personal experiences and how I level because I don’t think it’s relevant. And as far as this conversation goes I don’t think saying “I require X amount of xp per kill” is relevant unless it is tempered with an admittance that other players don’t share your standards. The same can be applied to talking about how early you go to a certain dungeon. Making statements about how good you are at the game does not really help this conversation, so I being to wonder what the point of posting them are.

I did not quote anyone in my post because my desire is not to pick on anyone, or to call anyone in particular out. If any of the things I have said don’t apply to you please know that that means exactly what it appears to- that it does not apply to you.

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Re: Crow's Nest Writ Change

Post by Irongron » Sat Apr 24, 2021 1:26 pm

I don't coordinate with other players at all on Discord, and as a relatively casual player I don't have a support network of OOC buddies helping to outfit my character, nor do I join factions that often do the same. I generally play at off peak hours, and while I'm glad to find a party as I play, I'm generally alone in dungeons 90% of the time (I suspect 'natural' partying happens less and less, as the norm is now firmly via Discord groups and team speak), nor do I build entirely optimal characters.

My characters are suboptimal, poorly outfitted and generally alone.

Really I'm generally seriously challenged by anything offering over 15xp a kill, at least after around level 8, and I normally don't even attempt writs until I'm within 2 levels of its maximum threshold.

As Curve says; there are all kinds of players, not only playing the game differently but also with different RL situations influencing these choices. There are certainly no right or wrong ways to play here, but no way I'm going to build Arelith only for those hard core coordinated grind crews who think anything less than 20xp per creature isn't worth their time.

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Ork
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Re: Crow's Nest Writ Change

Post by Ork » Sat Apr 24, 2021 3:07 pm

I've got a similar experience Irongron. I don't have much time any more to play, rarely party with people &make A LOT of new characters. I have never had a L30 character (but have gotten close before I get bored).

I LOVE the low level grind. I love it so much that I do it again and again. I love soloing these areas with new character concepts to see if I can improve or find new ways to accomplish the job (traps giving XP has been great).

I'll say this. There is definitely a DOPAMINE HIT when I can clear a dungeon that is dangerous and challenging. When I come out on top after nearly dying a few times - that's what makes the low level experience for me.

With that said, I think the sea bandits have been one of my favorite dungeons from L6 - 9. You get hit with a mix of mobs that makes the engagement interesting. You get one spawn with a bunch of humans and halflings that make it seem easy, and then the next spawn is a bunch of ogre shipbreakers and half-orcs that start to wreck you. The lower level is probably my least favorite with the swashbucklers being homogeneous.

Beating the lower level boss is that capstone. I love doing it on a L6 where I'm one CC spell away from failure.

With that all said, I welcome the increased challenge of the place - but, I'd be lying if I wasn't sad I can't do it on a L6 anymore. Once that XP tapers off, and the challenge wanes - I hate easy grinds.

I like writs, but I do think we bend over backwards to accommodate unfamiliar players. I get that dying sucks, but now that it's just a slap on the wrist I don't really feel bad for players that get smote in pve dungeons. Take a time out and come back at it with more tools or a party.

seppuku me senpai
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Re: Crow's Nest Writ Change

Post by seppuku me senpai » Sat Apr 24, 2021 4:04 pm

It's important to my argument to state what my expectations are for exp gain when leveling to illustrate how I play. At 15-20exp a kill, I would prefer to rp then grind.

As I have said, its cool some people prefer to do a dungeon alone. Its fine if you want to chip away at it. Its enlightening to me to hear that's the norm these days. Props to you, I could never do that.

I'm not here to demand the dungeon be made to my playstyle. I'm here to say, if this dungeon is giving me these returns, then I'm going to do these ones instead, and here's my reasons why.

Its not an attack on design, nor is it an attack on anyone else's play style. This is my feedback and how I play with it.

Re: Curve
Not sure how to respond to you. I don't feel like you've read the entirety of my posts, and to explain myself any further would be exhausting.
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ElvenEdibles
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Re: Crow's Nest Writ Change

Post by ElvenEdibles » Sat Apr 24, 2021 5:16 pm

Irongron wrote:
Sat Apr 24, 2021 1:26 pm
(I suspect 'natural' partying happens less and less, as the norm is now firmly via Discord groups and team speak)
It depends on location. I have always found issues finding parties in Cordor, but in the Hub and Sibayad, it's very easy to find a party without any OOC coordination. Steps to reproduce: have a "marketable skill" and be forward about asking people. Don't get dejected if someone says they can't help.

Marketable skills include: being able to deal damage, being able to absorb or avoid dmg through reduction, providing buffs including the coveted Mass Haste, providing specific dmg and debuff spells, being able to heal cheaply, etc

I don't use Discord to organize anything at all and have zero problems finding parties. Put yourself out there!

You don't really even need to build optimal characters as long as you can contribute to the party in some form.

Edit: I do not play in 'off hours' (I assume Australian daylight) however, but I have in the past, and while it was not quite as easy to find a party I still was able too most of the time.
Ork wrote:
Sat Apr 24, 2021 3:07 pm
I like writs, but I do think we bend over backwards to accommodate unfamiliar players. I get that dying sucks, but now that it's just a slap on the wrist I don't really feel bad for players that get smote in pve dungeons. Take a time out and come back at it with more tools or a party.
I like this school of thought

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Flower Power
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Re: Crow's Nest Writ Change

Post by Flower Power » Sat Apr 24, 2021 5:54 pm

Part of the problem with 'natural partying' (i.e., why it's hard to find one that isn't just ganging up with a premade team of people) is the way EXP itself works; premade teams work because you can game the system to have a small, functional party - and the EXP system rewards you for having a small, functional party, but punishes you for having a large party.

And when you end up with a 'natural party', you're probably going to end up with one that's larger than the system permits without punishing you. This is only made worse when you run into classes (Shadowdancers, Druids) who rely on summons/animal companions to function as anything other than AFK buffbots, because these additional summons further reduce EXP gain (significantly, in some cases.) - at least, that was what was said last time the party system/summons were publicly documented/explained: that animal companions and summons reduce EXP when you've got 4+ people in the party.

Smaller parties also enable you to actually make gold. Adventuring is barely profitable once you have 3+ people in the group, sometimes.

If you want to make 'natural partying' more viable:

1) Lighten restrictions on EXP gain - maybe don't remove the party cap entirely, but increase it to only start reducing EXP after you have 6+ people in the party; this way you aren't actively punished for not killbashing that guy who showed up to your orclands grind.

2) Remove Animal Companions and Shadowdancer Summons from affecting EXP at all - or at least Shadowdancer Summons. SD is presently the only class in the game whose main class feature is being an active detriment to any party they try to join. This allows PCs that are otherwise only incentivized to solo, or might otherwise be actively turned away from a group trying to get EXP efficiently, to be welcomed wholeheartedly.

Alternatively just scrap the entire "bonus XP for party up to 4, EXP lost for party after 4" system entirely.
what would fred rogers do?

Anomandaris
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Re: Crow's Nest Writ Change

Post by Anomandaris » Sat Apr 24, 2021 7:33 pm

Reading this tells me a few things. People play very differently. You can’t optimize any ecosystem for the vast variety of play styles and preferences. And there’s a bit of a disconnect between how some design/dev look at things based on their play style and what is commonly done in practice.

I find pve content on the server almost universally far too easy because it’s so easy to find random party’s to help even with no ooc relationship (assuming not playing odd hours).

But the party thing is just part of it. AI is pretty easily countered with simple things like darkness. Most dungeons have a “theme” that can be either easily countered or crush you depending on your build and available countermeasures to it.

It might be cool to call out and create party writs like 2-3 adventures of roughly this level or whatever. There’s a bit of a translation loss on some where the level clearly means a party of that lvl whereas another can be done solo on a lot of builds of a given level.

Spriggan Bride
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Re: Crow's Nest Writ Change

Post by Spriggan Bride » Sat Apr 24, 2021 7:55 pm

I don’t really have a lot of patience for reading “soloing is weird”. That really shows a total lack of understanding for players on the other side of the screen whose circumstances you don’t understand.

This is an old game with a lot of adult players with adult responsibilities who don’t have the time they used to. I really think most players who solo would probably prefer to be in a party but that’s easier said than done. Maybe they can’t stick around long enough to guarantee they won’t have to drop out halfway through, maybe they just want to get a little character progression in but don’t want to spend an hour looking for characters of the same level first and know what they can handle… I have family and a full time job and that means I can only “pop-in” during the day (and may have to drop out at any time if the work phone rings or something else comes up) and get an hour or so in later at night when the server is pretty dead. So I solo a lot, it’s what I have to do if I want to build characters capable of being part of things when I can be part of things.

If you think that’s “weird” I guess I am just glad you’re not the one making the rules because I think this situation is pretty common. So please don’t say things like that to shame other players (I know, you tacked on “it’s cool” but come on.)

Babylon System is the Vampire
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Re: Crow's Nest Writ Change

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Sat Apr 24, 2021 8:19 pm

seppuku me senpai wrote:
Sat Apr 24, 2021 6:11 am
Babylon System is the Vampire wrote:
Sat Apr 24, 2021 5:19 am
seppuku me senpai wrote:
Sat Apr 24, 2021 4:07 am
Additionally, back in my day... :ugeek: "Soloing" was considered scum behavior: why would you get exp alone when dungeons and dragons is typically a party experience? When I go to grind,
I'm not taking a swing, I just wanted to highlight the irony in that statement and the start of the next sentence being so close. A dungeon and dragons experience is what most of us crave, but honestly circle grinding at top speed with the wizard casting mass haste and then running around collecting is not that. I'm not telling you not to do you, but really soloing allows you more of an authentic feel of dungeons and dragons then most parties if we are being honest.

Also, back in the day we had a lot of things we thought were scumbaggish. And we watched the player numbers slowly drop over the entirety of the game save for sexy fun times servers. Peoples ability to do their own thing without much judgement is what makes Arelith so popular.
I'm not sure how to respond to this, honestly. I can't tell if you're trying to make a passive aggressive remark and tout a holier-than-thou attitude or genuinely trying to make a constructive remark. In either case, you're kind of a jerk.

Wait, you're not even the person I quoted initially. Who are you, how did you get here?

edit:
Alright. I really want to highlight here, that my intent in explaining my experience with grinding and how I play, and why I like to play the way I do, is to provide feedback to the leveling system. I am not saying my way is the Right Way. I am not saying everyone should play like me. PERSONALLY , I have fun playing in parties, and I have always viewed dungeons as a party activity. In addition, I put focus on making sure I am spending my time efficiently, and I prefer more difficult dungeons.

It's weird to me that people solo dungeons. I could never do that myself. If that is what you do? Cool. I can't speak to that experience, that's not me. If you like to circle grind 15exp mobs, cool. That's your time, not mine. I don't play like that. I play like this. And that is what I have come here to articulate. Please don't set me on fire because I like to play differently than you.
Oh, Captain Irony...

Which part made me the jerk? When I said that I didn't know how people could solo like it made them inferior or something? Or the part about soloing being scummy back in my day? Oh, wait, I didn't say either of those. I did say circle grinding didn't mimic the D&D experience, but I think that's just common sense. Maybe in your group you tell the DM to talk really fast so he keeps up with your running about, but I don't think that's how most groups play.

Anyways, you have since said you are all for people doing their own thing, and that was the point of my swooping in and making the post in the first place so...I guess mission accomplished?

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Ork
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Re: Crow's Nest Writ Change

Post by Ork » Sun Apr 25, 2021 12:44 am

I know I love to dish out snark like the next guy, but this seems like a misunderstanding.

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Hazard
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Re: Crow's Nest Writ Change

Post by Hazard » Sun Apr 25, 2021 1:18 am

Without any OOC communications (Discord/Whatever) I still manage to find parties, but it does get harder and harder as OOC info becomes more and more acceptable in small ways.

It seems to be a lot easier to do things fully IC in the UD, while on the surface I get a lot more tells like "hey wanna grind?"
But I think this is a by-product of the hub being so central, so everyone will meet there eventually and getting a party is naturally easier, meanwhile the surface has many settlements and meeting points, so there's no "one spot" to wait for adventurers.

A thing I've found to help for natural surface partying is instead of waiting in town for the party, go and attempt the writ by yourself and just hang around if it's too hard. Eventually people show up and you're just this cool cat that was already there and they pickup along the way.

xanrael
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Re: Crow's Nest Writ Change

Post by xanrael » Sun Apr 25, 2021 2:47 am

My thought process is writs should be geared for people with a less optimal leveling setup/plan to still keep a decent pace with a few for people able to take on a bit more challenge. If you've gone out of your way to setup to level quickly you really don't need writs to keep a fast pace. If you're playing in a more relaxed manner then they're very useful.

For me personally I pick writs for secondary reasons than challenge/XP, usually proximity to other writs/dungeons I plan to XP at for the majority of my XP that day etc. For example when I was playing my enchanter for a 5 level range I picked one of 2 sets of 3 writs. First writ was done on the way to writ 2 which had good targets to dominate. I'd then drag the dominate through writ area 3 and finally to the dungeon I plan to XP at for the next hour. Finishing off the writs might only be a 5-15 minute detour from my original plan.

For me they're icing on the cake and also increases the chance I might pickup another PC to spend time with dungeon-delving.

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Re: Crow's Nest Writ Change

Post by LovelyLightningWitch » Sun Apr 25, 2021 6:09 pm

Hazard wrote:
Sun Apr 25, 2021 1:18 am
Without any OOC communications (Discord/Whatever) I still manage to find parties, but it does get harder and harder as OOC info becomes more and more acceptable in small ways.

It seems to be a lot easier to do things fully IC in the UD, while on the surface I get a lot more tells like "hey wanna grind?"
But I think this is a by-product of the hub being so central, so everyone will meet there eventually and getting a party is naturally easier, meanwhile the surface has many settlements and meeting points, so there's no "one spot" to wait for adventurers.

A thing I've found to help for natural surface partying is instead of waiting in town for the party, go and attempt the writ by yourself and just hang around if it's too hard. Eventually people show up and you're just this cool cat that was already there and they pickup along the way.
One challenge with natural partying is potentially heavily clashing playstyles.

While neither playstyle is worse or better than the other...

The people who prefer slow-paced RP, including frequent reactions to dungeon elements, planning before breaching a room and fleshing out traps/searching etc...

...will ruin the enjoyment for a party whose playstyle relies on round/cl spell and dashing through the dungeon before they wear out with minimal interaction, or if there's interaction - it is fast paced. The single slow-paced RPer who joined up will end up alt-tabbing frequently due to finding it unengaging/boring as they keep clicking enemies to hit.

Likewise the same if there's a party of slow-paced RPers picking up someone new, and that new person keeps hasting up and running off - neither the new person or the party will have fun. The new person will either start alt-tabbing out of boredom, or end up dying to running ahead.

I've tried to resolve this conflict through IC means by trying to discuss tactics beforehand, but more often than not it came off as awfully clumsy - and at times managed to insult the prospective party member due to wordings like "reckless" and "suicidal."

Alternative is to potentially waste an hour or so doing something you don't enjoy, or OOC communication - and OOC communication for such feels wrong to me.

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Re: Crow's Nest Writ Change

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Tue Apr 27, 2021 11:14 pm

seppuku me senpai wrote:
Sat Apr 24, 2021 4:07 am
Curve wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:36 am
Yes, even a +1 changes everything. I'm taken aback by some of the statements in this thread about 20xp a kill being not worth people's time, going to certain places at certain levels. It feels like some weird bragging that you also think should affect the server. I am as good as anyone at leveling characters and I often very happy getting 15 xp a kill. I have a wild suspicion that some of you talking about doing the sea bandits at such a low level are also making characters with other people and planning 2+ characters is very different than making a regular 'solo' character without seeking a partner/party in discord. I do not think I have once leveled with a balanced party since starting Arelith and I've leveled dozens of characters to 30th. Folks might need some perspective that their experience is vastly different than others.
I am also sort of shocked that you have been able to get many level 30's doing grind circles on 15exp a kill solo. The idea of going into a dungeon solo to me still strikes me as playing on hard mode. I just had to add that. I'm honestly shook.
I am more likely to find a party by soing solo play than "hunt the other lowbies or camp writ board with players missing all ny dialogue as they talk to writ npc".

As a super casual player where i feel the world changes between my logins and only an hour or 2 to play. I have to solo and hope I come across by chance.

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Re: Crow's Nest Writ Change

Post by strong yeet » Tue Apr 27, 2021 11:18 pm

It seems like it wouldn't be remiss to make the writ have a lower requirement to take, but a higher "end cap" if this is such a big deal. I admit personally that I've done these areas for years at level 6, most often playing as a party of 2. You definitely don't need a big group or fantastic gear to do it. Especially not the Wharftown boys.

Unrelatedly, this thread is making me realise just how unadulteratedly awful levelling was prior to the implementation of writs.

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Re: Crow's Nest Writ Change

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Tue Apr 27, 2021 11:24 pm

strong yeet wrote:
Tue Apr 27, 2021 11:18 pm
It seems like it wouldn't be remiss to make the writ have a lower requirement to take, but a higher "end cap" if this is such a big deal. I admit personally that I've done these areas for years at level 6, most often playing as a party of 2. You definitely don't need a big group or fantastic gear to do it. Especially not the Wharftown boys.

Unrelatedly, this thread is making me realise just how unadulteratedly awful levelling was prior to the implementation of writs.
I partially missed pre writ work as i found It easier to find parties. Now i come across some other same lvls and its like "no we took these writs instead".


My party based adventuring has decreased probably by 75% since writs were introduced and I prefer parties.

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Re: Crow's Nest Writ Change

Post by xanrael » Wed Apr 28, 2021 3:04 pm

malcolm_mountainslayer wrote:
Tue Apr 27, 2021 11:24 pm
strong yeet wrote:
Tue Apr 27, 2021 11:18 pm
It seems like it wouldn't be remiss to make the writ have a lower requirement to take, but a higher "end cap" if this is such a big deal. I admit personally that I've done these areas for years at level 6, most often playing as a party of 2. You definitely don't need a big group or fantastic gear to do it. Especially not the Wharftown boys.

Unrelatedly, this thread is making me realise just how unadulteratedly awful levelling was prior to the implementation of writs.
I partially missed pre writ work as i found It easier to find parties. Now i come across some other same lvls and its like "no we took these writs instead".


My party based adventuring has decreased probably by 75% since writs were introduced and I prefer parties.
For me I've found a decent amount of it is the way I ask the question.

#1
Are you going to go do writ A?
No

#2
Hey want to team up and help each other with our writ-work?
Okay
I have writ A, what about you?
B
Let's start with B then do A, sound good?
Okay

Wrote these in an OOC format to keep it short and simple but generally ask these in an IC way.

That's not to say #2 always leads a group and #1 never does, but asking it like #2 makes it clear that you're inviting them while #1 less so. It's been the minority for me that have expressed the idea of "I'm only willing to do these 3 writs and anything extra is out of the question".

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Re: Crow's Nest Writ Change

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Wed Apr 28, 2021 9:00 pm

xanrael wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 3:04 pm
malcolm_mountainslayer wrote:
Tue Apr 27, 2021 11:24 pm
strong yeet wrote:
Tue Apr 27, 2021 11:18 pm
It seems like it wouldn't be remiss to make the writ have a lower requirement to take, but a higher "end cap" if this is such a big deal. I admit personally that I've done these areas for years at level 6, most often playing as a party of 2. You definitely don't need a big group or fantastic gear to do it. Especially not the Wharftown boys.

Unrelatedly, this thread is making me realise just how unadulteratedly awful levelling was prior to the implementation of writs.
I partially missed pre writ work as i found It easier to find parties. Now i come across some other same lvls and its like "no we took these writs instead".


My party based adventuring has decreased probably by 75% since writs were introduced and I prefer parties.
For me I've found a decent amount of it is the way I ask the question.

#1
Are you going to go do writ A?
No

#2
Hey want to team up and help each other with our writ-work?
Okay
I have writ A, what about you?
B
Let's start with B then do A, sound good?
Okay

Wrote these in an OOC format to keep it short and simple but generally ask these in an IC way.

That's not to say #2 always leads a group and #1 never does, but asking it like #2 makes it clear that you're inviting them while #1 less so. It's been the minority for me that have expressed the idea of "I'm only willing to do these 3 writs and anything extra is out of the question".
Yeah i have ran the help each other writs situations a few times and have often as a result left myself or the other wanting as i odyen have to log only after 1 or 2 writs.

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