Recent Property Sales Update

An area to facilitate free-form feedback on systems (in-game or out) related to Arelith.

Moderators: Forum Moderators, Active DMs, Contributors

Post Reply
ScalesofEquilibrium
Posts: 21
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2020 4:48 am

Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by ScalesofEquilibrium » Wed May 12, 2021 4:51 pm

magistrasa wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 12:55 pm
In my time playing in the Erudite Arcanum, the faction HQ changed hands at least 4 times, often as deed holders were drawn away from the game to focus on IRL complications. One of those transfers was urgent and sudden and unforseen. Imagine what would have happened if the Erudite Arcanum couldn't reliably turn over ownership of the Boreal Keep. The guild house is the faction. For god's sake, the guild house was literally MADE for the faction.

For some factions, I'm sure property doesn't matter nearly as much as roleplay. Losing a house might be a bummer, but the players only really need a gathering spot to hang out in and any dusty old corner would serve that purpose. Still, that's not the case for all of them.

The transfer of ownership of the Devil's Table Temple to my week-old low-level nobody drow was one of the most significant game-changers I ever experienced on Arelith. Over the course of a day, my first character on the server went from someone nobody knew to someone everyone wanted to know more about. It directly facilitated my becoming a councilor of the Table when I was only level 12. That sudden transition, all because the deed owner was going on hiatus and I was the only person around to pick up the guild house. A lot of roleplay was inspired from the fact that I had no idea what I was doing and subsequently lost ownership of the guild house twice in the span of a few weeks. The problem was always resolved quickly and entirely through roleplay. After having those kinds of memorable experiences with the game, I'm saddened by the idea that no one else will be able to experience anything like it with this change.

Something worth reiterating from that story is the fact that the quarter system is confusing to new players. Like I said, I lost that guild house twice when I got it - it was the first quarter I ever owned - for the simple fact that I happened to be walking around with all my gold in my pockets instead of my bank account while I went shopping, and I didn't really understand the way rent worked. Anyone can make that kind of mistake. The idea that such a simple mistake is going to lock you out of your house for days on end and you won't even know when to check in to get ownership back... just feels sort of cruel.

I don't like quarter hogging any more than anyone else. But I think I prefer it to a system that strips away player agency. People should be able to choose their inheritors. Instead, now we have yet another OOC contrivance we have to struggle to justify in-character, right alongside level limits on writs.
+1 to this.

---
On to another thing...

Now the topic of camping signs is coming up.

If this is the system, then members of that faction remaining around the sign in order to maintain their property -must- be viewed as an okay in character action. Otherwise you are asking for unrealistic expectations of IC RP. It can no longer be viewed as an OOC improper action, because the system forces the behavior in order to maintain RP.

If the inheritance of a property is going to be so OOCly dictated, then the response of the playerbase can equally be so. To then slap them in the hand for that too, is cruel. You cannot put something in place that encourages a behavior and then punish the behavior.

Xerah
Posts: 2036
Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2015 5:39 pm

Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Xerah » Wed May 12, 2021 5:01 pm

It's not. It's certainly breaking the be nice rule. It's also an extremely narrow view to claim this to be an OOC rule and due to that, OOC afking around the sign or leaving the convo box open is okay. That's just a bananas view.

One could go out and roleplay elsewhere and come back from time to time to check the sign. The script could just check if any players are within 50' and, and if so, not open it up yet.
Katernin Bersk, Chancellor of Divination; Kerri Amblecrown, Paladin of Milil; Xull'kacha Auvry'rae, Redcap Fey-pacted; Sadia yr Thuravya el Bhirax, Priestess of Umberlee; Lissa Whitehorn, Archmage of Artifice

User avatar
Skibbles
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Posts: 1285
Joined: Sun Jun 07, 2015 6:25 am

Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Skibbles » Wed May 12, 2021 5:11 pm

There's a lot of legitimate concern here and it shouldn't be dismissed as merely immediate self-interest. The update is a small change, but it symbolizes very big things including calling into question the legitimacy of all previous organic RP that is now actively against the server's new direction. There is now a firm stance, a negative referendum, on entire avenues of roleplay. Magistasa put it pretty well here.

For the first time that I know of you can, in fact, officially be 'doing it wrong.'

Those who metagame will continue to do so as they have always done since dial-up and ICQ. Discord is just a new name on an ancient problem. Directly confronting it via penalties and mechanical frustration is as fruitful as getting involved in a land war in Asia - nobody wins and a lot of unintended targets lose. Joe Solo is still losing unless he gets on the new bandwagon, since Joe can't even get property by making in game connections anymore.

Instead of passing on the direct quarter it will just be moving quarters, holding as much legitimate backup property as possible, and coordinating as many eyes as you can to scoop up any property the moment it becomes available. In other words, in the grand scheme, the intended change will not transpire. Not really.

To me it's not even about the property - it's about the message - and it is painfully simple: many cherished moments over the years, to many people, is officially illegitimate. Not only that, but it has been rendered so in the pursuit of a nebulous and impossible to quantify problem.
Irongron wrote: [...] the super-secret Arelith development roadmap is a post apocalyptic wasteland populated with competing tribes of hand-bombard wielding techno-giants, and strewn with the bones of long dead elves.

So we're very much on track.

User avatar
Aradin
Arelith Silver Supporter
Arelith Silver Supporter
Posts: 363
Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2019 10:26 pm

Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Aradin » Wed May 12, 2021 5:26 pm

I think the DMs should make some public statement of their precise stance on how they'll deal with sign camping. The new rule will absolutely cause both IG and OOC-coordinated sign camping. I think it would be naive to expect otherwise. Is it in poor taste? Probably. Against the rules? Nope - at least not right now. Official clarification on this behavior would be good to have.

Was Lloyd Grimm, Sai Aung-K'yi, Stink Spellworped, Ikarus, and Revyn the White.


ScalesofEquilibrium
Posts: 21
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2020 4:48 am

Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by ScalesofEquilibrium » Wed May 12, 2021 5:27 pm

Skibbles wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 5:11 pm
There's a lot of legitimate concern here and it shouldn't be dismissed as merely immediate self-interest. The update is a small change, but it symbolizes very big things including calling into question the legitimacy of all previous organic RP that is now actively against the server's new direction. There is now a firm stance, a negative referendum, on entire avenues of roleplay. Magistasa put it pretty well here.

For the first time that I know of you can, in fact, officially be 'doing it wrong.'

Those who metagame will continue to do so as they have always done since dial-up and ICQ. Discord is just a new name on an ancient problem. Directly confronting it via penalties and mechanical frustration is as fruitful as getting involved in a land war in Asia - nobody wins and a lot of unintended targets lose. Joe Solo is still losing unless he gets on the new bandwagon, since Joe can't even get property by making in game connections anymore.

Instead of passing on the direct quarter it will just be moving quarters, holding as much legitimate backup property as possible, and coordinating as many eyes as you can to scoop up any property the moment it becomes available. In other words, in the grand scheme, the intended change will not transpire. Not really.

To me it's not even about the property - it's about the message - and it is painfully simple: many cherished moments over the years, to many people, is officially illegitimate. Not only that, but it has been rendered so in the pursuit of a nebulous and impossible to quantify problem.
Another +1 for me.

Xeraph,

Imposing OOC limitations on IC things requires the opposite and equal reaction of OOC measures to maintain those IC things. You can call it a narrow view all you like, but that is what is going to happen - and what -should- happen. OOC begets OOC. Removing IC legitimacy means that those who continue the IC and do not take into account the OOC will be disadvantaged. If you dislike OOC behaviors, then you should ensure the systems in place do not encourage them.

Hell, the reason I am so vocal on this thread is -because- of that. I get the sense we will see a lot of OOC coordination (and rightfully so) to protect what is now a -very- precious resource. If the goal is to lessen this OOC coordination, then a rando lottery approach to the passing of properties is not how do to it.

The last Paragraph of Skibbles is what is at stake here. If, in order to maintain it, we need to be stringent OOC to work with the system - so be it. But do not pretend we are suddenly not being nice. Again, you do not get to set a framework that states that IC transfers are no longer legit, OOC lotto is the only way, and then penalize it when the people with the greatest stakes in the lotto - those wishing to maintain the cherished, built up moments in that locale - work the hardest for it. Nope. Doing both is not being nice imho. It is cruel.

The message Skibbles feels is being sent is what I feel is close to the same. Calling that narrowminded is not being nice. =)

Kessarin
Posts: 93
Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2020 3:39 pm

Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Kessarin » Wed May 12, 2021 5:30 pm

Xerah wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 5:01 pm
It's not. It's certainly breaking the be nice rule. It's also an extremely narrow view to claim this to be an OOC rule and due to that, OOC afking around the sign or leaving the convo box open is okay. That's just a bananas view.

One could go out and roleplay elsewhere and come back from time to time to check the sign. The script could just check if any players are within 50' and, and if so, not open it up yet.
Saying that someone with a differing opinion has a "bananas view" is also not in the spirit of Be Nice ("unwarranted rudeness"), and yet here we are.

The inability to transfer ownership is an OOC construct designed to thwart perceived negative behavior. There is no RP, no story, no IC reason that supports the fact that transfers can no longer occur the way they have done so. If I am incorrect in this statement, then please enlighten me and show how it is IC.

Inserting an OOC hurdle and expecting players not to use OOC in an attempt to bypass it is... certainly an interesting perspective.
Come visit the Carmichael Corner Café - located in the corner of Guldorand's town square near the Counting House and Speedy Messenger Service.

• new menu items featured every IG month!
• social opportunities - see and be seen!

Xerah
Posts: 2036
Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2015 5:39 pm

Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Xerah » Wed May 12, 2021 5:41 pm

This is next level entitlement. "These are OOC scripting requirements, and certainly not for me, so using OOC means to avoid the scripting is fine." That's the argument? Really?
Kessarin wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 5:30 pm
Saying that someone with a differing opinion has a "bananas view" is also not in the spirit of Be Nice ("unwarranted rudeness"), and yet here we are.

The inability to transfer ownership is an OOC construct designed to thwart perceived negative behavior. There is no RP, no story, no IC reason that supports the fact that transfers can no longer occur the way they have done so. If I am incorrect in this statement, then please enlighten me and show how it is IC.

Inserting an OOC hurdle and expecting players not to use OOC in an attempt to bypass it is... certainly an interesting perspective.

I can't even imagine that your view of leaving the chat window open on a quarter sign to stop people from checking it while AFK is an OKAY thing, but it's clear from your PMs in the past that you have a strange bone to pick with me.
Katernin Bersk, Chancellor of Divination; Kerri Amblecrown, Paladin of Milil; Xull'kacha Auvry'rae, Redcap Fey-pacted; Sadia yr Thuravya el Bhirax, Priestess of Umberlee; Lissa Whitehorn, Archmage of Artifice

Nitro
Posts: 2800
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 7:04 pm

Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Nitro » Wed May 12, 2021 5:50 pm

Kessarin wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 5:30 pm
Inserting an OOC hurdle and expecting players not to use OOC in an attempt to bypass it is... certainly an interesting perspective.
Yeah I guess expecting players to follow the OOC rules is a lot to ask for.

LIAR LIAR
Posts: 61
Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2020 4:52 pm

Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by LIAR LIAR » Wed May 12, 2021 6:10 pm

Xerah wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 4:14 pm
I would hope that ooc quarter camping like that would be against the rules and would be dealt with by DMs.
I would hope not. Getting a quarter has just been turned into an ordeal that I will put my every effort into succeeding at.

That's the problem with choosing to further gamify a roleplay server on what is basically an MMO. I'm forced to game. I'm literally not allowed to, by server mechanics, roleplay for a quarter. I do not get to use roleplay to get a quarter any longer. I have to beat other people at a video game now.

Kessarin
Posts: 93
Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2020 3:39 pm

Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Kessarin » Wed May 12, 2021 6:14 pm

Xerah wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 5:41 pm
This is next level entitlement. "These are OOC scripting requirements, and certainly not for me, so using OOC means to avoid the scripting is fine." That's the argument? Really?
Kessarin wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 5:30 pm
Saying that someone with a differing opinion has a "bananas view" is also not in the spirit of Be Nice ("unwarranted rudeness"), and yet here we are.

The inability to transfer ownership is an OOC construct designed to thwart perceived negative behavior. There is no RP, no story, no IC reason that supports the fact that transfers can no longer occur the way they have done so. If I am incorrect in this statement, then please enlighten me and show how it is IC.

Inserting an OOC hurdle and expecting players not to use OOC in an attempt to bypass it is... certainly an interesting perspective.

I can't even imagine that your view of leaving the chat window open on a quarter sign to stop people from checking it while AFK is an OKAY thing, but it's clear from your PMs in the past that you have a strange bone to pick with me.
It took me a while to figure out what in the world you meant.
I PMed you in mid-March to have a private discussion on the scrying changes, sent a total of two PMs, never contacted you again after you ended the exchange with, "I really do not wish to engage with you any further on this topic," and have not responded to... anything else of yours to my knowledge. It's rather odd and discomforting for you to levy such an accusation.

Expressing a different opinion is neither a personal attack against you or having a "bone to pick". Please try to stick to the topic at hand rather than theorize some personal vendetta that simply isn't there.
Come visit the Carmichael Corner Café - located in the corner of Guldorand's town square near the Counting House and Speedy Messenger Service.

• new menu items featured every IG month!
• social opportunities - see and be seen!

LIAR LIAR
Posts: 61
Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2020 4:52 pm

Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by LIAR LIAR » Wed May 12, 2021 6:21 pm

Xerah wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 5:41 pm
I can't even imagine that your view of leaving the chat window open on a quarter sign to stop people from checking it while AFK is an OKAY thing, but it's clear from your PMs in the past that you have a strange bone to pick with me.
I'm surprised this is your expectation, or even your interpretation of what the people in this thread are thinking. It's almost intentionally antagonistic seeming, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. So let me say,

No, no one is going to be doing this. But I will be playing other video games and logging in and out next to a quarter sometimes. I'll be doing routes that cover numerous quarters. I'll be more on inactive players THAN EVER for their quarters. This is a broad-spectrum, wide-sweeping change that will be COMPLETELY CHANGING how I play this "video game" in regards to quarters you're putting a narrow focus on.

Worth posting again to make sure this doesn't get missed.

ScalesofEquilibrium
Posts: 21
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2020 4:48 am

Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by ScalesofEquilibrium » Wed May 12, 2021 6:23 pm

I would respond to Xerah I do not believe it deserves the effort given either the language Xerah is using.

To respond to Nitro I think you are missing the point - and I do not mean that as a criticism.

Let us summarize.

- Your property owner in your faction gets hit by a car and is in the hospital. This is a purely OOC thing that has happened. This is real life, a major event.

Before this implementation, the player had a week to manage to hop IG, and transfer a property to another member of the faction. Problem solved. This is not metagaming. This is not disrespecting anyone outside of the faction or making things unfair. This is respecting that crap happens, and that we as players should not face penalties, anxiety, and even hatred for what happens outside of our control. Our recreation should not be penalized for outside influences.


With this implementation, there will be exemptions, sure. But we have already seen what has happened, in this thread, when that could not happen. So let us toss aside the exemptions and examine this scenario. The players in the group have to scramble to do their best to do the right thing and respect their disadvantaged faction member by making sure the property remains in the hands of the faction. This is a painful, terrifying process. All of the effort - all of the memories - all of the stored materials that were earned - can vanish. Using IC means like requesting a transfer via Governments or something is -not- allowed. Let us repeat - IC is NOT allowed. So the players are at the behest of the script. Further, whoever is going through real life is now sitting in their hospital bed with that on their mind. Not very pleasant, is it? The last thing someone needs to worry about in that situation is letting down their friends and blaming themselves.

--
The dismissive attitudes in this thread to this real possibility are lacking of empathy and understanding. Really, they are downright disrespectful to your fellow players. I imagine if this situation happened to you, and you were denied an exemption, you would feel differently.


This isn't some simple rule we are trying to skate when we argue OOC must be met with OOC. The system tells us that when a lapse occurs, it goes to who is in the right place at the right time. We are just as encouraged as everyone else to grab a ticket for the lotto.

User avatar
MissEvelyn
Arelith Silver Supporter
Arelith Silver Supporter
Posts: 1584
Joined: Sun Jul 12, 2015 8:43 pm

Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by MissEvelyn » Wed May 12, 2021 6:29 pm

Camping a sign is NOT being nice and it's most definitely an exploit and shouldn't be happening.

I imagine if it does happen, the devs will simply implement safeguards against that. One such safeguard could be that a player gets flagged when they camp a sign, so that they cannot interact with any property sign for X amount of hours.

I would happily welcome such safeguards.


Cybren
Posts: 114
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2019 11:39 pm

Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Cybren » Wed May 12, 2021 6:34 pm

What’s the line between “camping a sign” and “making it part of your routine to check every sign you see every time you log in” and which one of those behaviors is more disruptive to the function of the server

Babylon System is the Vampire
Posts: 951
Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:14 am

Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Wed May 12, 2021 6:36 pm

I keep seeing "storage is the issue" pop up in this thread, and I'm confused by that. Sure, extra storage is nice and all and if you got it you are going to find a way to use it, but the properties that are the main focus here are all about the prestige of owning them. If you own the Sea leopard, or the desert camp, people instantly know who your character is even if you do absolutely nothing, since people are always checking to see if these things are up for sale. Recruitment becomes 100 times easier, giving you even more prestige since you now have a blossoming faction if you choose to go that route, and people will listen when you say something because you are not just someone trying to climb their way up the social ranks you are the owner of the Nomad.

The thing is, this is all great. The problem in my mind comes in when someone does absolutely nothing with the property. Now, I get some of the reasons that have happened in the past. You have the best intentions, but got the property when you were starting to burn out a little. The added pressure of wanting to see your property blossom only serves to increase the burn out, causing you to log in less and less. This happened to me on my very first character on arelith who was lucky enough to get the Sea leopard for a while, but when I realized it I gave it up instead of holding on for dear life. There's also the "well, I don't have a good concept for this piece of property, but if no one takes it off retiring jack's hands its going to fall to some random so I will hold on to it for now until we find someone we can trust to own it". Yeah, you are a big part of the reason the fix being discussed in this thread is even a thing. And last but not least and certainly not all encompassing of every situation, you have the guy or gal who once had his property humming but life or something started getting in the way and now its a shell of what it once was. In this instance, the guy is more then likely thinking "I did it once, I can do it again...I just need the time in game." He's probably also thinking that if he gives the property up during this lull, he will never get something like it again when he does make his grand come back. But here's the thing about the thing. These properties are rare because people hold on to them like life depends on it. I'm under no illusion that they will become easy to get if everyone just did the right thing, but they will become easier...and people would be doing the right thing like they were part of a community instead of just looking out for number 1.

Anyways, storage is not the thing, it's the prestige. I stock pile resources for my craft until the early 20s where I bang out everything I gathered for a quick burst of gold so I can start working on runic stuff, and I've accomplished that multiple times now with bank storage only. And while this new system does nothing to deal with people sitting on properties and doing nothing with them, it does help with ooc cliques sitting on properties across multiple characters for years on end. So, yeah, it's something.

ScalesofEquilibrium
Posts: 21
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2020 4:48 am

Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by ScalesofEquilibrium » Wed May 12, 2021 6:42 pm

MissEvelyn wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 6:29 pm
Camping a sign is NOT being nice and it's most definitely an exploit and shouldn't be happening.

I imagine if it does happen, the devs will simply implement safeguards against that. One such safeguard could be that a player gets flagged when they camp a sign, so that they cannot interact with any property sign for X amount of hours.

I would happily welcome such safeguards.
Then... do not... make the only means of maintaining a property that?

If the goal here is 'hahaha your property owner lapsed, anything you do at this point to maintain the RP you have built upon is an exploit' why not make all properties temporary rentals that cannot be rented twice in a row?

Why bother to offer the carrot of building permanence if it is going to be beaten with an OOC stick?

Whisper said it best. Scripts, OOC enforcements like this, require a gamification attitude in response. Players are going to start playing the game the way it is designed to be played. If a faction has a player lapse and the DMs do not give an exemption, they must have their members check the sign repeatedly to maintain it, as they are given no other options.

Expecting them to pack up and not do so is unrealistic and frankly demeaning.

User avatar
Irongron
Server Owner/Creative Lead
Server Owner/Creative Lead
Posts: 4666
Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2014 7:13 pm

Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Irongron » Wed May 12, 2021 6:54 pm

I should probably add, that in the case of a property lapse, the new system gives you a greater chance of getting it back, not less of one.

Drogo Gyslain
Posts: 367
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2019 5:35 am

Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Drogo Gyslain » Wed May 12, 2021 8:38 pm

Irongron wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 6:54 pm
I should probably add, that in the case of a property lapse, the new system gives you a greater chance of getting it back, not less of one.
That makes no sense, unless you mean that we can be able to petition the DM staff to return property that was seized back to the owner before the 'auction' occurs.

Because by setting it to a random timer, at least beforehand when the timer ran down and maybe you have been gone a week and missed the timer by an hour, you could just step out and refresh the panel, no harm no foul. As long as Noone had bought it, you're in the clear and there's no loss.

Now, it goes to auction, and the owner is biting nails that they have to be watching for up to a week, to SEE if someone has just logged Ina ND purchased their home out from under them.

Players need to have some level of free market in a housing market. This lottery system is going to cause both chaos and misunderstandings, and the diversification of roleplay is actually going to cause a backfire in the system.

We understand, trust me, we understand as players that this system is being abused, but there are so many negatives to this new institution that, it really makes home ownership on Arelith a bad thing. There are far, far more negatives that have been expressed and concerns raised in this forum than the problems it will solve, and it's opening up new problems, new issues that are creating further headaches that were not even supposed to be within the scope of the update.

Boats have been affected, Shops affected, factions are affected... Its not a simple adjustment, this is a radical change that is causing quite a lot of animosity both IC and OOC.

There are good things that a system like this would bring, but at the cost of player freedom, player agency, and DM time and expense. Between the headaches this is going to cause, we're going to see a lot more splintering of RP, houses that were being used as faction bases be limited, and heritage broken.

Like I said before, we need a better solution. This isn't it and the complaints are only going to keep rolling in.

Why not, instead of throwing out the old system, we had a DM appointed as a housing DM who oversaw the housing transactions? Why not a more accessible Housing registry that shows how long people have owned certain properties as an extension of the ledger? Why not have even, a housing cool down, that prevents people from buying or selling a house to once every 10 days, or once per month to keep houses from just passing between person to person.

Why not, increase the maintenance costs of houses to signify an increase in value based on the lock strength and Trap DC that makes the house cost more in the long run, and would force people out for tax reasons and give Roleplay value for people to be active.

There are dozens of other ideas other than this, ham fisted Auction house system, please understand we want just as much as a loyal player base to root out those doing things improperly. Don't continue to punish the entire server because fo the actions of the few who abuse the housing market. The players who come here who invest time, and effort to make inclusive and wonderful roleplay, who build and strive to pass forward a legacy is here. Stop punishing good roleplay, punish bad Roleplayers.

ScalesofEquilibrium said it well, when talking about sign camping which I expect to be a norm. And Believe me, ANYONE who has played FFXIV knows this to be true, people will spend literal days botting signs to get specific houses.
Expecting them to pack up and not do so is unrealistic and frankly demeaning.
.

AstralUniverse
Posts: 2723
Joined: Sun Dec 15, 2019 2:54 pm

Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by AstralUniverse » Wed May 12, 2021 8:43 pm

Irongron wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 6:54 pm
I should probably add, that in the case of a property lapse, the new system gives you a greater chance of getting it back, not less of one.
To touch on that because it's interesting... if I understand this correctly..

character doesnt refresh quarter for a week and the 'lease' expires.
- before, quarter goes immediately for sale.
- now, quarter waits short random amount of time before going on for sale, making it less likely for the character to not refresh it before that. So it is just less likely to have a quarter go up for sale due to unintentional mia. instead of 1 week to refresh you now have 1 week + random short amount of time.

Is that how it works?
Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


User avatar
Irongron
Server Owner/Creative Lead
Server Owner/Creative Lead
Posts: 4666
Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2014 7:13 pm

Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Irongron » Wed May 12, 2021 8:50 pm

AstralUniverse wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 8:43 pm
Irongron wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 6:54 pm
I should probably add, that in the case of a property lapse, the new system gives you a greater chance of getting it back, not less of one.
To touch on that because it's interesting... if I understand this correctly..

character doesnt refresh quarter for a week and the 'lease' expires.
- before, quarter goes immediately for sale.
- now, quarter waits short random amount of time before going on for sale, making it less likely for the character to not refresh it before that. So it is just less likely to have a quarter go up for sale due to unintentional mia. instead of 1 week to refresh you now have 1 week + random short amount of time.

Is that how it works?
Actually I was saying easier because faction members could be caught unaware by property going for sale due to owner absence or lack of rent funds, and often before they even realised a third party would have bought it. Now, there is a period of notification, so they can arrange funds, watch quarter, and potentially rp with those also hoping to buy it.

Anomandaris
Posts: 436
Joined: Sun Oct 06, 2019 10:56 am

Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Anomandaris » Wed May 12, 2021 9:48 pm

Irongron wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 8:50 pm
AstralUniverse wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 8:43 pm
Irongron wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 6:54 pm
I should probably add, that in the case of a property lapse, the new system gives you a greater chance of getting it back, not less of one.
To touch on that because it's interesting... if I understand this correctly..

character doesnt refresh quarter for a week and the 'lease' expires.
- before, quarter goes immediately for sale.
- now, quarter waits short random amount of time before going on for sale, making it less likely for the character to not refresh it before that. So it is just less likely to have a quarter go up for sale due to unintentional mia. instead of 1 week to refresh you now have 1 week + random short amount of time.

Is that how it works?
Actually I was saying easier because faction members could be caught unaware by property going for sale due to owner absence or lack of rent funds, and often before they even realised a third party would have bought it. Now, there is a period of notification, so they can arrange funds, watch quarter, and potentially rp with those also hoping to buy it.
I think there's a lot of nuance to how this affects RP that is tough to predict, even as someone who has the level of insight that comes from running the server. That's because there's so many different perspectives and playstyles. I for one don't anticipate more, but rather less rp around property exchanges. I anticipate more animosity (IC & OOC) around property loss as it can't be recovered directly by going to the person who bought it and purchasing/trading it back in the case of a lapse (as one example). Not to mention all the stories told about engaging RP that was facilitated around a property and how that has affected their character arcs. A lot of property purchases on lapsed properties is opportunistic. You see it's up, run to the bank and sprint back before it's snagged. Someone else has already been through, often looted it, but just didn't want the property.

Here's the thing though, the lowest common denominator of this thread is "there is a problem with hoarding properties and especially between OOC communities, something needs to be done to fix that." I'm not sure anyone really disagrees on that. I think people are however proposing "better?" or "alternative" solutions to the problem, that may not have some of the adverse effects this implementation may. There is a fairly valid existential concern that imposing mechanical solutions to mitigate rule breaks, that have wide reaching effects in limiting IC agency, is a trend and a poor one. I'm not sure that a solution to this particular problem requires doing so.

I'm sure that people were solicited in coming up with this solution, but there is an incredible brain trust of people in the community that can provide input on something like this. Soliciting public input prior would not only likely reduce blowback, but frankly also help with ideation in developing perhaps a more meaningful solution that would be hard to do with more limited input. I would pose it as a challenge to the community to ideate around this with specific parameters. For example:

E.G.
-How can we maintain the ability for property to be transferred (at least in some way) p2p
-Mitigate property hoarding
-Not putting an adverse burden on DM time to oversee.

Define a set of parameters like this and you may be amazed at the ingenious ideas that can help solve the real problem, while not precipitating some of the very valid concerns folks have raised. You've got a passionate community here, tap into it. I think people being more engaged in the dialogue prior (like with the suggestions thread) in these pretty fundamental changes, would create a more positive community sentiment around them and result in overall better outcomes for all. :D

cornelius_4
Arelith Supporter
Arelith Supporter
Posts: 314
Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2015 7:38 pm

Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by cornelius_4 » Wed May 12, 2021 10:55 pm

What if premium quarters and guildhouses had a maximum lease per character. Let's say half a year for example.

If a character has owned it for half a year, he or she cannot own it again, but should it be released after 2 months, it can still be owned for the remaining 4 months, should it be reaquired.

Build in a max price the housing can be put up for sale for, specific to each one. Make a rule that this is the only mechanism intended to be used for selling it and not, say, asking for additional gold to be handed over via barter.

Reallow planned transfers.

Worried it's too generous? 4 months max per character! Maybe different lease timers per type, say 6 months for premium quarters, but only 4 months for guildhouses, as they are assumed to be able to hand it over to another member of the faction, while still continuing to own it for that faction.

Additonal restrictions in case I forgot some considerations?

This would enforce a kind of turnover and an active faction can survive a long time if they have a dependable influx of new members. Simpler quarters can be left out of harsher restrictions similar to how there is a 20k threshold for the current system.

I don't particularily need the housing that's being discussed (I just got a cheap one, but I'm more in the mindset of "499 every 3 days? Unreasonable! Time to gamble and lower the locks. 199? thats more like it!"), but it would be nice to help improve things on both sides, if it's possible.

Seven Sons of Sin
Posts: 2184
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 3:40 am

Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Thu May 13, 2021 1:28 am

I think part of the issue here is that there are more than 1 perspective of what quarters should be, and what they should be used for, in the confines of Arelith.

Like, I nearly spat out my coffee when someone here said that their faction maintained property almost purely for the sake of reputation. I think that is heinous and detrimental.

So, I think there are some perspectives here to be reconciled.

I fundamentally believe factions holding multiple properties (or a singular property for RL years) is a breach of the "Be Nice" rule. I think there are others in this thread who would also be aligned in that interpretation of Arelith's rules, and what quarters should be.

Others, I think, see absolutely no issue with either of these things.

And so, this new OOC change clearly aligns with the philosophy of trying to undermine the people who didn't see the problem- to tackle some of these crazy real estate mogul empires, trends, and OOC coordinations.

But if you don't think OOC transfer of property was a problem, you'll never reconcile. You're already off devising new absurd behaviours just to get what you want. Endorsing sign camping? Like who

has

why

like

go

tell a story. go roleplay.
Previous:
Oskarr of Procampur, Ro Irokon, Nahal Azyen, Nelehein Afsana (of Impiltur), Vencenti Medici, Nizram ali Balazdam, (Roznik) Naethandreil

User avatar
Flower Power
Posts: 493
Joined: Sat Nov 16, 2019 8:02 am

Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Flower Power » Thu May 13, 2021 2:08 am

Seven Sons of Sin wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 1:28 am

But if you don't think OOC transfer of property was a problem, you'll never reconcile. You're already off devising new absurd behaviours just to get what you want. Endorsing sign camping? Like who

has

why

like

go

tell a story. go roleplay.
This isn't a new behavior that's been invented to justify critiquing the change.

It's a behavior that already happened under the old system. I've personally both seen it happen, and been witness to it being arranged out of game in various groups' private discords. It wasn't especially common, but it also wasn't especially uncommon either.
what would fred rogers do?

Aelryn Bloodmoon
Arelith Supporter
Arelith Supporter
Posts: 2028
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2014 4:57 pm

Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Thu May 13, 2021 5:25 am

Xerah wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 5:41 pm
This is next level entitlement. "These are OOC scripting requirements, and certainly not for me, so using OOC means to avoid the scripting is fine." That's the argument? Really?
Kessarin wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 5:30 pm
Saying that someone with a differing opinion has a "bananas view" is also not in the spirit of Be Nice ("unwarranted rudeness"), and yet here we are.

The inability to transfer ownership is an OOC construct designed to thwart perceived negative behavior. There is no RP, no story, no IC reason that supports the fact that transfers can no longer occur the way they have done so. If I am incorrect in this statement, then please enlighten me and show how it is IC.

Inserting an OOC hurdle and expecting players not to use OOC in an attempt to bypass it is... certainly an interesting perspective.

I can't even imagine that your view of leaving the chat window open on a quarter sign to stop people from checking it while AFK is an OKAY thing, but it's clear from your PMs in the past that you have a strange bone to pick with me.
I believe there's a misunderstanding in this discussion.

What side A is proposing in 'camping' is not sitting afk around a sign, as I read their intentions, but of RP'ing trying to keep a location secure (I.E. in their hands) during the time when the city seizes their property and puts it up for auction at a random later date - which forgive me for taking the liberty, is the first off-hand sensible IC explanation I come up with as to why such a thing happens.

I'd argue if a group was willing to take the reputation hit (and the legal repercussions, which may include forfeiture of the property after all is said and done) that come with spilling blood publicly over a quarter and all the IC repercussions that come with it, that it should be allowed to happen, and deal with exceptions on a case-by-case basis. Or maybe they'll try to reason with potential competitors for the space, or bribe them. I dunno.

What you're proposing in side B, where a large group just goes afk around a sign for intimidation value, then that would of course be a rule-break, but where are you going to draw the line on that? What if it's a case of situation A, and a player went to the bathroom, then on their way back to the computer decided a drink and something to eat were a good idea so they could stay around and play longer? They wind up gone 20 minutes- I'd solve this with an auto-kick script for AFK of X time before resorting to the increased reports that are inevitable, personally. Obviously there's a gray area here and some things are a problem.

But we should probably try not to catastrophize on either side just yet.

It's both an IC and OOC action- IC logic must be made of OOC restrictions that affect interactive mechanics of the game. So long as there's RP behind it, calling it OOC is disingenuous- it's IC to know that 'your property' is no longer in 'your hands', and it's IC to know why, unless a city just randomly seizes everyone's property and resells it for no reason, which isn't very reassuring in the property value department. Why wouldn't you know that you have to be at the real estate office to renew your lease?
Bane's tyranny is known throughout the continent, and his is the image most seen as the face of evil.
-Faiths and Pantheons (c)2002

Post Reply