Recent Property Sales Update

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AstralUniverse
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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by AstralUniverse » Tue May 11, 2021 12:07 am

The GrumpyCat wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 1:57 pm
I should mention that the Dm team are far from blind to the concerns brought up in this. And we're definatly going to be keeping a close eye on the situaiton.

In reguards hogging -
Firstly we don't so much look at it as just a play-time based issue. Play time can come into it - people notice if someone is barely around at all for example - but we more look at roleplay. If you're logging into your second computer for five hours a day - just wriggling around your quarter but saying nothing - whilst you're basicaly afk and watching TV or playing another game - to me that's just as bad as logging in for five seconds every week to touch your quarter door.

That's not to say we expect epic novels woth of interactions every day or so. Or that we judge these things over a small time period. Everyone has busy weeks. So long as you're around some of the time, doing some roleplay you should be alright.

These things being said - the more 'fancy' the property the more we'd expect.

Own a small home in the mayfields? Probably not a big issue tbh. If it's reported we'll look into it but it's not exactly prime property.

Own a large manor house? We expect to see a little more work going into it to show you're actually around, we'd be more activly watching that.

Own a ship? Well we want you to be /using/ that ship, and using it with others. Sitting with it absent for months on end is not an option.

Own a Guildhouse - Again we want to see a reasonable amount of activity from you - and those inside. And so on.

Warnings will be given of course. And we try to only deal with these in extremes. But if you own a property - especialy a prestigious property, we expect it to be in use.
Maybe you are aware of that already, but in case you arent. It's actually other factors who decide how popular and sought after a quarter is. It is very rarely how fancy it is. It is almost always the proximity to portals/boats, proximity to bank and area with a lot of PC shops, and of course if it's outside of settlement authority.
Quarters (and shops) with a value less than 20k are excluded from the system.
I dont think this should be decided by value. It's probably the least relevant factor in what makes a quarter loop between friends for years.
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Party in the forest at midnight
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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Party in the forest at midnight » Tue May 11, 2021 3:11 am

The most highly sought after quarters I ever owned were not big or fancy. They were in romantic nooks and I got tons of letters on my door from various people wanting to buy it so they could have a romantic getaway, or to "raise a family there." A concerning number of letters. Some players tried to pressure me into selling it. It was nutty. And honestly, these are the last people I'd want to give a quarter to- I'd rather see quarters go to anyone running a group or doing something interesting, who could really make use of it.

This is why quarters get traded among familiar people. When someone gave me a special quarter, I was told, whatever I do, make sure it goes to someone who will do something with it, and not just social RP quarter hoard it for eternity. And there are a few quarters that come to mind that are like that, in a romantic nook and has been owned by the same person since I started playing the server. The concern people have is real.

I'm indifferent to the change. I'm skeptical it will just lead to even more quarter hoarding, but I don't think it'll harm anything.

While I've been given some quarters in the past, I don't really feel it's necessary for any of my RP. Most of the quarters I've owned I've randomly found, various townhouses across the server. And really, that's all I need to start a group. A place to put bookshelves and message boards. The biggest thing I look for in a house (which also is the most difficult things to find), is a non-settlement, non-planar quarter. I wish there were more areas like this, it would be great if Sibayad could have vault quarters. Or more areas like the Cricket Caves.

I think a lot of people are blowing this out of proportion. You don't need a house to run a faction. Not even for storage. Those are all bells and whistles. If it was really about storage, faction members could get small quarters, make doors faction locked, and dedicate the storage chest in each house to certain sorts of crafting materials.

Everywhere I've RPed, people go about starting factions wrong. They obsess over making a complex ranking system, making faction forums (or now, discord), guild colours, etc. But none of that really makes a faction, and all of these carefully thought out things end up dying because they neglected the most important part: The RP. Going out into the game world and being interesting. RPing with people, recruiting people, having a group that is interesting.

The only sort of thing I'd want to do behind closed doors is information trading RP or having shady connections, which I have done inside a literal shed. A lot of RP can happen out in the open. On other servers without housing, you make do with whatever you can find in public spaces. On Ravenloft, I would use any abandoned building with a door, so I could see it open/close.

I've heard people insist they absolutely cannot start a faction without a faction base that would house 15 people. I've tried making suggestions to people, but they rejected them all, having a very specific idea in mind that they *had to* have a certain kind of quarter, or else the faction wouldn't work.
Rather than obsess over things like this, I think people should just go do things. You don't need a house to RP.

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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Tue May 11, 2021 4:44 am

Another personal anecdote, and a good reason I say this is worth giving a shot while the inevitable wrinkles get ironed out.

On my first character, who was a mage with evo/enchantment/abj foci back in the day when that meant if people found out he was an enchanter it was time to bleed his soul into a basin - I wound up purchasing the weatherstone quarter.

It took me approximately three real life months; the sale price was an enchanted piece of gear (+1 Stat, +1 Stat, +1 Unisave, +2 Skill, +2 Skill, +2 Skill, +2 Skill) for which I was paid handsomely to the tune of 800,000 gold, some of it up front to fund the enchantment- and then paid something like another 200K for the actual purchase of the property.

All in all, I considered it a good deal at the time. As an epic level mage who had a unique advantage in ESF enchantment that at the time didn't have most of its current buffs and was considered underwhelming.

But is this really a fair benchmark to expect of a new player? I expect fresh off the boat players to be intimidated by such a daunting threshold to buy-in to an option that should be much more attainable, and possibly discouraged from trying at all. I was fortunate enough that by the time I actually wanted a private quarter for a character the funding was well within his achievable means, but that's an incredibly distant horizon for any fresh log-in.

In this case, the necessity for something to change outweighs the necessity to get it just right in the opening steps. I'm hoping it'll be watched carefully and adjusted as needed.

Edit: Also, AU's entire post at the top of this page has a lot of wisdom worth considering, I think.
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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Red_Wharf » Tue May 11, 2021 6:47 am

Party in the forest at midnight wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 3:11 am
The biggest thing I look for in a house (which also is the most difficult things to find), is a non-settlement, non-planar quarter. I wish there were more areas like this, it would be great if Sibayad could have vault quarters. Or more areas like the Cricket Caves.
The Cricket Caves, the Heartwood Grove and the the Half-breed Camp are examples of wilderness quarter hubs that I would love to see so much more in the server, although without the roleplaying weight from the last two, like having to be a nature-themed character or having to be a Half-orc, but I can see the merits of something like a barbarian-themed quarter hub in a mountain somewhere. Whatever it is, we can't have enough wilderness quarters.
Party in the forest at midnight wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 3:11 am
I've heard people insist they absolutely cannot start a faction without a faction base that would house 15 people. I've tried making suggestions to people, but they rejected them all, having a very specific idea in mind that they *had to* have a certain kind of quarter, or else the faction wouldn't work.
Rather than obsess over things like this, I think people should just go do things. You don't need a house to RP.
I agree wholeheartedly, but we can't deny that quarters play an important role in a faction. Would you rather play a character in a knightly order faction based in a simple townhouse or in a castle? Most of the time the answer will be the castle. From what I've seen and experienced in the server, a cool quarter is a magnet that naturally attracts players, but while important, its role is only a supporting, secondary one, because the true foundation of a faction is roleplaying.

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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Party in the forest at midnight » Tue May 11, 2021 7:20 am

I'd play a character in a knightly order out of the RH. It's a big castle, it has a really cool garden space, and an open interior space upstairs. Most of the time when I've been involved in guilds, they were mage guilds and were based out of the Arcane Tower, where we did most of our RP out in the open. I think people should try to find open spots and RP there. Imagine having a guild meeting in a tavern, that would be pretty cool.

I also do not want more themed areas. I don't count the Heartwood and Half-breed camp as non-settlement, because they're very restricted. My wizard spent a lot of time moving from place to place, some of that time was to try and find a place on the surface that he could house an outcast in. My rogue, I went around looking for a non-settlement place to run a crime syndicate out of. These aren't things that would fit into the Heartwood, Half-breed camp, Soulhaven, or anywhere themed. I was really excited when I found a broom closet free in Whidershin Edge. The quarter I spent most time RPing in was Lavok's small/medium sized quarter (I think? He never showed me around, it looked like 1 main room and a 2nd small room) that he ran a crime syndicate out of. It really does not take much space at all to run a faction.

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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Aodh Lazuli » Tue May 11, 2021 7:49 am

Irongron wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 8:10 am
Asking DMs to review every single quarter transfer, those using them, and judge whether the location is being hogged by a closed group, transferred between friends, or arranged on an OOC channel is an entirely unrealistic suggestion.
You could always assume the best from your players until they are reported for doing this, and then look at each reported case on its own merit, rather than trying to monitor everything at once.

Surely that is the better option than an ugly, inconvenient, ham-fisted catch-all mechanical solution.

Right?
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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Irongron » Tue May 11, 2021 9:39 am

Aodh Lazuli wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 7:49 am
Irongron wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 8:10 am
Asking DMs to review every single quarter transfer, those using them, and judge whether the location is being hogged by a closed group, transferred between friends, or arranged on an OOC channel is an entirely unrealistic suggestion.
You could always assume the best from your players until they are reported for doing this, and then look at each reported case on its own merit, rather than trying to monitor everything at once.

Surely that is the better option than an ugly, inconvenient, ham-fisted catch-all mechanical solution.

Right?
No.

This isn't a server rule, and to draft one, that fully covers this issue, would be confusing at best, and I'm not about to ask our players to police each other, looking over their shoulder at every quarter purchase, and even if we did? They would have no way of knowing if a quarter was being transfered between OOC groups, outside of lying their way into a friend group in order to rat them out to the DM. That would be an awful culture to encourage.

And even when reported, the work that goes into such an investigation, it's not small, and I'd rather DMs focus on other things. You only need to read up to see all those people who know, without doubt, that this happens, a lot. I think everyone must. This has nothing to do with my not 'assuming the best from our players', but rather, as I stated a few times above, a culture of patronage and nepotism that has become the norm. Just because a player has done this in the past, does not make them a bad member of the community - as I said, it was common behaviour.

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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Skibbles » Tue May 11, 2021 10:35 am

I'm really on the fence about this change, but leaning towards it likely being a net negative.

It needs to be said, of course, that the now 'old way' of doing things certainly had its shortcomings.

RNG is rarely an exciting mechanic, being only 'fair' at a glance, which is why everyone does their very best to mitigate/eliminate RNG whenever possible. You can look towards any build/mechanics discussion to see how desperate people are to escape the unpleasant horror of random chance mechanics.

Properties will be owned by the same people - those being the ones who log in the most - as it always was. Only it will be random instead of based on RP, however dubious some is sure to be, which carries with it a few tacit implications that I find... strange.

We're openly suggesting that it is better to own a property/quarter/whatever simply upon the grounds that one hasn't before, rather than due any consequences or action in game. I don't understand why this is a preference, and surely we can recognize that given enough length of time a random owner is just as likely to do nothing with a property for years as much as build immense RP out of it for years.

There is irony further in examining that a 'new player' may join an 'old faction' and immediately thereafter be viewed as a heavily entrenched player despite the organic nature in which it had fully developed in game.

I see a future just like the past: sunk cost fallacy extending quarter ownership, finger pointing at the 'haves' by the have-nots, and people OOC messaging one another 'quick the property is up you need to log in now!'

Thanos "What did it cost? Everything," memes are up ten points as a silver lining.

I'm glad that it's being rolled out by the staff as an admitted extreme measure, because it is, and because I can imagine so many incredible things, involving many dozens of players, that have happened over the years merely by the passing of a house/title to a fresh face that never will happen again strictly because organic roleplay is directly recognized as equal to simply existing in a vacuum.

The change is intended to address a very important concern, but I fear that the collateral damage may be in excess of what is attempted to be solved.

Then again I barely use discord and recognize that I am in the minority on many things so what do I know.
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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Tue May 11, 2021 1:42 pm

There's so much yikes in this thread.

When did quarters become so important? And guildhouses?

People are just angry that this is shaking up the status quo. Nothing is going to go up in flames. The server needs this dynamism enforced mechanically because players can't do it themselves.

Hate to break it to everyone - but the majority of large, pre-existing factions are not so benevolent in creating new space for new players, new factions, and new ideas. This is also not something particularly new. People get attached. People enjoy their space. People are less inclined to share. This has been a trend for over a decade.

There are many similarities between the grievances of "wandering level 30 syndrome" and "entrenched OOC-coordinated quarter hogging."

I don't think a 'lottery' is the best solution - but I think it is a good place to start from, and iterate on.
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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Subtext » Tue May 11, 2021 3:41 pm

I am honestly not sure how to feel about this update...and that's not just because I don't like it but simply because I see positives and negatives.

Preventing the ooc fueled transfer of quarters is probably a good thing, at least in the cases where certain quarters are getting hogged by factions without them seeing any actual use except additional storage space.
Likewise, largely inactive factions holding prestiguous places *are* an issue and I welcome measures taken to crack down on it.

I am just not sure at all that will really help with that issue. The idea is that everyone should have a shot at a quarter and I agree with that, but I don't think it makes much of a difference there if a quarter becomes available right away or after a random time.
On the plus side, it prevents ooc inheritance of quarters, on the downside, it actively prevents providing other players with a quarter.

Recently, I acquired a store in a fairly prestiguous location...and passed it off to someone that never got to hold their own shop despite being a very active and engaged player. This is something I could no longer do.
And that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with being well known, the same could apply to people having an interesting character concept that you want to help out with that.
Definitely not everyone would do that, no...but I've seen something like that happen often enough that it's not outlandish either. I've benefitted from that as well, especially given my fairly limited online time!

As for quarters opening after a random time...it favours extremely active players that can afford checking in on a quarter often. Those that can't still have little chances to get a quarter the regular way...but no chance anymore at all to being given a quarter by someone else. I think it makes the situation decidedly worse for more casual players that in my opinion are just as deserving of a quarter as the "pros".
Factions still benefit from that as well as they can check up on a quarter to be sold much more often than solo players. I think we'll see a shift from quarters transferring inside factions towards quarters transferring between factions.

I think a better way to address the quarter issue would be to find ways to make it less important to have one - aka increased storage capabilities. Some players have more need than others and having a way to "upgrade" citizen storage could be something. Or allowing faction storage at the bank in exchange for an upkeep that is steep enough to discourage everyone and their mother having one. I believe that way specific needs can be addressed while also rewarding people who actively play (and creating another gold sink!).
I still wouldn't fix the issue of quarter hogging but at least take some of the pressure of it.

I don't think the update is all bad...I just believe it creates new problems while adressing some older ones but in any case, it would have to be seen how it actually goes :)

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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Hedgehog » Tue May 11, 2021 7:39 pm

I’ve got an extremely negative view of this change. It effectively killed our merchant faction so we’ve dispersed onto do other things.

Many of my reasonings have already been voiced here, so I’m just going to echo those.
Last edited by Hedgehog on Tue May 11, 2021 9:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Kriegos » Tue May 11, 2021 8:11 pm

I like this. Is it perfect? Nope, but Irongron said as much himself.

It's a step toward something that's better than what currently exists. Letting things run on good faith that the players will self-police and give up quarters when they're done clearly didn't work out, so now we have a mechanical enforcement. Make no bones about it, what exists is a relatively small portion of the population gating off the majority from property they keep for the sake of convenience (see the storage issue above) or because they've had it so long and simply don't want to give a place up in case a future character will use it.

That's not good for the server health. New things are good for the server. New organizations, new stories, new influences. The new system gives new factions and new characters a crack at having some visibility, and keeping the world fresh. For those who are unhappy with it, keep being constructive with the feedback! In just this thread, it's extremely clear that the Arelith team are willing to listen and refine the solution.

Keep the thoughts constructive, and keep them coming!
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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by DangerDolphin » Tue May 11, 2021 9:05 pm

I think it's a good change for individual quarters being used as individual quarters. Ideally I would give them on a shortlist of people interested and randomly choose someone (preferring those with no quarter), so people didn't need to camp them all day. Would be much more work though.

It's a bad change for faction HQs, and also the problem is that most factions need to use individual quarters as their HQs. I think if any building is faction owned it should be on a different system, whereby it checks if they have at least X members and stays until they go below that.

For shops I think it will depend on location. If it's a prized location we will see tons of people camping the area. This has happened before when Hollow was killed in the Underdark and people camped his Hub shop for 12 hours or more. There were even PKs over who got to click the sign. See above for random/shortlist solution.

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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Hungor » Tue May 11, 2021 11:47 pm

just wondering if few extra Temp shops at favorable locations would help in this matter?

perhaps place al the temp shop in al settlements closer together? could be fun to roleplay markets and would be less boring to stand at your temp shop al day :)

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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Kaeldre » Wed May 12, 2021 1:58 am

Skibbles wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 10:35 am
We're openly suggesting that it is better to own a property/quarter/whatever simply upon the grounds that one hasn't before, rather than due any consequences or action in game. I don't understand why this is a preference, and surely we can recognize that given enough length of time a random owner is just as likely to do nothing with a property for years as much as build immense RP out of it for years.
As I have come to understand it, the way people utilized the old system made certain quarters practically unavailable for people who stood outside certain groups. This wasn't a consequence of the system in place, but how people chose to use that system. It was the result of ic and ooc action and consequence. Thus, the new system was based on chance instead. Ensuring that everyone has equal opportunity in taking quarters that are to be released.
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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Marsi » Wed May 12, 2021 8:23 am


Seven Sons of Sin wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 1:42 pm
Hate to break it to everyone - but the majority of large, pre-existing factions are not so benevolent in creating new space for new players, new factions, and new ideas. This is also not something particularly new. People get attached. People enjoy their space. People are less inclined to share. This has been a trend for over a decade.
I concur and I feel at odds with the line of thought I've noticed in this thread that regards "long-standing" or "institutional" factions as something automatically deserving of our protection and sympathy.
Party in the forest at midnight wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 3:11 am
Everywhere I've RPed, people go about starting factions wrong. They obsess over making a complex ranking system, making faction forums (or now, discord), guild colours, etc. But none of that really makes a faction, and all of these carefully thought out things end up dying because they neglected the most important part: The RP. Going out into the game world and being interesting. RPing with people, recruiting people, having a group that is interesting.
I've always been an advocate of "lean and mean" factions. Little or no structure, just a cool theme, a bunch of great individuals, and a whole lot of narrative disruption.

Maybe it was Discord or the introduction of NPC factions, but in the last couple of years I feel as if "Big Faction" has won, and that the dominant model of faction-craft has become the MMO social guild complete with all the unnecessary trappings as you describe. Such entities do not tolerate pivots in the story or threats to their collective aspirations, which makes internal tensions or espionage impossible to play out and conflict on the whole very toxic and identitarian.

Internal and external threats should scale with the age and size of a faction, and even the best should eventually implode, explode, have their founding purpose become irrelevant in a new age, or become a ship of Theseus.

If a faction can last so long that their primary existential concern is property handover going awry, or running out of storage space, something's not right.

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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by mash » Wed May 12, 2021 10:21 am

I don't think those who predict that this change will tear down long standing factions - a sentiment I can follow in part, although I don't share it - will see the results they expect.

Big factions will adapt. If they lose a property, they will move around or organize shared faction spaces with their allies. They will continuously be looking to expand and not hold back. The factions that will suffer most are:

1) New and small factions which get hurt substantially by losing their single property, and who do not have players that are well known to be reliable and not vanish suddenly.
2) Factions which elect to limit themselves, keep as much as possible ic, focus on one or two properties, instead of gobbling up whatever they can whenever they can.

In short, those ooc groups or factions that exhibit the most problematic behaviors according to this thread are the ones who are equipped best to deal with it. In fact, parts of the system incentivize an intensification of these problematic behaviors. The more ooc a faction organizes, the better its chances of profit and survival.

This is why the exceptions announced by Irongron, or possible further exceptions, are important.

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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by lakhena » Wed May 12, 2021 11:17 am

I have mixed feelings on this change.

I think quarters are really sought after more for storage than for RP, frankly, which causes people to go crazy for quarters, especially the ones with multiple chests. I recommend bumping up the citizen storage system to 20 items and this may ease some gripes. Perhaps if citizen storage could also be accessed by 1-2 others that you name or be accessible to factions, people would care less about having multiple quarters or being able to pass on quarters.

That said, I really do appreciate the RP aspect of acquiring properties and being able to pass them on to people outside your faction or OOC group of friends. There are cynics out there who believe this doesn't happen. It does.

The shop and quarters I have now are prime examples of people liking the IC ideas I presented for what I was going to do with the spaces and then gifting the quarters and shop to my PC. There was a lot of RP with several people trying to figure out how to share space with my PC that was rather interesting to consider.

This mechanical change would not allow any of that to happen and makes little sense IC. It incentivizes OOC camping by those who can idle in game and can check every once in a while to see if the quarter or shop is up for sale.

I don't play at peak hours and have long bouts of time that I don't log in. I really don't think I could have acquired my PC's shop or quarter randomly. And while you can say that maybe someone could have come in and done just as interesting stuff with the shop and quarters that my PC has ... frankly, I haven't seen anyone else do similar stuff with the new Guldorand shops that have even better layouts than mine (The Road Less Traveled).

I suppose it will depend on which properties get marked for being put into the randomized pile (the quarters inside inns, the Arcane Tower, etc) versus which ones will be Tier 1 or Tier 2 properties that we can pass down via RP and DM intervention.
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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Diegovog » Wed May 12, 2021 11:36 am

I like this change and I don't think there should be exceptions. Larger factions are not and should not be imploded only because of HQ loss as they are a huge part of the quarter hogging problem.

Marsi's post was perfect.

Perhaps with this system in place now the DM team can focus on people that only log on to refresh properties and don't rp anything for months.

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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by magistrasa » Wed May 12, 2021 12:55 pm

In my time playing in the Erudite Arcanum, the faction HQ changed hands at least 4 times, often as deed holders were drawn away from the game to focus on IRL complications. One of those transfers was urgent and sudden and unforseen. Imagine what would have happened if the Erudite Arcanum couldn't reliably turn over ownership of the Boreal Keep. The guild house is the faction. For god's sake, the guild house was literally MADE for the faction.

For some factions, I'm sure property doesn't matter nearly as much as roleplay. Losing a house might be a bummer, but the players only really need a gathering spot to hang out in and any dusty old corner would serve that purpose. Still, that's not the case for all of them.

The transfer of ownership of the Devil's Table Temple to my week-old low-level nobody drow was one of the most significant game-changers I ever experienced on Arelith. Over the course of a day, my first character on the server went from someone nobody knew to someone everyone wanted to know more about. It directly facilitated my becoming a councilor of the Table when I was only level 12. That sudden transition, all because the deed owner was going on hiatus and I was the only person around to pick up the guild house. A lot of roleplay was inspired from the fact that I had no idea what I was doing and subsequently lost ownership of the guild house twice in the span of a few weeks. The problem was always resolved quickly and entirely through roleplay. After having those kinds of memorable experiences with the game, I'm saddened by the idea that no one else will be able to experience anything like it with this change.

Something worth reiterating from that story is the fact that the quarter system is confusing to new players. Like I said, I lost that guild house twice when I got it - it was the first quarter I ever owned - for the simple fact that I happened to be walking around with all my gold in my pockets instead of my bank account while I went shopping, and I didn't really understand the way rent worked. Anyone can make that kind of mistake. The idea that such a simple mistake is going to lock you out of your house for days on end and you won't even know when to check in to get ownership back... just feels sort of cruel.

I don't like quarter hogging any more than anyone else. But I think I prefer it to a system that strips away player agency. People should be able to choose their inheritors. Instead, now we have yet another OOC contrivance we have to struggle to justify in-character, right alongside level limits on writs.

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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Kuma » Wed May 12, 2021 1:24 pm

magistrasa wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 12:55 pm
In my time playing in the Erudite Arcanum, the faction HQ changed hands at least 4 times, often as deed holders were drawn away from the game to focus on IRL complications. One of those transfers was urgent and sudden and unforseen. Imagine what would have happened if the Erudite Arcanum couldn't reliably turn over ownership of the Boreal Keep. The guild house is the faction. For god's sake, the guild house was literally MADE for the faction.

For some factions, I'm sure property doesn't matter nearly as much as roleplay. Losing a house might be a bummer, but the players only really need a gathering spot to hang out in and any dusty old corner would serve that purpose. Still, that's not the case for all of them.

The transfer of ownership of the Devil's Table Temple to my week-old low-level nobody drow was one of the most significant game-changers I ever experienced on Arelith. Over the course of a day, my first character on the server went from someone nobody knew to someone everyone wanted to know more about. It directly facilitated my becoming a councilor of the Table when I was only level 12. That sudden transition, all because the deed owner was going on hiatus and I was the only person around to pick up the guild house. A lot of roleplay was inspired from the fact that I had no idea what I was doing and subsequently lost ownership of the guild house twice in the span of a few weeks. The problem was always resolved quickly and entirely through roleplay. After having those kinds of memorable experiences with the game, I'm saddened by the idea that no one else will be able to experience anything like it with this change.

Something worth reiterating from that story is the fact that the quarter system is confusing to new players. Like I said, I lost that guild house twice when I got it - it was the first quarter I ever owned - for the simple fact that I happened to be walking around with all my gold in my pockets instead of my bank account while I went shopping, and I didn't really understand the way rent worked. Anyone can make that kind of mistake. The idea that such a simple mistake is going to lock you out of your house for days on end and you won't even know when to check in to get ownership back... just feels sort of cruel.

I don't like quarter hogging any more than anyone else. But I think I prefer it to a system that strips away player agency. People should be able to choose their inheritors. Instead, now we have yet another OOC contrivance we have to struggle to justify in-character, right alongside level limits on writs.
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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Hedgehog » Wed May 12, 2021 3:00 pm

My concern is this doesn't help the 'lean and mean' or newly established factions from being able to thrive for long at all because people outside the game have lives, and this change prevents people from being able to collaborate and maneuver in game to properly continue story threads as they concern the faction.

What this does is encourage the large and already established factions to keep their territories and further communicate OOC so they do not lose anything if anyone needs to dip for any IRL reason.

Some of these larger factions cover various timezones so they could even have and coordinate 'shifts' if they must in order to get around the RNG random element (even worse, initiating pvp, saying "Hey no, this is our property go away)."

This change helps those type of players and moreso hurts the casual and smaller factions who do not have the time or headcount to log in and quickly grab quarters if they need it at a moment's notice.

To resolve this, if you all really want to keep this change, you should up the storage vault count at citizen banks, add more citizen bank settlements (i.e - Sibayad, Whidershin, etc), and more quarters and shops so the value of holding onto these properties becomes less, softening the blow.

EDIT: Or even make vaults a bit more valuable to own? Since you're not getting living quarters persay, just make vaults more appealing by giving them 30-40 slots or add two chests instead of just the one for vaults. Just suggestions.
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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Curve » Wed May 12, 2021 3:44 pm

I don't think I have seen anyone say the point of the update was to help small factions or hurt large factions. We could say, this update does not make my pizza taste better so it is not good. But, this update was not designed to make pizza taste better. There is value in discussing the unintended side effects of the change, but still I wonder if we can agree that It is debatable if the update helps or hurts various sized factions. Reasonable arguments can be made on either side, I think.

What it seems to me the update was designed to do was to stop property nepotism. Now, it is impossible to pass along certain properties directly. That means certain styles of real estate agent rp, altruistic rp, and faction rp are changed, no arguing that. I don't find much value in those forms of rp but that does not really matter, some people do. But, unless the DEVs make camping quarters that people know are coming up for sale against the rules that is a new form of rp coming down the pipe. It is a much more naked form of nepotism, one that I would not participate but it is one that large factions will excel at, quarter sign camping with PvP as the threat. Like was done in Wharftown with voting in years past, if players can do it they will.

I think that the DEVs should make a decision now on how they are going to treat this kind of thing, and if it is within the rules or not. If there is one thing I know about Arelith players is that most players will push into the rules as hard as they can. Hell, most players across the RPR spectrum will break the rules if they think they can get away with it.

All that being said, I agree with,
Seven Sons of Sin wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 1:42 pm
Hate to break it to everyone - but the majority of large, pre-existing factions are not so benevolent in creating new space for new players, new factions, and new ideas. This is also not something particularly new. People get attached. People enjoy their space. People are less inclined to share. This has been a trend for over a decade.
and
Marsi wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 8:23 am
Maybe it was Discord or the introduction of NPC factions, but in the last couple of years I feel as if "Big Faction" has won, and that the dominant model of faction-craft has become the MMO social guild complete with all the unnecessary trappings as you describe. Such entities do not tolerate pivots in the story or threats to their collective aspirations, which makes internal tensions or espionage impossible to play out and conflict on the whole very toxic and identitarian.
I would much rather the nepotism be out in the open with large factions protecting their interests with numbers that can be interacted with rather than ooc conversations and late night exchanges of property that can not be interacted with.

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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Nitro » Wed May 12, 2021 3:56 pm

Yeah if people start using manpower to camp quarter signs, that's at least something it's possible to interact with and react to in game. And heck, a lot of people probably won't be looking very kindly towards those who turn to PvP in order to secure real estate, a fitting consequence for actions.

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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Xerah » Wed May 12, 2021 4:14 pm

I would hope that ooc quarter camping like that would be against the rules and would be dealt with by DMs.
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