Crow's Nest Writ Change

[stoneheart-]

With my most recent character, I've noticed that several writ level limits have been raised. I was aware this had happened, but I hadn't realized the extent of it until now. The most notable example of this so far is the Crow's Nest.

Sea Bandits is now level 9-17, the Mound is now 10-20, with Wharftown Boys somewhere thereabouts. These three writs were pretty important to the level 6-9 stage of progression, and now there isn't much that's good xp for that range to take now. Neither the XP per mob nor the difficulty of the content has been changed to compensate for this change, and so a level 9 (the lowest level you can be to take sea bandits) gets a poor amount of xp for the mobs there.

This is to say nothing for the amount of near-epics that I've run into there now, people running through for easy chests/boss xp/potentially resources (I've seen mithril, gold spawning in the Mound at least). While I understand this was done to facilitate ease of play with one's friends that might be higher level, I feel such a sweeping change across the board could stand to be looked at. Certainly the writs in the 'teens and near/post epic levels benefit from this, the low level ones not so much.

It just seems like something that could stand to be reassessed/looked at. I feel that these writs, at least, were absolutely fine as they were and balanced for their old level range. If this must change, that is fine, but the quests could stand to be tweaked as a result.

[ElvenEdibles]

Sea Bandits is now level 9-17, the Mound is now 10-20, with Wharftown Boys somewhere thereabouts. These three writs were pretty important to the level 6-9 stage of progression, and now there isn't much that's good xp for that range to take now. Neither the XP per mob nor the difficulty of the content has been changed to compensate for this change, and so a level 9 (the lowest level you can be to take sea bandits) gets a poor amount of xp for the mobs there.

...

It just seems like something that could stand to be reassessed/looked at. I feel that these writs, at least, were absolutely fine as they were and balanced for their old level range. If this must change, that is fine, but the quests could stand to be tweaked as a result.

+1

[Irongron]

None of those locations were ever intended for level 6-9, nor was the minimum level for these adjusted. If you are able to tackle either the Yuan-ti or the Sea Bandits at level 6 then I can only presume that you're playing a very strong character.

[stoneheart-]

None of those locations were ever intended for level 6-9, nor was the minimum level for these adjusted. If you are able to tackle either the Yuan-ti or the Sea Bandits at level 6 then I can only presume that you're playing a very strong character.

Really? I find this very surprising. I am a veteran player, and I've ALWAYS rushed for those writs right after Cordor (and, at least as far as I've seen, this is common practice). Your typical conjuration-focused wizard or cleric is able to do at least the sea bandits just fine. The Mound at least was always level 9, not 6, and that too was a reasonable level for even a summon-dependent caster, especially since they have mind immunity spells to deal with the confusion.

[Xerah]

They were never that low. Crow's nest has always been designed for post 10 after Cordor writs.

[Curve]

Conjuration focused casters are very easy to level and can handle areas faster than their mundane counter parts around the level range of these writs. Unless the mundane characters have very good gear for their levels.

[Scurvy Cur]

My experience has more or less mirrored Stoneheart's, except that I don't believe conj focii are necessary for a caster to solo there, as I moved my cha-based abj/illu healer cleric to sea bandits at level 6 (for the record, this build is NOT strong at pve, prior to acquiring regeneration, which happens at 13). I've also gone there as an as-yet-undipped rogue starting at 5, an as-yet-undipped bard starting at 6, an as-yet-undipped abj paladin starting at 6, and an as-yet-undipped strength ranger with 8 dex and studded leather armor before we did the blade thirst and dual wield AC update, starting at 6. Not one of these characters is a pve powerhouse.

My usual progression on a character I care to level fast is:

1) Cordor lowbie writ set (sewer rats, sewer patrol, library archives). This normally takes me to 5.
2) Darrowdeep ghoul loops until 6-7. (End Day 1)
3) Crow's Nest stuff until 10 or so. This usually includes one run each of the sea bandits, wharftown boys, and quagmire patrol writs. If I'm slow and this takes me more than 1 day to accomplish, I will usually also grab the Yuan-ti mound at level 9 or 10.
4) By 10, I try to move to the Sibayad crypts. Sometimes these are overcrowded enough to be slower XP than FoD and surroundings + repeat runs of yuan-ti, and I'll grab associated writs. Either way, however, by level 10 I'm no longer touching Sea Bandits.

When levelling my most recent rogue, I even skipped the DD ghoul loop, because I had a decent partner for the grind who could -guard me and taunt targets, and sea bandits at 5 were much faster XP than trying to chew through an undead zone with a rogue as the primary DPS source.

I don't think I've ever regarded it as a 10+ dungeon, and have always thought that characters of level 10+ grinding there were overstaying their welcome.

[stoneheart-]

I have never had trouble on my mundane characters either. I have leveled a bog standard weaponmaster most recently. I don't think I play characters who are exceptionally strong (especially at low levels), but I do remember to take improved expertise and buy barkskin potions and other preventatives. I don't feel that's a part of having a "strong" character as clarity, barkskin, etc. are resources available to everybody.

I'll have to defer to multiple devs saying this is the design intent, it just comes as a shock to me.

[Xerah]

I've never once gone there before 10 though and I do that writ on every character. I don't grind though and only gain levels by running through my two or three writs then RPing afterwards.

Different people play different ways, but the general idea is that you stick around Cordor until 9-10 then move to Crow's Nest (this is why the writs are set in those level ranges). I personally have more fun not grinding and spreading out my PvE experience rather than reaching for optimal EXP/hr.

[seppuku me senpai]

i have always, on every single character, done mound and sea bandits on levels 6-10. Fall off of exp afterwards is too much to justify staying there when exp and challenge of Sibayad's circuit is much more rewarding. If I'm not getting 24-25exp minimum per kill I don't bother doing the writ and look for something more challenging. Even 24-25 is pretty low. 28-30 is my realistic ideal.

I didn't know that the mound and sea bandits were intended for 10+. The exp fall off at the 11-12 mark makes that area not at all worth it, especially with how crowded it can get. (not to mention the Mound can be consumable costly too.)

My typical routine for dungeoning is:

Archives>Sewer Patrol>Sewer Rat Gang until 5
Darrowdeep>Bullywugs until 6
Whatftown Boys>Sea Bandits>Quagmires until 10-12
Sibayad Writs until 15
Minmir Giants>Skull Crags> Gnolls until 20 ish
Boarder Reavers>Endless Battlefield>Earls Mansion>Benwick (if feeling brave) until end game content is available.

This is my route in a balanced party playing with standard cookie-cut builds, nothing OP or gimmicky. I'd be interested in hearing anyone who was doing Darrowdeep/Bullywugs/Cordor writs after 6 and getting only 15exp a kill until they hit 10. I've never heard or seen anyone familiar with the system do that.

Edit:
if there is this much of a dissonance between what the devs think is level appropriate range vs the level the players are when they engage in these dungeons, it might be worth while to have a poll and take a survey to observe what level parties and party comps are going to what dungeons and when.

[Xerah]

This is my route in a balanced party playing with standard cookie-cut builds, nothing OP or gimmicky. I'd be interested in hearing anyone who was doing Darrowdeep/Bullywugs/Cordor writs after 6 and getting only 15exp a kill until they hit 10. I've never heard or seen anyone familiar with the system do that.

Usually, I do the Bullywug writ at 7 or 8, I think.

[seppuku me senpai]

This is my route in a balanced party playing with standard cookie-cut builds, nothing OP or gimmicky. I'd be interested in hearing anyone who was doing Darrowdeep/Bullywugs/Cordor writs after 6 and getting only 15exp a kill until they hit 10. I've never heard or seen anyone familiar with the system do that.

Usually, I do the Bullywug writ at 7 or 8, I think.

I could see doing Bullywugs at 7 if your party comp is meek or your build isn't doing too strong yet. But 8? No way. 15-20exp a kill is a waste of time for the time investment of doing that circuit. I encourage you to try taking your party to sea bandits at 8 and see how you do for yourself.

[Scurvy Cur]

Different people play different ways, but the general idea is that you stick around Cordor until 9-10 then move to Crow's Nest (this is why the writs are set in those level ranges). I personally have more fun not grinding and spreading out my PvE experience rather than reaching for optimal EXP/hr.

Would there be any substantial harm then, in dropping the lower range of WTB/Quagmire Patrol/Sea Bandits to 6, and mound to 8, while leaving the upper range the same? This would allow for both playstyles (cordor writs until 10, and out of Cordor ASAP) to pick up these writs at a time that feels natural to them. If you have the most fun not grinding your early levels, you can spend a week doing Cordor stuff, and have Crow's Nest waiting for you. If you prefer a more aggressive approach, you can be out of Cordor by your second set of writs.

Even though I think an upper end of 17 (meaning that the writ can be cleared by a character of up to and including level 20) is a bit high, it's probably not the end of the world to let players run these writs very, very late into their progression. It feels much more painful, however, to condemn characters to Cordor + Environs for 10 levels.

[Red Ropes]

Only adding feedback about Sea Bandits but that dungeon has meh XP once you hit about 11 and the challenge of the dungeon itself isn't that difficult - it can be done by anyone with a 2 APR summon + some heal kits, or anyone who hits around 30-40 AC (usually done by being dex based classes or in Full Plate).

Neither of the above are very difficult to achieve for most level 6-7 characters.

--

If it is meant to be higher I'd tweak the spawns to be stronger / with maybe a slightly higher xp award.

[stoneheart-]

I personally have more fun not grinding and spreading out my PvE experience rather than reaching for optimal EXP/hr.

I specifically am talking about the writs, not "grinding". I certainly do not do this, usually I do my three writs per day and go do something else. Usually this is roleplay, which is hardly "optimal EXP/hr".

I have made this thread because I thought an error might have been made in the calculation of this recent change, not because I am some xp goblin ceaselessly grinding to 30 in a month. If I am wrong, then I am wrong, there is no need to cast these sort of aspersions.

[Curve]

I personally have more fun not grinding and spreading out my PvE experience rather than reaching for optimal EXP/hr.

I specifically am talking about the writs, not "grinding". I certainly do not do this, usually I do my three writs per day and go do something else. Usually this is roleplay, which is hardly "optimal EXP/hr".

I have made this thread because I thought an error might have been made in the calculation of this recent change, not because I am some xp goblin ceaselessly grinding to 30 in a month. If I am wrong, then I am wrong, there is no need to cast these sort of aspersions.

Dude said personally. Nobody is casting any aspersions your way. Hah.

[AstralUniverse]

I agree that the Sea Bandits writ should be extended down to lvl 6 or 7. A party of 2-3 characters with 2 apr each can be fine there so I dont think the writ should start at lvl 9. I also dont think the Sibayad tomb writs (first and last) should be.... 12-20 (last I checked) when people already go to them at lvl 10 already. We're missing low level writs, and we go to these places way earlier than the writs level range thinks we do. I think Darrowdeep would be a cool place if it was larger and more grindable. Not because I'm a filthy grinder but because it would be nice to actually see people there from time to time. The blue orcs have a strong mage boss with phylactery and by the time you can actually kill it you can also kill Sea Bandits.. just for perspective... Bloodmoon is really the best and most balanced low level writ and has a proper level range. Sea Bandits should occupy similar level range to the Bloodmoon.

[Xerah]

I'm not judging anyone, I just said how I personally do it. The thing about Arelith is that people can get their grind or just never leave the city and everything in between.

Last week (coming from Skal), I had a bard go through sea bandits, It was level 12 I believe; which is usually later than I end to do it (usually 9 I think). EXP seemed fine to me. I don't know, maybe I don't have high exp standards. I honestly don't even think about monster EXP when I'm doing writs.

I also mostly solo these days since I rarely have time to find a group.

[Irongron]

I am not going to lower the CR of the writs, as I think, particularly with the Mound, it would lead some players into a situation they could not easily survive. Having recently fought the Sea Bandits though, I can say that it is definitely too easy for the writ level, so will increase their difficulty accordingly.

[Freyason]

Some people here are talking about solo, some are talking about parties.

Of course you can do writs way above what you'd normally do solo, with 2-4 other capable people.

[Curve]

Yes, even a +1 changes everything. I'm taken aback by some of the statements in this thread about 20xp a kill being not worth people's time, going to certain places at certain levels. It feels like some weird bragging that you also think should affect the server. I am as good as anyone at leveling characters and I often very happy getting 15 xp a kill. I have a wild suspicion that some of you talking about doing the sea bandits at such a low level are also making characters with other people and planning 2+ characters is very different than making a regular 'solo' character without seeking a partner/party in discord. I do not think I have once leveled with a balanced party since starting Arelith and I've leveled dozens of characters to 30th. Folks might need some perspective that their experience is vastly different than others.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

I am not going to lower the CR of the writs, as I think, particularly with the Mound, it would lead some players into a situation they could not easily survive. Having recently fought the Sea Bandits though, I can say that it is definitely too easy for the writ level, so will increase their difficulty accordingly.

The problem with the sea bandits is it doesn't scale up well like the mound does. I can do the mound as a level 9, get all the easy spawns, and then do it as a level 12 and get the harder spawns and get about the same xp. A higher level in the sea bandits maybe gets more clerics who can be annoying with their dispels, but the xp is about the same for them as just about any other spawn. So, figuring out how to make it scale up is probably just as important as making it harder.

I know the surface writs in and out, as I made a point for about two years to do them all at least once per character. If you ever want to go over what makes some cash cows and others annoying to the point that anyone who doesn't want a real challenge will never do them, I can donate a hour or two of my life no problem. I'm not currently playing, but since Sofa shut down my only arelith related discord I kept to see update announcements I now have to check the forums regularly again so I am just a PM away.

[seppuku me senpai]

Yes, even a +1 changes everything. I'm taken aback by some of the statements in this thread about 20xp a kill being not worth people's time, going to certain places at certain levels. It feels like some weird bragging that you also think should affect the server. I am as good as anyone at leveling characters and I often very happy getting 15 xp a kill. I have a wild suspicion that some of you talking about doing the sea bandits at such a low level are also making characters with other people and planning 2+ characters is very different than making a regular 'solo' character without seeking a partner/party in discord. I do not think I have once leveled with a balanced party since starting Arelith and I've leveled dozens of characters to 30th. Folks might need some perspective that their experience is vastly different than others.

t-thanks for taking a swing at me....

I am very conscious of my exp gains because I have very very limited play time. Sometimes, I can only get on only once or twice a week, and for a three or four hours at that. When I get on, and I have the time to grind and don't have RP I want to get to, I want to make sure that the writs I do are the most reward for the time I have, because the writs are likely to be the only grind I do before I go back to RP.

Additionally, back in my day... "Soloing" was considered scum behavior: why would you get exp alone when dungeons and dragons is typically a party experience? When I go to grind, if I'm not going with someone else, I won't go at all. I don't have much fun doing it by myself, and to me, dungeoning has always been a co-op experience. I've been able to find parties either through RP or by hanging out near writ-givers and finding someone who will come with me. My parties have not at all always been "balanced" but we managed. In all my times dungeoning as well, I've only ever run into other parties, very rarely have I seen soloers.

I also prefer a dungeon that is more challenging. I don't have any fun doing something that is easy and no risk. I like having to pay attention to the mobs, utilize the terrain to make choke points, manage my health and guarding party members, while frantically coordinating with my party.

I acknowledge my tone is condescending and snarky-- part of it was shock that anyone would go to a dungeon and spend time, consumables, and so on for such small returns. I recognize that times have changed and the community may have shifted toward soloing as opposed to partying. So, it has been enlightening for me to hear so many people regularly resort to soloing; I don't typically speak to the community OOCly so I don't really know what other people's experiences are. My intention behind explaining my leveling system is not to dictate server direction, but to provide my personal experience as feedback to the system as it is now.

I am also sort of shocked that you have been able to get many level 30's doing grind circles on 15exp a kill solo. The idea of going into a dungeon solo to me still strikes me as playing on hard mode. I just had to add that. I'm honestly shook.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

Additionally, back in my day... "Soloing" was considered scum behavior: why would you get exp alone when dungeons and dragons is typically a party experience? When I go to grind,

I'm not taking a swing, I just wanted to highlight the irony in that statement and the start of the next sentence being so close. A dungeon and dragons experience is what most of us crave, but honestly circle grinding at top speed with the wizard casting mass haste and then running around collecting is not that. I'm not telling you not to do you, but really soloing allows you more of an authentic feel of dungeons and dragons then most parties if we are being honest.

Also, back in the day we had a lot of things we thought were scumbaggish. And we watched the player numbers slowly drop over the entirety of the game save for sexy fun times servers. Peoples ability to do their own thing without much judgement is what makes Arelith so popular.

[seppuku me senpai]

Additionally, back in my day... "Soloing" was considered scum behavior: why would you get exp alone when dungeons and dragons is typically a party experience? When I go to grind,

I'm not taking a swing, I just wanted to highlight the irony in that statement and the start of the next sentence being so close. A dungeon and dragons experience is what most of us crave, but honestly circle grinding at top speed with the wizard casting mass haste and then running around collecting is not that. I'm not telling you not to do you, but really soloing allows you more of an authentic feel of dungeons and dragons then most parties if we are being honest.

Also, back in the day we had a lot of things we thought were scumbaggish. And we watched the player numbers slowly drop over the entirety of the game save for sexy fun times servers. Peoples ability to do their own thing without much judgement is what makes Arelith so popular.

I'm not sure how to respond to this, honestly. I can't tell if you're trying to make a passive aggressive remark and tout a holier-than-thou attitude or genuinely trying to make a constructive remark. In either case, you're kind of a jerk.

Wait, you're not even the person I quoted initially. Who are you, how did you get here?

edit:
Alright. I really want to highlight here, that my intent in explaining my experience with grinding and how I play, and why I like to play the way I do, is to provide feedback to the leveling system. I am not saying my way is the Right Way. I am not saying everyone should play like me. PERSONALLY , I have fun playing in parties, and I have always viewed dungeons as a party activity. In addition, I put focus on making sure I am spending my time efficiently, and I prefer more difficult dungeons.

It's weird to me that people solo dungeons. I could never do that myself. If that is what you do? Cool. I can't speak to that experience, that's not me. If you like to circle grind 15exp mobs, cool. That's your time, not mine. I don't play like that. I play like this. And that is what I have come here to articulate. Please don't set me on fire because I like to play differently than you.