Recent Property Sales Update

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ScalesofEquilibrium
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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by ScalesofEquilibrium » Mon May 10, 2021 3:51 pm

Kessarin wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 2:56 pm
Recently, the PC owner of Cordor's Nomad held interviews to select the next person to transfer ownership, because said owner wanted someone she felt would bring the place to life. There was so much RP generated from this process, because other PCs were talking about it, saying that they would endorse X applicant over Y applicant, and then everyone discussed the aftermath of when Y applicant was chosen. Some of the applicants met to discuss collaborative plans, or a lack thereof. The whole process was like a mini-election, almost, and it quite fun to see that initial drop in the RP waters create so many ripples.

Such a thing wouldn't be able to happen under the new system, and that stymies RP on what is touted to be a RP server. I'm reminded of a quote by American author Margaret Wheatley: "The things we fear most in organizations - fluctuations, disturbances, imbalances - are the primary sources of creativity."

While I recognize the good intentions of this system, it is not a good system to implement. The massive amount of RP that factions generate because they worked hard, invested time and energy, and did things in the spirit of collaborative RP should not be disregarded so that someone brand-new to the server can achieve Day One what it took the faction players months, years, to achieve. They had to start at the bottom, too, and build their way to their success. And now they're penalized for it? And could lose everything to someone who hasn't invested near as much time or contributed near as much to the server? That will lead to more OOC resentment and far more toxicity than the present system. Where is the incentive to strive for 30 or 40 RPR if your best efforts could be lost? Don't take your long-term players and their investment into this world for granted.

A purely hypothetical analogy: Irongron has been working on Arelith for years now. (A long term faction.) He's built it into a tour de force, but none of this truly belongs to him, because the source game rights belong to someone else. (The property is leased.) What if Beamdog suddenly decides that it's not fair that Irongron has built this comprehensive world of Arelith, because there are newer module creators who want to build stuff, too? And what if, when Irongron eventually wants to focus on other things, instead of getting to choose to hand over Arelith to someone he knows and trusts to keep it alive, Beamdog says... nope, Arelith's going to some random person who is lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time? (This current system.)
Would anyone support that outcome? I know I wouldn't.

Since everything else is automated and recorded, develop a system so that targeted properties are flagged for DM review if they do not have 1) X amount of unique PC touches to the main door, and 2) Y amount of spoken lines taking place within the property by X/3 PCs over the course of Z time. Make people use it or lose it; if they're getting IG only to game the system, then at least make them work for it through RP.

And don't slap the whole of the playerbase in response to the actions of a select few.
This entire post is a big +1 from me, and better than I could put it. The analogy sheds light on the faulty premise of the reasoning behind this update. I, too, would never support that outcome happening to Irongron.

Frankly, this is supposed to be a Roleplaying server - and further, it is one that has mechanics and goals such as RPR that encourage better roleplay. That means that IC actions and RP should be the primary factor to strive for - and I would assume 30 and 40 has coupled with it long-term expectations instead of a couple months and roll. What makes Neverwinter Nights so much different (and better imho) than other MMO-esque games is the idea that our actions as characters can collectively impact and leave marks that change the game world around us.

One of these things is the idea of a Guild or Faction. Unlike other MMOs where this is simply a clan of friends playing together, in NWN Guilds and Factions collectively work together to impact the game world in ways the individuals could never achieve alone. If I, as a new player and new character, want to strive to achieve greater status, I need to either put in a lot of effort individually that will take a far longer time and be much more difficult (and it SHOULD be) - or I can find like-minded characters to my own, and join them to pursue bigger and better things than the sum of our parts. This is teamwork, this is generating RP... this should be the easier route.

What makes a Guild/Faction/etc special in NWN is the idea of progressing within it. Leadership may retire, die, move on . . . but their protégé can take up the mantle, continuing and building upon the work and efforts of those before them... and so on. Such things should take a lot of invested time, and effort, to achieve. Such things -can- be regulated to ensure that there is no gamey OOC motivation behind the curtain. However... this Property Sale update further hurts some of the major assets any group/Guild/Faction/etc needs in order to succeed.

As with all things in life, Factions need wealth and coin in order to put their mark on the world. Coin can be achieved by writs, and by hunting... but the real money is in crafting and shops. Crafting and shops require storage. Storage is limited at twenty items. I like to think of it as an old real-time-strategy game like Command and Conquer. Storage chests are power plants needed in order to build and expand. Having more is crucial to success. Each one is +20 slots... +20 means by which to make money. Many on this thread have pointed this out - and I suspect many who have larger quarters do so for storage space above all else.

What this does is threaten that storage space, those long-term assets, those end-game goals... all over Real Life Happening to the wrong person. To me, this puts unnecessary pressure on us outside of the game, as players, to forcibly put Arelith atop other factors in our lives because our friends need to rely on us that much more. Those of us who value the RP generated by faction play take it much more to heart if a lapse hurts our friends. The mention of offering exceptions is nice - until you deny someone. Who are any of us here to say what is or is not more important than the game? Who are any of us to penalize someone for being unable to get online when, say, Texas freezes over for 7+ days (Easy to pull as it is recent), other natural disasters, hospital visits, and a bunch of other things that really is none of our business. The onus is to now put very real pressure on these situations - and hope beyond hope that our reason is satisfactory enough to the staff of Arelith. I do not mean to sound jaded about such things, but we have all had bosses or teachers or professors or 'insert here' in our lives that dismiss our pursuits and time-off requests, that see certain things as less important or not justified enough. Now we have to potentially face that here too?

The solutions offered in this thread to target the actual behavior you want to target is honestly a better option than this. This is actively turning into 'your IC reasons do not matter' when it should be 'your OOC reasons should be regulated'. Generational movement of assets from alt to alt is a problem that should be addressed. Stopping factions from passing down their assets - be it a ship, tavern, house, or manor - to their lieutenants, or members of the faith, or whatever the values of that particular faction may be - solves nothing and begs the question of whether or not that long term, focus-driven RP is really worth it to begin with.

Focusing on the problem behavior, enforcing policies against it, and expanding storage solutions, quarters, and so on is a better way to approach this. Yes, it requires work and it may never seem enough - but you are not alienating your most dedicated player base either.

My example to impart is this. Say there is a group of new players that really want a ship, but there are no current ships available. Instead of penalizing the first person who does not login a week for who knows what reason - and their first mate/crew being shafted - cause that is what that will feel like...

...instead encourage that group of new players to contact the team and seek roleplay, resource gathering, and goal setting to build their own ship. Make it so this process requires them to roleplay with others - be they crafters, local governments, what have you. Instead of beating the current playerbase with a stick and citing 'how dare you not give away your hard-earned assets' - increase the assets to those willing to put the time and effort to earn them.

This server is massive, and the influx of new players is something that is understandable to want to ensure they can see all there is to see... however... I'm sorry but... new players and new characters need to find and earn their way like everyone else. Finding a way that promotes the IC, and the effort, is the best way forward.
Last edited by ScalesofEquilibrium on Mon May 10, 2021 4:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Aradin » Mon May 10, 2021 3:54 pm

Irongron wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 3:18 pm
...the Nomad is already slated to be excluded from this system, as it is a civic building in Cordor, alongside the theatre guilds, temples, museum, guard HQ. In the above cases both eviction and release will result in immediate availability.
Sorry, my poo brain is finding it difficult to know just which properties are affected by this new rule and which ones aren't. I know you've said government buildings and such are exempted but I didn't think the Nomad would be, for example. And in the announcement you say "small quarters are unaffected" - that seems vague. I feel like I read somewhere on this thread you said properties worth less than 20,000 gold aren't affected. But when you examine a property sign you only learn the tax upkeep, not the purchase price. Unless I've played for years and years and know all the quarter prices across the server by heart, how am I supposed to know whether x quarter is or isn't affected by the new rule? Am I missing an easy way to understand how this rule applies?

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ScalesofEquilibrium
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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by ScalesofEquilibrium » Mon May 10, 2021 3:55 pm

Irongron wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 3:18 pm


Weird analogy aside (JBeamdog do not own Arelith; or anything else built by the community with the nwn engine), the Nomad is already slated to be excluded from this system, as it is a civic building in Cordor, alongside the theatre guilds, temples, museum, guard HQ. In the above cases both eviction and release will result in immediate availability
I think focusing on whether or not the analogy is absolutely factually 100% realistic does nothing to understand the point being made. The point being made is, if for whatever reason - sickness, injury, loss of interest, etc - you had to step down and hand off Arelith to someone else - is it fair that we put the entirety of NWN:EE owners in a lottery and gift it to a rando - or does it make more sense for you to hand it off to a protege?

A random RL time after a property is released is a lottery of play time and location.

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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Xarge VI » Mon May 10, 2021 3:57 pm

I know it can be somewhat frustrating, I've transferred a quarter to a character's associate many times when I've gone to a downshift in interest to play. I've done this with the best of intentions; To ensure that roleplay continues in the property rather than it becoming someone's storage chest. The change makes this hard.

But eventually I think this change brings more positive than it does negative. And the desire to see my quarter continue to matter after I'm done with it probably just stems from my own egoistic desire to control the legacy of my character.

A faction's life is not dependent on the properties or wealth it holds. A faction with strong IC foundations can easily survive the loss of all their property and a good faction leader is able to make an interesting story out of the loss whether they think the loss was fair or not.

I'd say obtaining a quarter for faction dudes to plot and scheme in is more vital in the early stages of the faction, although again not essential. (You can just pick a nice looking rock to gather around)

However it is important for the life force of our little game world that established IC foundations are tested and eventually broken. The amount of euklian clay, adamant chunks or runic materials a faction has in their storage chests or can't store anymore is at the end of the day immaterial (and a potential source of a new story) but the rise of a new, interesting faction is precious.

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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Edens_Fall » Mon May 10, 2021 3:58 pm

Irongron wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 9:38 pm
I've been looking at guildhouses some more, and arrived at the following decision. Note, this is not yet coded, and will go on update thread when ready.

So...

A guildhouse (as defined as a quarter with interior quarters), when timed out (due to owners absence) or released, will randomly select ONE of the interior quarters, and, if currently occupied, will transfer ownership of the guild to that person.

This way, an active guild won't have the rug pulled out from under them, and the best way to ensure continued ownership is to have the guildhouse fully used.
Love this idea!

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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Hobojoe » Mon May 10, 2021 4:09 pm

ScalesofEquilibrium wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 3:55 pm

I think focusing on whether or not the analogy is absolutely factually 100% realistic does nothing to understand the point being made. The point being made is, if for whatever reason - sickness, injury, loss of interest, etc - you had to step down and hand off Arelith to someone else - is it fair that we put the entirety of NWN:EE owners in a lottery and gift it to a rando - or does it make more sense for you to hand it off to a protege?

A random RL time after a property is released is a lottery of play time and location.
Right, but it often goes from protege to protege to protege...There are quarters now that have never left the same few players. Are the owners breaking the rules? no. Are they being selfish? I'd say yeah, probably.
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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Irongron » Mon May 10, 2021 4:12 pm

ScalesofEquilibrium wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 3:55 pm
Irongron wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 3:18 pm


Weird analogy aside (JBeamdog do not own Arelith; or anything else built by the community with the nwn engine), the Nomad is already slated to be excluded from this system, as it is a civic building in Cordor, alongside the theatre guilds, temples, museum, guard HQ. In the above cases both eviction and release will result in immediate availability
I think focusing on whether or not the analogy is absolutely factually 100% realistic does nothing to understand the point being made. The point being made is, if for whatever reason - sickness, injury, loss of interest, etc - you had to step down and hand off Arelith to someone else - is it fair that we put the entirety of NWN:EE owners in a lottery and gift it to a rando - or does it make more sense for you to hand it off to a protege?

A random RL time after a property is released is a lottery of play time and location.

It's hard to know where to start unpacking this. There is no comparison to be made here. Factions don't 'own' server areas by virtue of having roleplayed there, nor did they create them. They have absolutely ZERO right to determine who is, or isn't allowed to use them in future. I find that whole thinking really quite troubling.

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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by lordgaist » Mon May 10, 2021 4:18 pm

A little bit of a side bar but.. Why is the Guard Barracks even have a lease? Is a non Cordor Guard going to own it? Would be nice to just free it up and just be owned by the city. Same thing with the ship.. It does get a bit annoying always having to (mostly ooc) re arrange who is owning these things because players leave or shelf. Just not sure the value the mechanic for a situation like this brings to RP.

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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by ScalesofEquilibrium » Mon May 10, 2021 4:29 pm

Hobojoe wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 4:09 pm
ScalesofEquilibrium wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 3:55 pm

I think focusing on whether or not the analogy is absolutely factually 100% realistic does nothing to understand the point being made. The point being made is, if for whatever reason - sickness, injury, loss of interest, etc - you had to step down and hand off Arelith to someone else - is it fair that we put the entirety of NWN:EE owners in a lottery and gift it to a rando - or does it make more sense for you to hand it off to a protege?

A random RL time after a property is released is a lottery of play time and location.
Right, but it often goes from protege to protege to protege...There are quarters now that have never left the same few players. Are the owners breaking the rules? no. Are they being selfish? I'd say yeah, probably.
I would say that if a new player joins that faction and rises to be a protege, that is fine. A faction maintaining their assets for as long as that faction roleplays and interacts should be encouraged, not deemed selfish.

If there is something going on where a faction is being exclusive - only allowing certain friends to continuously make characters who join those factions to keep the assets - that can be addressed without penalizing every other faction. Expectations can be set via rules and rulings. Factions can be given guidance on what they should do to avoid selfish behaviors. From there, it is checking up on it and enforcement. A new rule can be made to produce the behaviors we all desire - distancing ourselves from the OOC behaviors we dislike, and encouraging the IC behaviors we do like.

To turn it into a lottery can destroy factions. Setbacks from IC consequences are one thing. IC Consequences from IC actions are one of the foundational aspects of RP anyhow - and I would argue anyone that values roleplay will be able to take the punches - sure, they may react differently, need a break, what have you - but that is part of the story, and they can work with it.

Setbacks from OOC consequences like a lapse of a single player logging in are not conducive to good storytelling. That does not encourage players to roll with the punches, because frankly there is no Roleplay for it. It does not make sense why Lord X lost his manor and his retainers are now left on the streets. Who are they to blame? What story shall we make that -must- have an antagonist? Do we turn on Lord X? Do we decide to blame the local government despite it being a purely OOC mechanic?

Or do we punish OOC with OOC and defriend the individual, causing strife where it really shouldn't happen? I'm not encouraging this, but from where I am sitting I can see it happen. How dare Lord X's player not take the time and investment we put into gathering those crafting materials. How dare Lord X's player leave us out to dry.

I do not want to see that last paragraph happen. I have already seen it happen before, and it never ends well. Never. In fact, I am sure a lot of people who read this have similar stories, darker points in their careers gaming on NWN. That is why I feel strongly about it - I fear the OOC repercussions are going to be stronger, and often behind closed doors where it cannot be addressed.

Lord X lost the property. Well, the retainers better stand post outside of the house to ensure no one buys the property and steals his items from him. Now we are legitimately camping the sign and there is an IC reason for it - there has to be. Our characters -must- know what can happen if there is a lapse in activity. So now we need to save the faction assets.

I may see things differently or misinterpret the outcome. But given this is a discussion I simply wish to point out what I fear the outcome may be. The selfishness argument is valid - I feel that can be addressed by the setting of expectations and the punishment of exclusion... as opposed to a system that may very well destroy and encourage further OOC behavior.

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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Irongron » Mon May 10, 2021 4:38 pm

lordgaist wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 4:18 pm
A little bit of a side bar but.. Why is the Guard Barracks even have a lease? Is a non Cordor Guard going to own it? Would be nice to just free it up and just be owned by the city. Same thing with the ship.. It does get a bit annoying always having to (mostly ooc) re arrange who is owning these things because players leave or shelf. Just not sure the value the mechanic for a situation like this brings to RP.
We could redo it all to work with the faction of the current elected leader, but that would involve revisiting a lot of quarters. The Cordor guard can access a lot of buildings, and all of those are currently scripted to work with their quarter key.

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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Irongron » Mon May 10, 2021 4:55 pm

Edens_Fall wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 3:58 pm
Irongron wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 9:38 pm
I've been looking at guildhouses some more, and arrived at the following decision. Note, this is not yet coded, and will go on update thread when ready.

So...

A guildhouse (as defined as a quarter with interior quarters), when timed out (due to owners absence) or released, will randomly select ONE of the interior quarters, and, if currently occupied, will transfer ownership of the guild to that person.

This way, an active guild won't have the rug pulled out from under them, and the best way to ensure continued ownership is to have the guildhouse fully used.
Love this idea!
This is definitely happening, but it requires I revisit and adjust all guildhouses, which is taking some time, while Mord is adjusting code. We will also be changing things so the guildhouse owners gains the gold from the sale and upkeep of interior quarters. I hope to have finished going through all the guildhouses at some point later this week (it's a lot of work)

So the takeaway is - if your faction has a guild, and fills all of the rooms with members, you won't need to worry about losing the property should the owner disappear, or be forced to release.

Really, with this, the exceptions for civic buildings in settlements, that for brokerage areas and cheap properties, I'd be really surprised if faction roleplay was RUINED by these changes. In fact, with guildhouses now actually being used, and the added weight being added to civic and brokerage buildings, it may actually be improved.

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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Red Ropes » Mon May 10, 2021 5:18 pm

Only thing I think with guildhalls that might be tweaked;

Rather than random to have a vote of property holders inside the hall to decide the leader but otherwise the whole system and a necessity for a faction to live in specific guildhalls so that bigger ones must have people.

(on that note - being able to evict people as the property holder that isn't just changing the keys would be neat too)

--

I like this system a lot.
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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Anomandaris » Mon May 10, 2021 5:28 pm

Irongron wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 4:55 pm
Edens_Fall wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 3:58 pm
Irongron wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 9:38 pm
I've been looking at guildhouses some more, and arrived at the following decision. Note, this is not yet coded, and will go on update thread when ready.

So...

A guildhouse (as defined as a quarter with interior quarters), when timed out (due to owners absence) or released, will randomly select ONE of the interior quarters, and, if currently occupied, will transfer ownership of the guild to that person.

This way, an active guild won't have the rug pulled out from under them, and the best way to ensure continued ownership is to have the guildhouse fully used.
Love this idea!
This is definitely happening, but it requires I revisit and adjust all guildhouses, which is taking some time, while Mord is adjusting code. We will also be changing things so the guildhouse owners gains the gold from the sale and upkeep of interior quarters. I hope to have finished going through all the guildhouses at some point later this week (it's a lot of work)

So the takeaway is - if your faction has a guild, and fills all of the rooms with members, you won't need to worry about losing the property should the owner disappear, or be forced to release.

Really, with this, the exceptions for civic buildings in settlements, that for brokerage areas and cheap properties, I'd be really surprised if faction roleplay was RUINED by these changes. In fact, with guildhouses now actually being used, and the added weight being added to civic and brokerage buildings, it may actually be improved.
I am one of the leaders in a fairly new faction with about 15 active people. Realistically, the chances of us getting a guild house are about zero. We’ve been lucky enough to have a couple players find nice homes that can be used as pseudo headquarters. We also have 3 shops between the 15 players that are in the faction.

We now have no way to effectively manage those properties. If someone gets busy IRL, decides they don’t want to run a shop, wants to own property on another one of their chars, find an upgrade and want to transfer their old spot to one of our newer very active members, or any number of 100 reasons, the faction loses its precious, hard to obtain assets that have been painstakingly acquired. These help generate much needed revenue for the group and offer us places to host rp events and routinely gather ad-hoc for rp. These aren’t properties we’ve been hoarding for years, but things we’re using literally every day and involving many people from outside the mechanical faction as well. But because other people have been greedy, we can’t do the most basic of functions, transfer these asset as things evolve.

This change does not destroy our faction, but it makes doing a very normal, mundane thing that is kind of required to grow a faction IC, extremely difficult. And all the while, the major properties will still not change hands often (as in rl years), guild houses will be more hoarded than ever due to their increased value now, and other factions like ours will rely on RNG instead of rp to acquire and maintain assets. I’m sorry to push back because there is a real problem you’re trying to solve here, but it’s fairly black and white that this heavily damages a faction’s ability to establish and maintain any meaningful asset footprint in accordance with invested rp. One of our properties and two of our shops were acquired through rp with the old owner and there is absolutely zero relationship between us and them ooc, just an ic connection that prompted us being in a position to get those assets through extensive relationship development. While I hate long term hoarding as much as anyone, this change is too limiting and very discouraging for anyone trying to do anything meaningful with a faction.

I’m just gonna be totally honest because people are saying it but in some roundabout ways. We will, as will most, simply be VERY careful who’s name properties go under, and will oocly ensure people take the responsibility seriously so we don’t end up losing assets in 3 months for some stupid reason. If we have to let go of a property for some arbitrary ooc reason that makes no sense IC, we will be doing our absolute best to re-acquire it by watching it though the sale phase using all of our available resources. We don’t want to pass stuff off to ooc cronies, we want to manage the assets through a evolving, dynamic member base in our faction.

If this limitation on building large factions that have great wealth and power is by design, so be it, but that’s been part of the fabric of the IC setting for a long time and a very cool dynamic (though sometimes fostering stagnation). It seems however that the nuances of why this was important in day to day faction management, for good reasons, has been overlooked.

Now the only way to actually reliably “use” a property to grow a faction is if it’s a guild house, which are some of the most scarce and limited properties on the server, many of which I’ve still never even seen the inside of on any character over 7 years.

Edit/TLDR: The issue I have is fundamentally that something which could be achieved IC, through RP means, is now relegated to RNG because of abuse. It's a philosophical choice that, if carried out over time, will remove more and more cool things because some people exploit them. It's a RP server and with great freedom/ability to impact our surrounding, comes responsibility to wield it well. This creates problems, but it's also why people show up and log in here after so many years.
Last edited by Anomandaris on Mon May 10, 2021 5:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by msterswrdsmn » Mon May 10, 2021 5:49 pm

I've personally got semi-mixed feelings about the update, but mostly i like it.

In all the time i've played Arelith, trying to find a shop or quarter was always something that would take something like 6 IRL months to accomplish. And this is having played on the server for years and knowing most of the mechanical in's-and-out's of the server.

The biggest obstacle to obtaining property were semi-or-inactive quarterlogging. The second was people buying properties and then refusing to release them unless through an auction-style sale, which usually had a -minimum- bid of half a million.

I didn't see direct transfering of property much to friends ICly unless it was soemthing like a faction leader stepping down and passing the guildhouse to another player.

So, mostly, i approve of this. The only thing that nags me a little would be areas like the Banite fortress, the Radiant heart halls, Brog, etc that are very much tied to a specific race/faction and dealing with things like leadership succession or a faction leader retiring, and theres the risk of an uninvited outsider swooping in, snatching up the property and holding it hostage. Only to have the RNG delay the actual release and start the cycle all over again.

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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by LIAR LIAR » Mon May 10, 2021 5:51 pm

It's a little weird I can't sell my rp house to my rp friend who just so happened to be looking for a nice place for weeks. It's something I do on every character. People Ive never even met before ooc just roleplay the fact they're looking for a place. I happen upon a really good opportunity to upgrade. It's always nice to then sell your place to your friend you made on this character through natural encounters.

This adds in a really artificial element to a world we do our best not to overburden with silly mechanics that are really uncomfortable to try and explain away in roleplay.

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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Irongron » Mon May 10, 2021 5:56 pm

Jordenk,

I've no doubt about the pain this causes, and that there are many players who both gained their property by RPing those they had no OOC connection, and are not hoarding them. I also can't pretend this update will not harm some of those people.

But with expensive properties no longer being passed between friends, and guildhouses actually requiring active users, I believe new groups, like yours, will find it easier in future.

Of the 1 property and 2 shops you mentioned were any priced below 20k? A large amount of shops fall below this threshold, while those above it are the very ones it is often impossible to obtain.

A faction of many members across many non guildhouse properties, shops and vaults will possibly be more impervious to losses than those crowded into a large, single, guildhouse, as they would be unlikely to lose more than a fraction of their holdings.

Still, you touched on the part of this I do find hardest to accept. There is a lot of fun to be had negotiating and rping towards an important property purchase, and it is a shame to see so much of that curtailed. Sadly, it really is the case that these are often the exception, with so many locations passed between friends, which while possibly RPed, is still very much based on nepotism. I know that so many of those reading this, even those disagreeing with this change have seen it, and done it. I know it is deeply, deeply entrenched behaviour, happening not just with players, but also staff.

It is heavy handed, it is extreme, but I am drawing a line under this. We have so many exceptions at play, and new guildhouse calculations incoming that there will still very much be a way around it, for those really determined.

Want your faction to be immune? Purchase some vaults, I'll be adding plenty more in the near future, and all are below the 20k threshold.

The main difference will be seem for those wandering players browsing the houses, wondering why so many never hit the market, and if the market is even genuine.

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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Anomandaris » Mon May 10, 2021 6:17 pm

Irongron wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 5:56 pm
Jordenk,

I've no doubt about the pain this causes, and that there are many players who both gained their property by RPing those they had no OOC connection, and are not hoarding them. I also can't pretend this update will not harm some of those people.

But with expensive properties no longer being passed between friends, and guildhouses actually requiring active users, I believe new groups, like yours, will find it easier in future.

Of the 1 property and 2 shops you mentioned were any priced below 20k? A large amount of shops fall below this threshold, while those above it are the very ones it is often impossible to obtain.

A faction of many members across many non guildhouse properties, shops and vaults will possibly be more impervious to losses than those crowded into a large, single, guildhouse, as they would be unlikely to lose more than a fraction of their holdings.

Still, you touched on the part of this I do find hardest to accept. There is a lot of fun to be had negotiating and rping towards an important property purchase, and it is a shame to see so much of that curtailed. Sadly, it really is the case that these are often the exception, with so many locations passed between friends, which while possibly RPed, is still very much based on nepotism. I know that so many of those reading this, even those disagreeing with this change have seen it, and done it. I know it is deeply, deeply entrenched behaviour, happening not just with players, but also staff.

It is heavy handed, it is extreme, but I am drawing a line under this. We have so many exceptions at play, and new guildhouse calculations incoming that there will still very much be a way around it, for those really determined.

Want your faction to be immune? Purchase some vaults, I'll be adding plenty more in the near future, and all are below the 20k threshold.

The main difference will be seem for those wandering players browsing the houses, wondering why so many never hit the market, and if the market is even genuine.
Thank you for the timely and thoughtful reply. Two of the properties were above the 20k threshold and are very and one of the shops is in a prime location. One home we amazingly procured randomly as someone lapsed their lease, the shop & other property were acquired through RP.

All in all we will make do and adapt. I do feel better knowing you both acknowledge and care that it will impinge a very fun bit of RP. At the end of the day you're stewarding the server so you get to drop the gavel on these sorts of existential, philosophical decisions. Thanks for facilitating an open discussion about it. We will see how it all plays out! :D

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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Skald Haldi » Mon May 10, 2021 9:10 pm

I now have actual personal experience with the head-aches this new rule causes:

I am a member of a fairly large faction - one of the most active on our server. We have a guildhouse that we run from. This is used for storage, but also for RP as we exchange IC messages there, and invite outsiders there for RP sessions. It's a symbol of power - a prop, yes, but an important one.

However, our leader needed to to leave the game unexpectedly due to unfortunate events in RL. Our new leader and many of those remaining are new players - we've only known each other for a few months. This is not some long-standing group of friends trading it around! It's more like the old guard are retiring and passing it on to the new blood.

We considered options:

1) Ask our prior leader to log in once every week just to keep up the property.
This is rude to him.
It's also rude to other factions wanting to talk to him.
I would think it also breaks metagame rules.

2) Try to hand it to another player by catching it when it comes up for sale:
This experience was absolutely AWFUL !!!
We knew it would be, but it was the only valid choice left.

What we had to do:
Keep the exchange completely secret to prevent outside attackers. (silly)
Active members camped the purchase sign all hours of the day whenever possible. (tedious)
Asked for help from trustworthy outsiders who knew us and trusted our reasons. (oddly, this is what worked - THANK YOU!)

End of the story - we got the property back, just as hoped. In other words, all the rule accomplished was that it caused LOTS of unnecessary stress and LOTS of wasted time and effort. Worse, it puts incredible responsibility on the new leader, because now they can't ever leave without restarting this whole process again.

I approve of the intent and purpose of the new rule - however, there are too many special situations. In fact, I imagine every group thinks that their situation is special. Worse, if we are truly supposed to be RPing our characters, then this is the natural consequence of the rules of the world they live in.

Suggestions:
1) Please reconsider how to enforce the desired intent -> there are several excellent suggestions noted above that would accomplish your goal better with no need for DM oversight.
2) You mentioned the multi-dwelling rooms defaulting to one of the inside owners. That's a great idea, but I don't know yet whether it would handle all cases well.
3) If that doesn't work, perhaps flag faction leader/owners so that they can never be the leader or owner again. That way, they always need new blood to cycle in and stay fresh.

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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Xerah » Mon May 10, 2021 9:53 pm

This is one of my favourite changes I've seen go through. I've never once paid another player for a quarter or shop and had some pretty great locations/quarters over the years. I have had some quarters gifted to me (taking over factions and such) but I'm willing to ignore the ease of that transfer for this system which seems much better. Has there been some good RP generated out of RPing quarter transfers? Sure but that is not the majority. You could also generate good RP by rule breaking PvP but that doesn't mean the rules are wrong.

I pretty much echo everything that Xarge VI has said. For example, I know when I transferred the RH guildhouse over, I really wanted to see what I built to continue the way I had run it before that but it failed pretty quickly after that. Looking back at it now, I think continuously trying to maintain the status quo is certainly both an ego thing (I made this!) and bad for the server as a whole. Newness is good. It's tough to read through posts like this and see people talking about things they're doing for a year+ and wanting it to continue on.

Your faction is more than your quarter. Your faction is more than the double 20 slot chest. Your faction is more than the 100 stack of bronze you have in the storage. There is so much stuff that is stated as a "need" when you really don't "need" any of it. I've even been skipping getting housing these days, as it's mostly unnecessary (and I keep forgetting to refresh it).

With how many people love the status quo, it's been making me wonder if I'm just not a good fit for Arelith anymore and haven't been logging on as a result (or maybe just a refresh is needed). Either way, changes like this are for the better and hopefully, they will promote some more waves across the server.
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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by MissEvelyn » Mon May 10, 2021 9:58 pm

I love this change. It gives everyone equal footing, and that's really what matters. New players who want to start a faction and have a go at making a dent in the world? They now have an equal chance to do so from a headquarters, just like the long-standing stagnant faction that owns 1/3 of all server properties.

On top of that, abuse has happened. Anyone who is on at least one Arelith-related Discord server will know that people have hoarded quarters for their OOC friends. This isn't a speculation. It happened.


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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Ork » Mon May 10, 2021 9:59 pm

I think the scenario above is exactly what this new feature is hoping to avoid. If your faction leader has to resign, the quarter is available to anyone. If you're solely using the quarter for storage, you can do that anywhere else.

Another concerning trend is correlating longevity to quality. A long lasting character is rarely quality. I know that's blunt, but the space we play in thrives on new characters telling new stories.

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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by The GrumpyCat » Mon May 10, 2021 10:32 pm

The more freedom players have with systems, the more possibility there is for abuse in one way or another.
If and when such abuses occur, and we believe that they are severe enough and prevelent enough to reguard action – we've a few things we can do.
We can kindly ask people not to.
We can make rules to stop it and try and enforce such rules.
We can introduce systems to prevent such abuses.

I'll admit I don't think we did the first thing much. The second thing however is pretty impossible for us – it's extremely difficult for DMS to discern what's a 'legit' rped transfer and what isn't, it would take a lot of legwork to manage and it would end up in a lot of accusations of favouritism.

This change has taken power and freedom away of rp from you guys. And that's rough. I think it's rough. I'll miss being able to pass quarters on when I'm done – ideally to people who I know will use them. I'll miss seeing factions organize just the right building. Some folk have pointed out already the cool rp that can come from that sort of situation and honestly? That's a shame.

But there was also the undercurrent of abuse that went around because of this freedom. People selling homes for mega gold. Auctioning homes. Buying homes just to sell on. Sharing around discord cliques for years and years and years...
And that wasn't healthy for the server over all either.

In the end with this change we've sacrificed a bit of RP freedom in return for preventing an amount of exploitation of the system that was going on. Is it for the better or worse of the server? Was it a good trade off? We'll see. I think different people will have different answers. I hope it is, but time will tell.
This too shall pass.

(I now have a DM Discord (I hope) It's DM GrumpyCat#7185 but please keep in mind I'm very busy IRL so I can't promise how quick I'll get back to you.)

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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Aradin » Mon May 10, 2021 10:40 pm

I feel like what Skald Haldi described is going to happen a lot. Even become the new norm. Why would factions/groups/individuals with time on their hands not spend time camping valuable properties going up for sale to make sure they get it? Who can blame them? If I saw a property I really wanted open up for sale, it would be extremely difficult for me as a player not to frequently log on and check it until it was sold. How many checks per day is acceptable player behaviour, you know? 5? 20? 50?

Thinking out loud here: if we really want to double down on this course of action then maybe the devs could code in a trigger to 'For Sale' signs that locks them after viewing for x hours? Let's say you check a 'For Sale' sign at 8am. That sign is now locked for your character/player account for the next 6 hours. The earliest you can interact with the sign again is at 2pm and hope it's unsold. Then at least people wouldn't sit around and camp the 'For Sale' signs, which I otherwise expect to see happening with regularity.
(I know this would also result in factions OOC coordinating to check the sign at regular intervals to maximize their odds, but again, just thinking out loud)

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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by mash » Mon May 10, 2021 10:52 pm

I am grateful to Irongron for clarifying the exceptions and the possibility to transfer guild houses via internal quarters. These seem to catch some of the worst cases I expect to happen, although I am still missing features like a small guild trading houses with a larger guild.

The most important news for me is the hints given at establishing some system to incentivize that guildhouses are actually used by active factions. I don't care about private property for a single character at all. It is nice to have, but 99 % of all quarters do not matter at all for any given character during their lifetime; they may as well not exist. The best aspect about private quarters is that they can be used to house a faction while you are looking for an actual guildhouse (which are rare and seem often too small for a large faction). Ironically, this creates a problem that will hit new factions more often than old ones: It is much more likely for a new faction that the holder of your quarters will suddenly vanish than for a faction that has been around a long time.

Personally, I would rather have a large and active faction (that I am not part of) have a premium property than a two man faction that exists for a month and quarterlogs for another, or worse have the quarters in the hand of a single individual. Why? These reasons:

1) Large and stable factions often take the time to furnish their properties beautifully, giving it a real identity and history.
2) I can visit large factions and RP with them there. That is obviously much less likely to happen with an inactive, tiny faction sitting in premium location - after all you may not even know the characters. The faction house of a large faction becomes a semi-public space open to a variety of characters; the faction house of a tiny, inactive faction or a single individual is just dead space to most of the community.

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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by In Sorrow We Trust » Mon May 10, 2021 11:45 pm

The largest crux of the issue I'd state is that quarter ownership largely comes down to RNG now. I don't consider this a positive change because RNG is both good and bad. There's also less RP created from proper ownership. Now when you release a spot, you're just freeing it into the ether to whoever ends up being at the sign at the right time, down to the second.

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