Recent Property Sales Update

An area to facilitate free-form feedback on systems (in-game or out) related to Arelith.

Moderators: Active DMs, Forum Moderators

Shrouded Wanderer
Posts: 240
Joined: Sun Jan 26, 2020 6:33 am

Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Shrouded Wanderer » Sat May 08, 2021 5:58 pm

Is thought being put towards this "for sale" name change idea when a quarter goes up for sale?

Because this is a massive QoL idea i dont think anyone in their right mind would or should take issue with

mash
Arelith Silver Supporter
Arelith Silver Supporter
Posts: 22
Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2020 3:59 pm

Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by mash » Sat May 08, 2021 5:58 pm

While I appreciate the intention of the update, I believe that the current solution will not achieve the stated goal and create bad incentives which will end up inflaming the community. This is my reasoning:

Disclaimer: I am not accusing anyone of malicious intent, neither "OOC groups", factions or the critics who welcome this change. The homogenous group who does all of the bad things I estimate to happen does not exist; reality is complex and will differ substantially case by case. Nevertheless all of these factors could come into play at least to some extent, without anyone really having bad intentions.

1) OOC groups are still favored. Large, organized groups still have a substantial advantage in obtaining property. I estimate that such groups have the manpower, organization and playtime to systematically comb desired properties. Quartercamping and -logging to check regularly will definitely happen. Groups who do not do this are at a substantial disadvantage and will be left out. A tiny fraction of newcomers and casual players will get lucky and snatch a property, but the majority of the server will have a very slim shot. OOC motivated quartersharing will increase, favoring again ooc groups.

2) Faction pressure. Holding a valuable property will be a liability. Noone will want to be that guy who decided to roll their character, or just forgot to login for a week (being less attentive since they keep it out of obligation, see below), and de facto evict their whole faction. This will create social pressure, spoken or unspoken, on to the people holding guildhouses or shops. One could retort that this is unreasonable, since a faction does not have a right to any property, and you would be right. But getting attached to digital things is human nature. One mistake and you risk upsetting everyone in your faction. The result will be that players will feel obligated do the bare minimum RP just to keep their shared property. This will not be healthy. It will also lead to massively uncomfortable DM interactions, especially when it comes to evicting a guildhall holder for quarterlogging.

3) Guildhouses will be more difficult to obtain (for their actual purpose). I estimate guildhouses will mostly end up (a) quarterlogged, (b) in the hands of private individuals looking for storage or (c) in the hands of a large faction/ooc group looking for a backup guildhouse. The ability to trade a small quarter with a larger one, realizing that a larger and more active group can use it better, will be lost completely with this update. I believe this happened more often than is generally recognized and was a significant factor for a new and upcoming faction. Leaving this completely to chance will again favor ooc groups (see 1) who will be looking for backup guildhouses in case they have to let go of one.

4) Pressure to expand. The lack of opportunities to gain any property through RP means combined with the inevitable and unpredictable loss of property creates strong incentives for ooc groups and factions to expand constantly. This is bad for guildhouses, but even worse for shops due to the large revenue potential necessary for gold sink mechanics such as the bidding for castles. Aggressive expansion will compound all problems indicated in points 1) - 3) .

I don't know what will happen - what I am sketching out is admittetly a very pessimistic scenario. I may be wrong and nothing will happen. But I think it is plausible that at least some of it will happen to a more or lesser degree, probably without any bad intentions. I do think the problems this is trying to solve are real, and coming up with solutions is more difficult than pointing out their flaws. However, in this case the cure may end up worse than the sickness.

User avatar
Irongron
Server Owner/Creative Lead
Server Owner/Creative Lead
Posts: 4066
Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2014 7:13 pm

Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Irongron » Sat May 08, 2021 6:31 pm

mash wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 5:58 pm
While I appreciate the intention of the update, I believe that the current solution will not achieve the stated goal and create bad incentives which will end up inflaming the community. This is my reasoning:

Disclaimer: I am not accusing anyone of malicious intent, neither "OOC groups", factions or the critics who welcome this change. The homogenous group who does all of the bad things I estimate to happen does not exist; reality is complex and will differ substantially case by case. Nevertheless all of these factors could come into play at least to some extent, without anyone really having bad intentions.

1) OOC groups are still favored. Large, organized groups still have a substantial advantage in obtaining property. I estimate that such groups have the manpower, organization and playtime to systematically comb desired properties. Quartercamping and -logging to check regularly will definitely happen. Groups who do not do this are at a substantial disadvantage and will be left out. A tiny fraction of newcomers and casual players will get lucky and snatch a property, but the majority of the server will have a very slim shot. OOC motivated quartersharing will increase, favoring again ooc groups.

2) Faction pressure. Holding a valuable property will be a liability. Noone will want to be that guy who decided to roll their character, or just forgot to login for a week (being less attentive since they keep it out of obligation, see below), and de facto evict their whole faction. This will create social pressure, spoken or unspoken, on to the people holding guildhouses or shops. One could retort that this is unreasonable, since a faction does not have a right to any property, and you would be right. But getting attached to digital things is human nature. One mistake and you risk upsetting everyone in your faction. The result will be that players will feel obligated do the bare minimum RP just to keep their shared property. This will not be healthy. It will also lead to massively uncomfortable DM interactions, especially when it comes to evicting a guildhall holder for quarterlogging.

3) Guildhouses will be more difficult to obtain (for their actual purpose). I estimate guildhouses will mostly end up (a) quarterlogged, (b) in the hands of private individuals looking for storage or (c) in the hands of a large faction/ooc group looking for a backup guildhouse. The ability to trade a small quarter with a larger one, realizing that a larger and more active group can use it better, will be lost completely with this update. I believe this happened more often than is generally recognized and was a significant factor for a new and upcoming faction. Leaving this completely to chance will again favor ooc groups (see 1) who will be looking for backup guildhouses in case they have to let go of one.

4) Pressure to expand. The lack of opportunities to gain any property through RP means combined with the inevitable and unpredictable loss of property creates strong incentives for ooc groups and factions to expand constantly. This is bad for guildhouses, but even worse for shops due to the large revenue potential necessary for gold sink mechanics such as the bidding for castles. Aggressive expansion will compound all problems indicated in points 1) - 3) .

I don't know what will happen - what I am sketching out is admittetly a very pessimistic scenario. I may be wrong and nothing will happen. But I think it is plausible that at least some of it will happen to a more or lesser degree, probably without any bad intentions. I do think the problems this is trying to solve are real, and coming up with solutions is more difficult than pointing out their flaws. However, in this case the cure may end up worse than the sickness.
This is an excellent critique, that really lays out some great reason for concern. I can't dismiss them, but can possibly give a few reasons as to why I am still behind it.

Regarding quarterhogging by individuals, this has long been a thing, and this update, in some cases, clearly incentives more of it. Still, this update is not intended to deal with that issue, and ultimately one character can sit on a quarter a lot less time than a coordinated group.

Regarding guildhouses more broadly, they are crying out for an entirely alternative system, one that ensures they can only be bought and used by a committed group, rather than a single, wealthy player. I discussed this issue with the DM team yesterday, and will continue to keep it on the horizon.

In the meantime, there are plenty of exceptions here. You could, for instance have your group coordinate with a settlement, provide funds, and ensure control of a brokerage area, or agree terms to use one of their state buildings (such as the farm near Cordor).

There are also fixed 'narrative' areas like the Radiant Heart and Banite Temple, and Harpers, where no matter who does or does not own quarters, the guild remains intact. I'm certainly not against adding more such areas in future, depending on player efforts.

Since announcing this update, both among the players and in staff there have been some who think this the greatest change ever, and those who find it deeply concerning.

Like much else this was a judgement call I elected to make. Let's see how it plays out.

Archnon
Posts: 612
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2019 8:05 am

Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Archnon » Sat May 08, 2021 6:33 pm

Jordenk wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 3:55 pm
Nitro wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 3:33 pm
Jordenk wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 3:04 pm
Can you set a sale price?

I ask because these properties do have a value beyond their mechanically assigned one. In the past you actually a real estate market. Prime shop locations, big homes etc.

By setting a property for sale, we should be able to set the price based on market value not a default one.
Since real estate vulturing was made forbidden by the rules by IG himself I doubt he is going to re-enable it mechanically.
What’s vulturing? Seems like we’re maybe talking about something else? I’m talking about selling a property you own and have been occupying. I wasn’t aware that was against a rule? I’ve never owned property til this PC but it’s a very common practice from what I see.

Everything else has a free market value why not property? Set an auction timer and a buy now price set by owner.... eBay is a great model. If the set price is too high the auction process will ensure property sale to highest bidder. Seems fun and a means to get a little more value out of selling a property. Take a tax on it and you’ve got another potential gold sink.
This won't work because I could set a crazy high price no one would pay, my friend would buy it and I could give the money back.


I honestly think this is a great update. I think it should hit the major guild houses as well. Honestly, if your faction wants a major quarter they can take advantage of the settlement system which, I believe, can still release quarters automatically. Bribe leaders, slander enemies, put in the RP work to make it happen.

User avatar
The GrumpyCat
Community Manager
Community Manager
Posts: 4408
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2015 5:47 pm

Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by The GrumpyCat » Sat May 08, 2021 7:11 pm

Archnon wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 6:33 pm
Jordenk wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 3:55 pm
Nitro wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 3:33 pm


Since real estate vulturing was made forbidden by the rules by IG himself I doubt he is going to re-enable it mechanically.
What’s vulturing? Seems like we’re maybe talking about something else? I’m talking about selling a property you own and have been occupying. I wasn’t aware that was against a rule? I’ve never owned property til this PC but it’s a very common practice from what I see.

Everything else has a free market value why not property? Set an auction timer and a buy now price set by owner.... eBay is a great model. If the set price is too high the auction process will ensure property sale to highest bidder. Seems fun and a means to get a little more value out of selling a property. Take a tax on it and you’ve got another potential gold sink.
This won't work because I could set a crazy high price no one would pay, my friend would buy it and I could give the money back.


I honestly think this is a great update. I think it should hit the major guild houses as well. Honestly, if your faction wants a major quarter they can take advantage of the settlement system which, I believe, can still release quarters automatically. Bribe leaders, slander enemies, put in the RP work to make it happen.
I should mention that releasing (Most) properties still causes the timer to happen.
This too shall pass.

(I now have a DM Discord (I hope) It's DM GrumpyCat#7185 but please keep in mind I'm very busy IRL so I can't promise how quick I'll get back to you.)

Hazard
Posts: 944
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:27 am

Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Hazard » Sat May 08, 2021 7:18 pm

I don't know how I feel.
I like the idea behind why this update happened. I like that we're trying to combat metagaming.
Just worried about how it will work long-term because I'm a pessimist.

Let's see!

User avatar
Apothys
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Posts: 287
Joined: Fri Apr 26, 2019 10:43 pm
Location: UK

Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Apothys » Sat May 08, 2021 8:03 pm

I see this as a great thing. This gives the majority of players a chance to grab something they could never have had before, opening up more rp and new factions rising.

There's so many places on the surface that simply seemed locked off from potential buyers and especially in the UD where there is limited Guild houses outside districts which give factions a kind of immortality as they cannot be evicted and can act much more freely and without any real repercussions than any other faction within a district.
Edric Chevalier - Active
Merklynn Steelshadow II - 'Tyrant of the Sharps' - Rolled
Gulmyr Dro'Vaalvaz - 'The Patriarch' Retired - rolled
Aerik Northman - 'The Wolf of Sencliff' - Imprisoned by Angry Trees. - rolled

xanrael
Posts: 359
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2019 5:13 pm

Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by xanrael » Sat May 08, 2021 8:12 pm

Overall I like this change, I don't think there was any perfect solution but I think this will be an improvement.
Irongron wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 6:31 pm
Regarding guildhouses more broadly, they are crying out for an entirely alternative system, one that ensures they can only be bought and used by a committed group, rather than a single, wealthy player. I discussed this issue with the DM team yesterday, and will continue to keep it on the horizon.
My suggestion on this is make the door track unique opens (by CDKEY) to reset the timer as separate value(s).
GuildmemberA (someone with a key or faction access) opens the door, now the count is 1.
GuildmemberB opens the door, now the count is 2.
GuildmemberC opens the door, now the count is 3.

The Guildmaster still has to interact with the door once during the grace period so the guildmembers alone can't keep it active.

At the least this ensures that x number of unique players access the guildhouse semi-regularly.

User avatar
Apothys
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Posts: 287
Joined: Fri Apr 26, 2019 10:43 pm
Location: UK

Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Apothys » Sat May 08, 2021 9:17 pm

another improvement maybe for Guild houses would be to put some rule in place that chests can only be used if the quarters they exist within are actually occupied, this would stop people from using Guild houses as storehouses.
Edric Chevalier - Active
Merklynn Steelshadow II - 'Tyrant of the Sharps' - Rolled
Gulmyr Dro'Vaalvaz - 'The Patriarch' Retired - rolled
Aerik Northman - 'The Wolf of Sencliff' - Imprisoned by Angry Trees. - rolled

User avatar
Irongron
Server Owner/Creative Lead
Server Owner/Creative Lead
Posts: 4066
Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2014 7:13 pm

Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Irongron » Sat May 08, 2021 9:38 pm

I've been looking at guildhouses some more, and arrived at the following decision. Note, this is not yet coded, and will go on update thread when ready.

So...

A guildhouse (as defined as a quarter with interior quarters), when timed out (due to owners absence) or released, will randomly select ONE of the interior quarters, and, if currently occupied, will transfer ownership of the guild to that person.

This way, an active guild won't have the rug pulled out from under them, and the best way to ensure continued ownership is to have the guildhouse fully used.

Drowboy
Posts: 579
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2020 8:30 am

Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Drowboy » Sat May 08, 2021 9:56 pm

If there's 5 taken quarters and 1 empty one, and it lands on the empty one, does it reroll for taken quarters, or just release?
Archnon wrote: I like the idea of slaves and slavery.

Babylon System is the Vampire
Posts: 400
Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:14 am

Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Sat May 08, 2021 9:57 pm

If my choices are "greatest change ever" or "deeply concerning" I fall in the greatest change ever column. I don't think its perfect or even as good as it could be, but its a step in the right direction. Personally I would move guild houses into the "app for" category with the caveat being if you are accepted you are expected to give it up if your faction starts to slow down drastically (without acceptable reason) or it becomes a bit of a joke after loosing time after time. Expectations could range from a great starting idea for a group to a faction built in game, and you could add and remove guild houses as you need. There is no mechanical means that will secure absolute fairness with these things, and while the human condition is flawed I think doing it through your dms is the best chance to make it as fair as possible.

As for regular property, I like the small break but I would shoot to try and set up a lotto system tied to the sale. So a property goes up for sale, it stays on sale for a week. Everyone who wants it and finds it says I will pay the cost of the apartment, and gives the gold. The system randomly chooses a winner. Now I said shoot for, because really I would have to call an old friend and convince him to script it for me if its even possible, but you got a good crew :)

User avatar
Irongron
Server Owner/Creative Lead
Server Owner/Creative Lead
Posts: 4066
Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2014 7:13 pm

Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Irongron » Sat May 08, 2021 10:00 pm

Drowboy wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 9:56 pm
If there's 5 taken quarters and 1 empty one, and it lands on the empty one, does it reroll for taken quarters, or just release?
Release

User avatar
The GrumpyCat
Community Manager
Community Manager
Posts: 4408
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2015 5:47 pm

Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by The GrumpyCat » Sat May 08, 2021 10:01 pm

Drowboy wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 9:56 pm
If there's 5 taken quarters and 1 empty one, and it lands on the empty one, does it reroll for taken quarters, or just release?
I believe it would just release.
This too shall pass.

(I now have a DM Discord (I hope) It's DM GrumpyCat#7185 but please keep in mind I'm very busy IRL so I can't promise how quick I'll get back to you.)

User avatar
Irongron
Server Owner/Creative Lead
Server Owner/Creative Lead
Posts: 4066
Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2014 7:13 pm

Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Irongron » Sat May 08, 2021 10:03 pm

Babylon System is the Vampire wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 9:57 pm
If my choices are "greatest change ever" or "deeply concerning" I fall in the greatest change ever column. I don't think its perfect or even as good as it could be, but its a step in the right direction. Personally I would move guild houses into the "app for" category with the caveat being if you are accepted you are expected to give it up if your faction starts to slow down drastically (without acceptable reason) or it becomes a bit of a joke after loosing time after time. Expectations could range from a great starting idea for a group to a faction built in game, and you could add and remove guild houses as you need. There is no mechanical means that will secure absolute fairness with these things, and while the human condition is flawed I think doing it through your dms is the best chance to make it as fair as possible.

As for regular property, I like the small break but I would shoot to try and set up a lotto system tied to the sale. So a property goes up for sale, it stays on sale for a week. Everyone who wants it and finds it says I will pay the cost of the apartment, and gives the gold. The system randomly chooses a winner. Now I said shoot for, because really I would have to call an old friend and convince him to script it for me if its even possible, but you got a good crew :)
I wouldn't want it to be by application, as even with the best will in the world a degree of bias is almost unavoidable, and even if DMs could be unbiased, many players would not see it that way. It is the same issue I'd have with asking DMs to adjudicate on which transfers were and were not valid.

Hrothgar Bloodaxe
Posts: 16
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2020 8:44 pm

Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Hrothgar Bloodaxe » Sat May 08, 2021 11:26 pm

So, I have a number of concerns, some of which have already been voiced, such as in Mash's very well-articulated post. Here are some additional concerns/food for thought.

To start - I agree that the issue of OOC property transactions, and the concentration of property amongst a few groups, is an issue. I think that's pretty much a given/haven't seen anyone dispute that.

The problem is, this solution does little to solve that, and will lead to, quite frankly, a lot less RP/community building.

The entire point of a faction, is to create a "whole that is greater than the sum of its parts." I.e., a faction isn't about one person - it's about a community. One of the main purposes of a community, is having continuity of things the community creates and builds together. What this update does, is make the mechanics of building a community borderline impossible.

If properties cannot be exchanged between members, then they are, functionally, no different than random strangers. And since there is (and has not ever been) a clearly defined standard on how much playing time is "enough" not to have a quarter pulled by a DM...the entire system of property ownership becomes extremely arbitrary, with players constantly unsure of if they're playing enough to secure a quarter, but unable to pass it off to another in their guild to alleviate that concern. At bare minimum, this update should also include clear, transparent standards for what is considered "active possession"of a quarter, so that people can be certain that they will have the availability needed to hold a quarter for their faction.

Some have said that "this update will give a chance for new guilds to form." Which, is possible, although I agree with others that the largest, most entrenched groups will still have a significant advantage. But, more to the point, while new guilds will form, they will also very die at a rapid pace, since all it takes is one member to stop playing, to significantly disrupt the faction. The whole idea of "building something over time" basically falls apart here.

This all being said, I acknowledge the problem of long-term "guild hoarding." But I think there's a much better way to address this problem: Place all of the guildhalls under an auction system similar to the castles, but make it so that it is an "open" system, that does not require a settlement "sponsor."

This way, the halls go up for grabs, every 6 months (or whatever the length of time is determined to be). It's a way to take gold out of circulation, that isn't just getting handed back and forth between players - this prevents the "generational transfer of wealth" that so many people are unhappy with. And, it provides some degree of stability - players could still exchange guildhalls within their guild, in case someone leaves; but, there would still be a natural, publicly-known interval at which others could attempt to purchase it, thereby helping to prevent long-term guild hoarding.

And, the system above, fosters community, as players can coordinate their donations, and generally work together to raise money, so that factions have a chance to acquire something *as a faction,* and not just as a group of individuals.

In terms of shops and single quarters, I think the solution here is simply to increase the available supply. Inserting chaos and arbitrary disruption doesn't really increase the supply to new players; it just leads to even more extreme forms of OOC collaboration as people begin to stake out properties 24/7. If there are enough shops and quarters to go around, then this removes the incentive to hoard things.

User avatar
Inordinate
Arelith Silver Supporter
Arelith Silver Supporter
Posts: 100
Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2016 5:15 am

Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Inordinate » Sat May 08, 2021 11:44 pm

For the most part I agree with doing something to alleviate quarters being stuck to certain groups. I can't articulate much at this moment but I did want to point out that within even a controlling faction it is often possible for the faction to undergo enough changes internally to only superficially be what it once was. I've seen several factions look very little like they did several months ago due to the efforts of many new faces and influences contributing to the sum total - but you might not see that in a passing glance that the vast majority of people give to these groups. Yeah, a group holding down a particular guildhall might have familiar faces months later but if you aren't engaging with them you might not even be aware of what's changed since they joined.


Aside from that Hrothgar is 10000% right here. Scarcity causes the problem to begin with. You don't need an entire city launch to add new quarters, I can see unused doorways all over many areas that can have player quarters/guild halls added, let alone adding newer areas connected to existing that expands that purpose. It doesn't even need to be huge numbers of them or all at once. 'muh immershun' can take a backseat to a church or large building getting abruptly expanded to have new quarters/guildhalls because the benefits far outweight that brief break.
Hrothgar Bloodaxe wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 11:26 pm
In terms of shops and single quarters, I think the solution here is simply to increase the available supply. Inserting chaos and arbitrary disruption doesn't really increase the supply to new players; it just leads to even more extreme forms of OOC collaboration as people begin to stake out properties 24/7. If there are enough shops and quarters to go around, then this removes the incentive to hoard things.
If need there comes to shelter my ship on the flood;
The wind I calm upon the waves, and the sea I put to sleep

User avatar
ReverentBlade
Posts: 423
Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:45 am

Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by ReverentBlade » Sun May 09, 2021 1:37 am

This change is the result of a few people perpetually pushing things just past the edge of be nice. It significantly decreases the value of social and intrigue RP to build connections to acquire the good stuff.

I feel like the actual consequence of this change is that original owners, not being able to have some measure of control as to who inherits their property, will just bunker down and keep it themselves all that much longer. I believe we're going to see homes change hands less frequently, not more.

Targeted intervention would have far better outcomes than sweeping changes.

Vain_Duplicity
Posts: 8
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2015 4:46 pm

Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Vain_Duplicity » Sun May 09, 2021 1:51 am

I appreciate the motives behind this change but it needs to be reverted. It is going to do 'more harm' than 'good'.

What about long standing institutions who decide to elect a new leader due to the person quitting the character/being removed from the faction? There are many responsible players/factions who make all these decisions through RP, IC influence and narrative; they do not hide behind the 'I have the lease, I cannot be evicted; it's my way or the highway'. I just feel as though many (small or large) factions are going to be displaced regardless of if they have justified the use of that property or not.

If there is a problem with individuals owning property, or a faction 'hogging' a guild house - then why are we leaving it to a lottery-based system? With enough effort, political intrigue, RP involvement of many parties and both story/interaction, you can create massive IC change. You can see factions defeated and properties turned over (many people have done it). Yes, it's challenging. But it is also fun. Take over the settlement. Evict them. Make a deal with the settlement leader for that 'flag ship' property.

User avatar
ReverentBlade
Posts: 423
Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:45 am

Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by ReverentBlade » Sun May 09, 2021 1:54 am

This change also disregards that many factions, especially when just starting out, are often ran out of a single non-guildhouse property. Acquiring this property is often a group effort with several people scouring the module for a workable property, and now the first person to find it has to hold onto it for dear life forever.

This feels like an annoying amount of intrusion into faction dynamics, when adding generic housing districts and performing appropriate DM oversight over the module's roleplay environment would accomplish the intended goal with far less disruption.

I can't help but feel like its a bit of a labor-saving bandaid so the DMs can say they did something about a legitimate problem without having to take the flak for making difficult calls.

Jordenk
Posts: 356
Joined: Sun Oct 06, 2019 10:56 am

Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Jordenk » Sun May 09, 2021 2:09 am

I like the idea, but it strikes me as limiting the ability to meaningfully build a faction and transfer assets, which is a big part of merchant and faction rp. It seems to remove a lot of important IC agency to counter a problem that it may not even fix. Dunno, it’s a tough one.

There’s definitely a problem but not sure if this is a meaningful solution to it. In product development there’s the exercise of problem solution fit validation to identify if the proposed solution meaningful addressed the identified problem. I’m not sure on this case it does, and it perhaps causes other issues that are worse than the benefits afforded.

I don’t know how exactly one can properly manage a faction, with multiple members, properties and stores in any reasonable way now. Turnover happens, so then what, that store that the faction painstakingly got just is gone because they can’t transfer to another active member when someone rolls or real life happens? It is really a heavy handed limitation on a mechanic that has a ripple effect on a lot of rp in ways that are hard to unravel.

Edit: The more and more I think about this actually the more concerned I am for how It affects and limits faction development and rp. Property is owned by individuals as proxies for a faction and there are countless good reasons to transfer ownership. If you’re really going to keep it this way, allow a faction to own properties instead of just a player in the name of a faction. That might solve a lot of the potential problems this change makes.
Last edited by Jordenk on Sun May 09, 2021 2:33 am, edited 2 times in total.

Definately Not A Mimic
Posts: 75
Joined: Tue Jan 21, 2020 3:29 pm

Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Definately Not A Mimic » Sun May 09, 2021 2:21 am

I would really hate to see the nice places tied to an auction. The group who grinds the most gold, who dungeon runs the most, who was lucky enough to find a nice location shop etc, gets the best place too? Too many things are tied to gold as it is and one more thing to encourage grinding for shiny coin over taking the time to rp isn't needed, imo.

I'm sure there are two sides to this too like all things and I'm probably not seeing that, but please don't make it 'only the rich get good things'. If you want a gold sink increase the monthly tax on the buildings, the better, nicer, bigger, the more expensive.

Hrothgar Bloodaxe
Posts: 16
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2020 8:44 pm

Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Hrothgar Bloodaxe » Sun May 09, 2021 2:48 am

Definately Not A Mimic wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 2:21 am
I would really hate to see the nice places tied to an auction. The group who grinds the most gold, who dungeon runs the most, who was lucky enough to find a nice location shop etc, gets the best place too? Too many things are tied to gold as it is and one more thing to encourage grinding for shiny coin over taking the time to rp isn't needed, imo.

I'm sure there are two sides to this too like all things and I'm probably not seeing that, but please don't make it 'only the rich get good things'. If you want a gold sink increase the monthly tax on the buildings, the better, nicer, bigger, the more expensive.
I agree with this, for sure. My suggestion to have guildhouses tied to the auction system was more of a "this is a lesser of the two evils" suggestion. To your point, it still favors the wealthy and organized; i.e. the people who are already ahead. But at least in that system, factions could pass property between members under the current rules.

Ultimately, the issue is supply and demand. Arelith has *far* more players than it has housing or shops. There is literally nothing that can be done, mechanically, that's going to overpower that universal force of supply/demand.

I think someone made a great point that there are a lot of "ghost doors" in cities and buildings currently, and that this would be a great place to start, in terms of adding supply. Because until supply increases, or demand decreases, people will always find clever ways to game the system, because there's such a tremendous incentive to do so.

AstralUniverse
Posts: 1366
Joined: Sun Dec 15, 2019 2:54 pm

Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by AstralUniverse » Sun May 09, 2021 3:03 am

This is huge. I consider it entirely impossible to predict how it will turn out in the long run, at this point. One thing I will say is that I'm sure the instances of seeing the same name on a quarter for really long time periods will increase, but that's not a bad thing because it's still better (and easier for DMs to work with, for sure) than quarters switching hands frequently inside the same ooc clique for years. Another thing is small factions with normal quarter functioning as a guildhouse. Those groups will find themselves pressured to get more quarters and expand in order to not be depended on one player's activity. That's all I got, and I really think speculating much further than that is like drifting in the unknown void.
Former Characters: Kirk Senner, Lorian Darkmoon, Rayne Mashavelle, Arkin Abellan, Ryth Ellaniar, Storm Kel Abu'adir, Edros Mashavelle.

User avatar
LichBait
Posts: 311
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2016 9:50 pm
Location: US EST Timezone

Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by LichBait » Sun May 09, 2021 3:30 am

The two biggest issues with this:

Legitimate turning over of faction assets through strictly RP means to a more junior member of a still thriving faction is now null. It may hinder/hamper multi-generational factions and dilute the possibility of longer standing institutions. (Which may be the goal, but I think some long standing institutions can be healthy provided they're actually interacting with the server/world around them.)

Lack of control over city property for a government to grant incentive loyal citizens, or a lack of way for an incumbent to build a voter base by promise of installing /new/ institutions. Which kind of runs counter intuitive to the property turnover desire this change was attempting.

I do appreciate that recognizing that OOC shifting of assets is being frowned upon. I also think most of us try to RP out any transfer of IG assets when RP dictates/requires it. I'm not sure this automated solution will solve the issue more effectively than just simply looking into how a property was transferred and disciplining those who do so with little/no RP. Folk who are Discord gaming are just going to ping/post guards over the assets 24/7 until they nab it again IMO. Granted, I am not a DM and don't precisely understand how hard it may be to sift through likely mountains of logs to look into the issue.
PC: Ilphaeryl Xun'viir

"Improvisation is the mark of a true warrior." ~Jarlaxle
"Dos'nt inbal natha cow, jaluk." ~Kalopsia

Post Reply