Recent Property Sales Update

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DM Snowcat
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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by DM Snowcat » Tue May 18, 2021 10:56 am

Currently we do not see it as a rulebreak to wait by a sign for it to come up. Even if it's for long periods of time.
What is rulebreak though, is to block people from accessing the sign. If you see someone exploiting that, blocking you from taking visit at the sign, that is against the rules and please do report it to us.
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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by AstralUniverse » Tue May 18, 2021 3:53 pm

DM Snowcat wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 10:56 am
Currently we do not see it as a rulebreak to wait by a sign for it to come up. Even if it's for long periods of time.
What is rulebreak though, is to block people from accessing the sign. If you see someone exploiting that, blocking you from taking visit at the sign, that is against the rules and please do report it to us.
So to be clear... if I literally camp a sign. literally opening up a tent next to the sign, and RPing camping the sign but without mechanically occupying the sign, it is all good? O.o
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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Curve » Tue May 18, 2021 4:03 pm

Beyond what Astral is asking is it acceptable to block people from accessing the sign by saying, 'if you look at that sign or come near it I will kill you'? Or do you mean by locking up the sign by interacting with it?

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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by AstralUniverse » Tue May 18, 2021 4:07 pm

I'm pretty sure they mean mechanically. I would be VERY surprised if there's a rule against threatening people in character, while not mechanically blocking the sign.
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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by DM Snowcat » Tue May 18, 2021 4:21 pm

AstralUniverse wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 3:53 pm
DM Snowcat wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 10:56 am
-
So to be clear... if I literally camp a sign. literally opening up a tent next to the sign, and RPing camping the sign but without mechanically occupying the sign, it is all good? O.o
You can absolutely do that.
I don't know about the PvP part, I'll let someone more knowing pick that question.
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Gurken
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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Gurken » Tue May 18, 2021 5:37 pm

DM Snowcat wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 10:56 am
You can absolutely do that.
I don't know about the PvP part, I'll let someone more knowing pick that question.
And will players be punished by having a GM come and manually reset the time until release to sale by excuse of:
"Scaring off the landlord, property mangers, or inspectors" (or by direct use of DM tools or other means) as this is what I was told repeatedly, ICly and OOCly by other players.

I was as well as warned that simply being near a sign was in bad form, and that loitering was something that could risk being banned which appears to have been clarified.

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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Curve » Tue May 18, 2021 5:52 pm

Gurken wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 5:37 pm
DM Snowcat wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 10:56 am
You can absolutely do that.
I don't know about the PvP part, I'll let someone more knowing pick that question.
And will players be punished by having a GM come and manually reset the time until release to sale by excuse of:
"Scaring off the landlord, property mangers, or inspectors" (or by direct use of DM tools or other means) as this is what I was told repeatedly, ICly and OOCly by other players.

I was as well as warned that simply being near a sign was in bad form, and that loitering was something that could risk being banned which appears to have been clarified.
I don't know what to tell you, Gurken, other than you seem to be deep inside the rumor mill and I would not trust anything from players who tell you these things. The only official statement that has been given is,
DM Snowcat wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 10:56 am
Currently we do not see it as a rulebreak to wait by a sign for it to come up. Even if it's for long periods of time.
What is rulebreak though, is to block people from accessing the sign. If you see someone exploiting that, blocking you from taking visit at the sign, that is against the rules and please do report it to us.

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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by DM Snowcat » Tue May 18, 2021 5:58 pm

Gurken wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 5:37 pm
DM Snowcat wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 10:56 am
-
And will players be punished by having a GM come and manually reset the time until release to sale by excuse of:
"Scaring off the landlord, property mangers, or inspectors" (or by direct use of DM tools or other means) as this is what I was told repeatedly, ICly and OOCly by other players.

I was as well as warned that simply being near a sign was in bad form, and that loitering was something that could risk being banned which appears to have been clarified.

That was just myself with DM Hoodoo being silly before the official ruling was cleared with the Admins, that a property manager NPC came to bugger people off from loitering.
My deepest apologies if it started a rumor mill, but we have never said that such could risk being banned or anything else. We are also unable to reset the time, so I have no idea where that rumor came from.
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Hazard
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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Hazard » Wed May 19, 2021 2:58 am

This seems to be applying to rental ships, making it really hard to get one even when they're not being used.
Also, is this supposed to be applying to shops as well?

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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Red_Wharf » Sat May 22, 2021 3:31 am

If someone hears about a large quarter or guild house going for sale soon, tell me. Not that I want to buy it, I just want to watch the chaos by the quarter lease unfold. We already have characters camping outside small quarters, imagine what will happen if something like the Sibayad desert fort ever goes for sale? I'm already making some popcorn to watch the bloodbath.

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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Irongron » Sat May 22, 2021 8:06 am

Hazard wrote:
Wed May 19, 2021 2:58 am
This seems to be applying to rental ships, making it really hard to get one even when they're not being used.
Also, is this supposed to be applying to shops as well?
It shouldn't affect rental ships, but as they use a different system it is taking some time to update them all.

Shops priced over 20k will be affected.

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-XXX-
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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by -XXX- » Sat May 22, 2021 8:27 am

Irongron wrote:
Sat May 22, 2021 8:06 am
Hazard wrote:
Wed May 19, 2021 2:58 am
This seems to be applying to rental ships, making it really hard to get one even when they're not being used.
Also, is this supposed to be applying to shops as well?
It shouldn't affect rental ships, but as they use a different system it is taking some time to update them all.
I can confirm that I have seen the Penny Rose set on sale, but clearly on a timer as it had been owned by someone else and I were unable to rent it.

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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Wings of Peace » Sat May 22, 2021 6:20 pm

DM Snowcat wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 4:21 pm
AstralUniverse wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 3:53 pm
DM Snowcat wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 10:56 am
-
So to be clear... if I literally camp a sign. literally opening up a tent next to the sign, and RPing camping the sign but without mechanically occupying the sign, it is all good? O.o
You can absolutely do that.
I don't know about the PvP part, I'll let someone more knowing pick that question.
This seems sensible considering there's no other way for people to persue a specific property anymore. With choice mechanics nuked to the ground banning sign camping would be the same as just telling everyone to be happy if they get anything they like at all.

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Pixelburner
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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Pixelburner » Tue May 25, 2021 11:17 am

Not sure if it's been discussed before but what would be nice is to have a one-time token every 3 months (or 6?) to extend the refresh duration to 14 days instead of 7, just for the purpose of holidays. The token could be activated from the quarter sign.

Would be less cumbersome than having to go DM request > transfer to someone > DM request > transfer back.

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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Party in the forest at midnight » Tue May 25, 2021 4:04 pm

Pixelburner wrote:
Tue May 25, 2021 11:17 am
Not sure if it's been discussed before but what would be nice is to have a one-time token every 3 months (or 6?) to extend the refresh duration to 14 days instead of 7, just for the purpose of holidays. The token could be activated from the quarter sign.

Would be less cumbersome than having to go DM request > transfer to someone > DM request > transfer back.
This is a really good idea.

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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Nurel » Wed May 26, 2021 10:31 am

regarding the changes to the rentable ships on surface:

The Ruby Red (ex Penny Rose, Brog port) is currently listed as "up for sale" but cannot be rented until it will be "released". I think this means it is still sugjected to the transfer delay script. I think it should be free to rent the moment a lease expires after the last update. Currently the msg I get from the ship quarter sign is:

Image

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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Irongron » Wed May 26, 2021 11:01 am

Nurel wrote:
Wed May 26, 2021 10:31 am
regarding the changes to the rentable ships on surface:

The Ruby Red (ex Penny Rose, Brog port) is currently listed as "up for sale" but cannot be rented until it will be "released". I think this means it is still sugjected to the transfer delay script. I think it should be free to rent the moment a lease expires after the last update. Currently the msg I get from the ship quarter sign is:

Image
I'll take a look into this, thanks.

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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by FallenDabus » Thu May 27, 2021 2:20 pm

I feel the approach could be tweaked to help encourage players more to help with the desired outcome.

Property Bid System: Buyer
When a shop or quarter is released or put up for sale it can be bid on for 3 days. For ships, estates and guild halls this is extended to 7 days. During that time, interacting with the property sign gives a character two options:
  • Option 1 - Place Bid: You pay the value of the property. If you lose the bid you regain 50% of the bid. If you win the bid you regain 0% of it.
  • Option 2 - Place Bribe: You pay three times the value of the property for a better chance to win the bid on the property. You regain 0% of it regardless if you win or lose the bid.
Once the sale period expires one of those who bid on the shop or quarter is determined randomly. "Place Bid" gives you 3 tickets. "Place Bribe" gives you 4 tickets. Characters of players who have not owned a shop or quarter in the last year gain an additional ticket for free. This includes characters of new players.

If you win a property, the buyer receives a server message informing them of it. If a property is not sold within the time, it simply renews for another 3 to 7 days.


Property Bid System: Seller
So where do 50% of the bids and 100% of the bribes end up? If the refresh timer or rent lapsed, all of it goes to the server. After all, this is a system that encourages players to put their property up for sale.

If the character put it up for sale, 50% of it goes to the character and 50% of it goes to the server. So a character selling a property will receive a total of 25% of each "Place Bid" and 50% of each "Place Bribe". So 25% of the property value for each placed bid, and 150% property value for each "Place Bribe".

If a player rolls a character with a shop worth over 25k or a quarter worth over 100k, they gain a +5% chance for a major reward. Similar to how characters gain an improved chance at a major reward for the gold they hold.


Boring Design Breakdown
Currently, there is no real incentive to put a great shop or quarter up for sale. You can not pass it on to a character your own has grown fond of or know will use it in a neat way your character would love to support. Unless you are rolling a character, just got yourself a better shop or quarter, or you have to reduce your playtime significantly, there is no real reason to give one up.

Worse, the current demand for quarters and shops create a sense of loss aversion. You likely put a lot of time and effort into decorating it. The chances to get something as nice again are simply not great. So you are giving up something great you are unlikely to get back anytime soon.

This system would significantly change it. Your character gets 25% of the property value for each "Placed Bid", and 150% of the property value for each "Placed Bribe". Multiple bids and bribes quickly begin to add up. Dangling carrots for players to part with loved characters is already being done with a chance of gaining minor, normal, greater and major rewards for rolling a character. We would just be introducing something akin to this for quarters and shops.

Popular shops and smaller quarters that have lower property values will have both tons of placed bids and tons of placed bribes. A shop in Andunor Hub is worth 25k. Cheap enough for a lot of bids, and cheap enough for a lot of attempted bribes. For each bid, the character selling gets 6.250 gold, while for each bribe they get 37.500 gold.

Estates, Guild Houses, and Ships will have tons of bids and a few attempted bribes. An Elven Quarter estate is worth 350k. An attempted bribe would cost over a million gold for a slightly better chance, and you are not getting any of that back. That is going to be pretty steep for most characters. For each bid, the character selling gets 87.500 gold and for each attempted bribe they get 525.000 gold.

In both the example with the Andunor Shop and the Elven Quarter Estate, the person putting it up for sale is going to make a fair bit of coin. This significantly incentive parting with a shop or an estate you own.

The reason 50% of the bids always go to the server is not to create a gold sink (which is a nice side effect) but to avoid schemes to kickback bids via factions and friends. If 100% of them went to the character selling the property (higher turnover incentive) that character could simply give them back the gold to his pals after the sale (causing similar issues to the old system).

The "Place Bribe" option is not to give wealthy characters a slight advantage, but to increase overall property turnover via wealthy characters sweetening the pot to encourage property sales. Characters using "Place Bribe" make it much more lucrative for players to part with valuable shops and quarters, giving everyone a significantly bigger chance at getting one by turnover increasing.

The additional chance to win a major reward is simply a niche incentive. It is unlikely to be abused because gaining such properties is difficult. If a character does win a bid on a shop or quarter for their player to use to increase their chance at a reward, the property would just go up for sale again quickly anyway.

The exact number of tickets and percentages of the cuts would of course need to be carefully balanced. This is all more of a ballpark suggestion.

Finally, placing bids has the nice side effect of valuing player time. Currently, it is a system where folks feel encouraged to camp out near property signs. That does not make for a great experience. After all, they could be off hunting or roleplaying, or both! With this system, active players with less time or who rather spent their time roleplaying will have the same chance as everyone.

Overall, in locations with higher demand for quarters it creates higher incentives for turnover.
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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Definately Not A Mimic » Thu May 27, 2021 8:03 pm

Any method that makes paying out more money to give yourself a better chance pretty well negates the part about making things equally accessible to new and old players/characters.

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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Irongron » Thu May 27, 2021 9:01 pm

FallenDabus wrote:
Thu May 27, 2021 2:20 pm
I feel the approach could be tweaked to help encourage players more to help with the desired outcome.

Property Bid System: Buyer
When a shop or quarter is released or put up for sale it can be bid on for 3 days. For ships, estates and guild halls this is extended to 7 days. During that time, interacting with the property sign gives a character two options:
  • Option 1 - Place Bid: You pay the value of the property. If you lose the bid you regain 50% of the bid. If you win the bid you regain 0% of it.
  • Option 2 - Place Bribe: You pay three times the value of the property for a better chance to win the bid on the property. You regain 0% of it regardless if you win or lose the bid.
Once the sale period expires one of those who bid on the shop or quarter is determined randomly. "Place Bid" gives you 3 tickets. "Place Bribe" gives you 4 tickets. Characters of players who have not owned a shop or quarter in the last year gain an additional ticket for free. This includes characters of new players.

If you win a property, the buyer receives a server message informing them of it. If a property is not sold within the time, it simply renews for another 3 to 7 days.


Property Bid System: Seller
So where do 50% of the bids and 100% of the bribes end up? If the refresh timer or rent lapsed, all of it goes to the server. After all, this is a system that encourages players to put their property up for sale.

If the character put it up for sale, 50% of it goes to the character and 50% of it goes to the server. So a character selling a property will receive a total of 25% of each "Place Bid" and 50% of each "Place Bribe". So 25% of the property value for each placed bid, and 150% property value for each "Place Bribe".

If a player rolls a character with a shop worth over 25k or a quarter worth over 100k, they gain a +5% chance for a major reward. Similar to how characters gain an improved chance at a major reward for the gold they hold.


Boring Design Breakdown
Currently, there is no real incentive to put a great shop or quarter up for sale. You can not pass it on to a character your own has grown fond of or know will use it in a neat way your character would love to support. Unless you are rolling a character, just got yourself a better shop or quarter, or you have to reduce your playtime significantly, there is no real reason to give one up.

Worse, the current demand for quarters and shops create a sense of loss aversion. You likely put a lot of time and effort into decorating it. The chances to get something as nice again are simply not great. So you are giving up something great you are unlikely to get back anytime soon.

This system would significantly change it. Your character gets 25% of the property value for each "Placed Bid", and 150% of the property value for each "Placed Bribe". Multiple bids and bribes quickly begin to add up. Dangling carrots for players to part with loved characters is already being done with a chance of gaining minor, normal, greater and major rewards for rolling a character. We would just be introducing something akin to this for quarters and shops.

Popular shops and smaller quarters that have lower property values will have both tons of placed bids and tons of placed bribes. A shop in Andunor Hub is worth 25k. Cheap enough for a lot of bids, and cheap enough for a lot of attempted bribes. For each bid, the character selling gets 6.250 gold, while for each bribe they get 37.500 gold.

Estates, Guild Houses, and Ships will have tons of bids and a few attempted bribes. An Elven Quarter estate is worth 350k. An attempted bribe would cost over a million gold for a slightly better chance, and you are not getting any of that back. That is going to be pretty steep for most characters. For each bid, the character selling gets 87.500 gold and for each attempted bribe they get 525.000 gold.

In both the example with the Andunor Shop and the Elven Quarter Estate, the person putting it up for sale is going to make a fair bit of coin. This significantly incentive parting with a shop or an estate you own.

The reason 50% of the bids always go to the server is not to create a gold sink (which is a nice side effect) but to avoid schemes to kickback bids via factions and friends. If 100% of them went to the character selling the property (higher turnover incentive) that character could simply give them back the gold to his pals after the sale (causing similar issues to the old system).

The "Place Bribe" option is not to give wealthy characters a slight advantage, but to increase overall property turnover via wealthy characters sweetening the pot to encourage property sales. Characters using "Place Bribe" make it much more lucrative for players to part with valuable shops and quarters, giving everyone a significantly bigger chance at getting one by turnover increasing.

The additional chance to win a major reward is simply a niche incentive. It is unlikely to be abused because gaining such properties is difficult. If a character does win a bid on a shop or quarter for their player to use to increase their chance at a reward, the property would just go up for sale again quickly anyway.

The exact number of tickets and percentages of the cuts would of course need to be carefully balanced. This is all more of a ballpark suggestion.

Finally, placing bids has the nice side effect of valuing player time. Currently, it is a system where folks feel encouraged to camp out near property signs. That does not make for a great experience. After all, they could be off hunting or roleplaying, or both! With this system, active players with less time or who rather spent their time roleplaying will have the same chance as everyone.

Overall, in locations with higher demand for quarters it creates higher incentives for turnover.
I just wanted to quickly say that I really appreciate this suggestion, you've clearly put a lot of thought in, and really considered the implications.

I'm not planning on revising the new system, any time soon, and even if so the above suggestion would take some work to code. Still, I'm definitely going to keep something like this in mind for the future, it's really impressive.

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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Thu May 27, 2021 9:07 pm

Yeah, that sounds really good.

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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Gideon DeVay » Tue Jun 01, 2021 8:18 pm

I've been fascinated watching all the discussion and ideas this thread generated. I've always been obsessed with quarters, particularly in Cordor. I've probably lived in over half of them.

My first week on the server, a leader in the Triad gave me his Commons quarter when he found a better place. This was amazing to me. I was the knight's apprentice, so this was both natural and engaging as a new player.

I will always remember the Christmas I came across that corner-quarter in the Cordor gov't district and realizing it was up for sale. That was on my first toon. and I was extremely excited by the RP potential of a quarter with a fireplace and a haunted kitchen. I had so much fun there.

The OOC quarter gaming is a tough nut to crack, and I applaud the Admin/DM Team for the most elegant solution possible to truly combat an unseen and unverifiable problem. It's true---the majority of large property exchange is either coordinated OOC or in nepotistic fashion in-game. I'd be a liar if I said I haven't been part of that OOC problem in the past. Still, I recall incredible generosity, from multiple users who have commented in this thread, when they discovered lapsed quarters. I saw one seasoned player (flower power) rush to find a brand new group of Iilmater RPers to get them the Cordor Temple. I recall well when Aradin's toon generously offered a home in the Tungsten Turret--a truly perfect place to RP. When my gnome wizard was appointed as an attaché to Myon, he was given a sprawling mansion by the Coronal's faction. I've traded properties with other characters for multiple reasons, and I was straight-up given a shop in Cordor from another well-established player simply because I asked. I've never had long-term issues finding quarters, save for when I am not involved in RP.

All this to say, I've experienced much more kindness and inclusivity as a newer player on the server than I have cold-shouldering and guildhouse-hoarding. I've never paid over the mechanical value of a quarter, ever, and I've never really had a problem finding a quarter somewhere on the server--never where I wanted, at first, but always somewhere with room for a story to grow.

With the new system, RP is effectively out of the running as a transfer medium. If that's what it takes to end the hoarding, so be it--but I think it's sad. It's sad that the "good" the old system allowed, time and time again in my case, is quieter than the "bad."
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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by The Rambling Midget » Tue Jun 22, 2021 10:13 am

DM Snowcat wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 10:56 am
Currently we do not see it as a rulebreak to wait by a sign for it to come up. Even if it's for long periods of time.
And that's exactly what's happening to just about every quarter or shop I see, now. I've seen someone wait, watch, and tap, for hours, and hours, and hours, because they knew a shop was coming up for sale. No one with any meaningful degree of RL responsibilities can compete with that.

We've merely traded one overwhelmingly favored player subset for another, but now RP has been completely removed from the equation.

How is this fair or balanced?
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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Nitro » Tue Jun 22, 2021 10:43 am

On the plus side, you can interact with these campers, drive them off or talk to them as you please. Can't do that with a discord handoff.

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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Flower Power » Tue Jun 22, 2021 10:55 am

The Rambling Midget wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 10:13 am
DM Snowcat wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 10:56 am
Currently we do not see it as a rulebreak to wait by a sign for it to come up. Even if it's for long periods of time.
And that's exactly what's happening to just about every quarter or shop I see, now. I've seen someone wait, watch, and tap, for hours, and hours, and hours, because they knew a shop was coming up for sale. No one with any meaningful degree of RL responsibilities can compete with that.

We've merely traded one overwhelmingly favored player subset for another, but now RP has been completely removed from the equation.

How is this fair or balanced?
I've yet to see a shop or decent quarter be pinged as 'Soon to be for sale!' without people camping it.
what would fred rogers do?

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