Recent Property Sales Update

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Drogo Gyslain
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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Drogo Gyslain » Sun May 09, 2021 10:19 pm

Question, that I don't know if anyone has asked. I've skimmed a bit but I don't see it.

When releasing a quarter for sale, previously if it wasn't purchased the owner could still reclaim the quarter. There are alot of reasons for this.

Is this feature retained, or once you release the quarter, does it then become free property to be sold and you can't reclaim your home?

In addition to this scenario, what's to stop anyone from releasing the quarter, and sitting on the sign, or having people sit on the sign to ensure it's sold to who they want it to go to? There are plenty of ways to circumvent the system (while annoying and time consuming) the system can still be worked around to benefit those who are determined to maintain things the way they were, and there are people who are dedicated enough to do it, I've seen it first hand.

I think that this may be a step in the right direction, but work is needed because there are alot of flaws in this new update that pose some problems.

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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by TimeAdept » Sun May 09, 2021 10:24 pm

While this post has nothing directly to do with the topic at hand, I none the less think your 100% on target. As a member of a large faction, storage is a major concern. Its a never ending problem. And even two chests dedicated to crafting does little to satisfy our need of storage. Were only about 15+ active members. I have no clue what truly huge factions are doing to solve this issue.
The same as you are but on a much bigger scale with many more chests split between characters. I don't think it's out of line to say crafting system storage needs are 90% of the storage needs on the server.

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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Aradin » Sun May 09, 2021 10:30 pm

Lolths Kisses wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 9:22 pm
Blood on my Lips wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 9:14 pm
Let's be honest. Rooms on the 2nd floor of the Nomad and Mayfield's Inn are not getting passed around between friends much. It's the bigger properties. It's also primarily done within factions. And why is that? Storage. Storage space is the real issue here. It's the same reason we see a lot of properties with largely inactive owners that are part of a faction.

Oh, storage space and factions. Let's talk about that. Not all guildhouses were created equal. Some guildhouses have only one quarter tied to them, some have two, and some have up to six. Some guildhouses have only one communal storage chest and some have more. This causes big factions to need more than one property to store all the shared resources for all of it's members.

The introduction of bags has helped a lot, but there are still a lot of things that can't go in a storage bag. Any good faction keeps a store of crafting resources plus potions, bandages, portal lenses, etc. Smithing can fill up an entire storage chest on its own because of all the different types of ingots.

We all know that storage is the main concern for most players. Some characters don't care to own a home, or don't play enough to need a home, but they are getting asked by their faction to hold a property to store communal goods. Especially if that faction couldn't obtain an actual guildhouse and they are trying to run a faction out of a 2nd floor room in the Nomad or a tiny house.

I think everyone here knows several properties that are being used primarily for storage rather than RP. Focusing on storage solutions would go long way. You can give guildhouses more storage, or make more storage bags, or maybe open up more property that is strictly storage oriented, like the bank vaults, and encourage factions to make use of those rather than hoarding prime properties for the purpose of storage.
While this post has nothing directly to do with the topic at hand, I none the less think your 100% on target. As a member of a large faction, storage is a major concern. Its a never ending problem. And even two chests dedicated to crafting does little to satisfy our need of storage. Were only about 15+ active members. I have no clue what truly huge factions are doing to solve this issue.
A preface: we're maybe getting off-topic here, but I felt like I needed to respond. New thread maybe?

This is a topic I've thought a lot about since joining Arelith a few years ago. It's one of the (many) ways it differs from modern MMO games, or most multiplayer games in general. On those other games, housing and storage are two separate things. Furthermore, neither of them are in such great demand as they are on Arelith. Whether it's through infinite procedurally-generated homes, massive storage vaults/player inventories/etc. it's never really a problem. The ability to have a place to call your own and to store as many things as you need to is usually considered a fundamental part of the game design. It's a given that players get those things.
Arelith is different. Here, both storage and quarters are by design a luxury. Irongron and the devs have decided we get limited storage and limited quarter accessibility. I think the dissonance happens when us players expect storage and quarters as necessities, but instead are told they are luxuries.

I can't speak for Irongron or the creative direction of the server, but to me the notion behind this idea seems to be to reduce the wealth gap. The way to wealth on Arelith (and in real life too!) is through resources. Some of these are intangible, like a network of people, and some are mechanical, like storage and quarters. The more resources Arelith gives us to play with the bigger that wealth gap becomes, because there will always be players who game very casually and there will always be players who grind and gather and hoard to the max. But if you reduce how much one can grind and gather and hoard, you reduce the wealth & power gap. The new player has less to achieve before joining the others at the top. If Johnny Grindcore can only store 100 adamantine ingots instead of 1,000, then Sally Newplayer has to spend 10x less time grinding before she and Johnny are at a similar level of wealth (really simplified example, don't crucify me).

When I look at statements like "As a member of a large faction, storage is a major concern. It's a never ending problem. And even two chests dedicated to crafting does little to satisfy our need of storage. We're only about 15+ active members. I have no clue what truly huge factions are doing to solve this issue." I get it! I totally get where you're coming from, and it makes sense. My current character is a merchant, I feel the storage challenge. But I think you're looking at a luxury and expecting a necessity.
You don't need more storage. You want more storage, because it's convenient. I say the same to anyone complaining about lack of quarters. You don't need more quarters. You want more quarters because it's nice to have a place to call your own. You can run a 50+ person faction out of a tin shed, and you can run a business empire out of a single chest (and if you can't, then maybe that's what Irongron wants - for things not to get too big and for each player to set their sights smaller.). But boy is it nicer and more convenient and more fun and better to have a guildhouse or a mansion or 100 storage slots. It's just not something you can expect on Arelith. We have to accept that on Arelith these things are luxuries, and that no player can expect them as a given. Irongron has chosen for storage and quarters to be luxuries, so anything that relies on having lots of either is a luxury too - for better or for worse.

Either on our own or with a faction or any kind of group, it's fun to have things flowing. It's fun to grow, and be successful, and increase our holdings. But it's not fun to have our expansion suddenly stopped by these artificial limits. It's not fun to suddenly get our production capabilities stonewalled because our chests are full but we have more to store but we literally can't get any more storage.

And yet...

Is that a bad thing? Is it healthier for the server overall to put artificial ceilings on how much power and wealth you can obtain? We already do it with the level cap, with the bank cap, with the 1 quarter and 1 shop/person cap. Is it worth it to stymy the growth and quality-of-life of our established characters so that new characters can have a comparably easier time catching up, closing the wealth/power gap, and achieving their goals? Or is it more worth it to not aggravate the playerbase, to allow them to maximize their fun and turn these luxuries into necessities? Does it stifle the creativity and the fun of the players when these draconian mechanical limits exist? I honestly don't know. I see arguments for both sides.

My two cents.

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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Irongron » Sun May 09, 2021 10:56 pm

We have increased storage, hugely, over the last years.

- settlement storage
- bags
- carry weight increase
- stack limits (this is the most important one)

The suggestion that we separate storage from quarters I've rejected in the past, and laid out my views as to why. It is something I'm entirely convinced on.

Instanced infinite storage is also something i really do not wish to see happen, It would permanently tank the economy.

Interestingly, a returning player contacted me last year, one that ran a thriving merchant/trade organization before the above changes, and had considerable insight as a result. He believed the increase in stack sizes, and the faction hoarding that resulted, had effectively ruined the trade economy. So long as factions could sit on 1000 ingots, they had no need to hire resource collectors, or trade with PC merchants for anything other than rare gear. In short - he believed we had already taken increased storage way too far, and made a very convincing case.

Still, as noted above, storage is another topic. The argument that OOC groups horde property for storage might have some merit when it comes to guildhouses, but for regular houses, shops and ships I do not believe it is the driving factor.

The above poster is spot on though, I actively design Arelith to ensure demand outstrips supply for both quarters and storage, not just for the economy, but for the setting. I want resources to have value, to be fought over, to feel like achievements. If we gave every player a simple way to have all their desires met with ease, I really do think Arelith would become a very different game.

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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by The GrumpyCat » Sun May 09, 2021 11:07 pm

Drogo Gyslain wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 10:19 pm
Question, that I don't know if anyone has asked. I've skimmed a bit but I don't see it.

When releasing a quarter for sale, previously if it wasn't purchased the owner could still reclaim the quarter. There are alot of reasons for this.

Is this feature retained, or once you release the quarter, does it then become free property to be sold and you can't reclaim your home?

In addition to this scenario, what's to stop anyone from releasing the quarter, and sitting on the sign, or having people sit on the sign to ensure it's sold to who they want it to go to? There are plenty of ways to circumvent the system (while annoying and time consuming) the system can still be worked around to benefit those who are determined to maintain things the way they were, and there are people who are dedicated enough to do it, I've seen it first hand.

I think that this may be a step in the right direction, but work is needed because there are alot of flaws in this new update that pose some problems.
As I understand it, once it's up for sale it's up for sale. I may be incorrect however.

As for your scenario - that's a concern of ours too. We'll be keeping a careful eye on things. AT one point we were discussing making the 'random' period up to a week - to prevent this. This didn't go though in the end, but if we do see a lot of 'sign camping' we may look at elongating the time.
This too shall pass.

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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Drogo Gyslain » Sun May 09, 2021 11:58 pm

The GrumpyCat wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 11:07 pm
As for your scenario - that's a concern of ours too. We'll be keeping a careful eye on things. AT one point we were discussing making the 'random' period up to a week - to prevent this. This didn't go though in the end, but if we do see a lot of 'sign camping' we may look at elongating the time.
That is exactly the answer we don't need to be hearing. When we're talking about the world at whole, now we're talking about a system that's punishing players as a whole who want the space because of a problem with the system and how it's designed to work.

Elongating the time? Making it so that people can't use the space at all? Up to a week?

That's going to hurt people who want the spaces who follow the rules, and it's just going to make it so that the spaces are unused for a long period of time. If anything, it's going to cause a lot of discomfort and chaos because instead of people roleplaying in the spaces, what are we supposed to do, wait for 5 days until someone else just snipes the property? You're going to be seeing a lot of properties that just sit vacant, unused... And instead of people wanting to buy them, people are going to be doing everything in their power not to lose properties. By artificially siezing control of demand, and extending out the supply to an unknown date... I'm sorry but for an RP world, this is not the direction we should be going in.

I really think this is being over engineered to solve a player base problem by instituting a lot of new additional rules and mechanics instead of handling the base issue, and there should be more attention going into educating the players and policing the problem, not engineering a new mechanic that is going to punish those who are here following the rules and enjoying their player spaces.

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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Woper_The_Black » Mon May 10, 2021 4:16 am

It's happened with a great many things Drogo. Because of a minority doing the wrong thing, lots of changes are instituted to change everybody's experience. Knockdown - lets change that it's being exploited. Disarm - lets change that it's being exploited. HIPS - lets change that it's being exploited. Eventually everybody will be running around with cardboard shields and wooden swords or a wand of magic missiles because players have found ways of gaming all the mechanics set out for the server. I've only been playing for a few years but there is no place like arelith in it's complexity and customisation, crafting, spells, monsters and detail to the overall ambience of the world. It's truly mind boggling. I just makes me a little sad when I see all these continuous changes made that seem to dull that down.

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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Blood on my Lips » Mon May 10, 2021 5:15 am

Drogo Gyslain wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 11:58 pm

I really think this is being over engineered to solve a player base problem by instituting a lot of new additional rules and mechanics instead of handling the base issue, and there should be more attention going into educating the players and policing the problem, not engineering a new mechanic that is going to punish those who are here following the rules and enjoying their player spaces.
I agree completely. This seems to be the current trend on how to handle problems rather than cracking down on the actual offenders, and frankly, it's not good for the server as a whole.

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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Mon May 10, 2021 5:21 am

Lolths Kisses wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 9:22 pm
Blood on my Lips wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 9:14 pm
Let's be honest. Rooms on the 2nd floor of the Nomad and Mayfield's Inn are not getting passed around between friends much. It's the bigger properties. It's also primarily done within factions. And why is that? Storage. Storage space is the real issue here. It's the same reason we see a lot of properties with largely inactive owners that are part of a faction.

Oh, storage space and factions. Let's talk about that. Not all guildhouses were created equal. Some guildhouses have only one quarter tied to them, some have two, and some have up to six. Some guildhouses have only one communal storage chest and some have more. This causes big factions to need more than one property to store all the shared resources for all of it's members.

The introduction of bags has helped a lot, but there are still a lot of things that can't go in a storage bag. Any good faction keeps a store of crafting resources plus potions, bandages, portal lenses, etc. Smithing can fill up an entire storage chest on its own because of all the different types of ingots.

We all know that storage is the main concern for most players. Some characters don't care to own a home, or don't play enough to need a home, but they are getting asked by their faction to hold a property to store communal goods. Especially if that faction couldn't obtain an actual guildhouse and they are trying to run a faction out of a 2nd floor room in the Nomad or a tiny house.

I think everyone here knows several properties that are being used primarily for storage rather than RP. Focusing on storage solutions would go long way. You can give guildhouses more storage, or make more storage bags, or maybe open up more property that is strictly storage oriented, like the bank vaults, and encourage factions to make use of those rather than hoarding prime properties for the purpose of storage.
While this post has nothing directly to do with the topic at hand, I none the less think your 100% on target. As a member of a large faction, storage is a major concern. Its a never ending problem. And even two chests dedicated to crafting does little to satisfy our need of storage. Were only about 15+ active members. I have no clue what truly huge factions are doing to solve this issue.
This is spot on. My experience in the upper echelons of a 30+ player guard faction, which was just a subset of the entire Cordorian government system at work, included a not infrequent number of a frantic series of messages about needing someone who didn't have a quarter to take ownership of the headquarters - or the ship, although that wasn't a storage issue, it was a military capability issue. The headquarters wasn't usually a problem, although at least once someone had to sell their quarter to take ownership, and just take up residence inside the barracks.

This isn't to brush aside the increased storage options. But the truth is there are very few storage solutions large enough for a group of 30+ players who make a concentrated effort to plow into the resource and crafting system available on the server, which is naturally going to cause factions to span out across multiple properties to absorb more storage space. This in turn squeezes out the smaller player groups and individuals that might try to take a secondary property, because the gold availability in the upper echelons of factions that large almost always include enough resources to fund said purchase /and/ pay a wage plus the rent to maintain that property for the faction for all the property-holders.

I, too, appreciate the intention behind this change, because I think my story is a perfect example of multiple reasons the intention is spot on- but I think what you're going to see is the larger factions hitting a sudden frenzy of activity during their cooldown timer, bypassing the intention entirely. It's definitely a wait and see game, and I applaud the effort- but I think the only measure that's truly going to solve what you're trying to solve, is to create a hard line in the sand that no one really wants to create.

After X Time, a faction/owner must vacate a guildhall/quarter, with Y exceptions.

Don't ask me to fill in X or Y. I'm not touching that equation with a ten-foot compass.
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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by ReverentBlade » Mon May 10, 2021 5:51 am

Irongron wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 10:56 pm
I want resources to have value, to be fought over, to feel like achievements.
You've literally just removed the ability to fight over quarters by making it an aspect of random chance rather than connections. Your actions are not aligning with your aims.

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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Nitro » Mon May 10, 2021 6:07 am

ReverentBlade wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 5:51 am
Irongron wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 10:56 pm
I want resources to have value, to be fought over, to feel like achievements.
You've literally just removed the ability to fight over quarters by making it an aspect of random chance rather than connections. Your actions are not aligning with your aims.
I disagree. The playing field has been leveled where you don't need to be in a discord group to even be on the entry floor for more sought after quarters. Just look at boats, the ones in Crow's nest that are decoupled from settlements that can strip their ownership have been in the same OOC cliques for years on end now.

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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by ReverentBlade » Mon May 10, 2021 7:18 am

Sounds like a case for Be Nice enforcement to me.

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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Irongron » Mon May 10, 2021 8:10 am

Asking DMs to review every single quarter transfer, those using them, and judge whether the location is being hogged by a closed group, transferred between friends, or arranged on an OOC channel is an entirely unrealistic suggestion.

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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Nobs » Mon May 10, 2021 12:46 pm

This is a good update BUT it does screw up sailers up.

Logged out after standing about 20-30 min infront of one that was 'soon' to be for sale again.

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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by The GrumpyCat » Mon May 10, 2021 1:00 pm

Nobs wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 12:46 pm
This is a good update BUT it does screw up sailers up.

Logged out after standing about 20-30 min infront of one that was 'soon' to be for sale again.
If it was a temp ship then yeah - that's an issue we need to fix. This change should not be effecting temporary properties.
This too shall pass.

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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Drogo Gyslain » Mon May 10, 2021 1:47 pm

Irongron wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 8:10 am
Asking DMs to review every single quarter transfer, those using them, and judge whether the location is being hogged by a closed group, transferred between friends, or arranged on an OOC channel is an entirely unrealistic suggestion.
Then we need a solution that comes in between a blind auction system that removes player agency from being able to sell and transfer ownership through a blind auction, and the abuse we are seeing now.

Backdoor deals and value traded through OOC means are not going away, you can try and rule-monger it away all you want and people are still going to try and find ways to either abuse the system or subvert it.

Housing is integral, and placing them behind a wall and disallowing transfers between players without DM approval is going to be time consuming for you, frustrating for us, and now we have an engineered system that blinds the sale process, and based on what I've seen so far in responses to earlier questions, is irreversible once started, even if by accident.

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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Ork » Mon May 10, 2021 2:12 pm

Server resources like quarters are not within the umbrella of player agency. I don't understand what is difficult about this change other than players who wish to maintain a vice-grip on properties being told too bad so sad.

It's hard to enforce quarters and server resources being routinely shuffled in a faction. I know I've done it and I've seen people I respect do it. It was originally part of the design, now that design has changed and adapt to the new paradigm.
Last edited by Ork on Mon May 10, 2021 2:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Curve » Mon May 10, 2021 2:14 pm

Drogo Gyslain wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 1:47 pm
Backdoor deals and value traded through OOC means are not going away, you can try and rule-monger it away all you want and people are still going to try and find ways to either abuse the system or subvert it.
This sounds like you are saying 'people are going to bend, break, and abuse any system so trying to do anything is dumb'. This general argument is often used when people just don't like a change, or an update. I think it waters down valid criticisms.
Drogo Gyslain wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 1:47 pm
Housing is integral, and placing them behind a wall and disallowing transfers between players without DM approval is going to be time consuming for you, frustrating for us
Housing was behind a wall before this update, but it was a wall maintained by ooc clicks who held properties for literal years.

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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Drogo Gyslain » Mon May 10, 2021 2:39 pm

Curve wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 2:14 pm
Drogo Gyslain wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 1:47 pm
Backdoor deals and value traded through OOC means are not going away, you can try and rule-monger it away all you want and people are still going to try and find ways to either abuse the system or subvert it.
This sounds like you are saying 'people are going to bend, break, and abuse any system so trying to do anything is dumb'. This general argument is often used when people just don't like a change, or an update. I think it waters down valid criticisms.
Drogo Gyslain wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 1:47 pm
Housing is integral, and placing them behind a wall and disallowing transfers between players without DM approval is going to be time consuming for you, frustrating for us
Housing was behind a wall before this update, but it was a wall maintained by ooc clicks who held properties for literal years.
You say it's a general argument and waters down legit critisim and that is not the case.

It's a known fact, that whenever you lead or run any kind of organization or group, there will be people who break the rules and expand beyond them, it's why there are rules in the first place.

But when you're talking about replacing human interaction and decision with an automated system? It very much is a valid criticism because once you identify that people are actively attempting to abuse and defraud a system, who do you punish? The entire player base, or the people doing the actions you don't agree with.

Removing EVERYONE the ability to securely trade and secure property in a randomized system or forcing a DM interaction to exchange property seems like a pretty sizable overshot of the problem that ignores the very present black market of OOC trading that has erupted.

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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Griefmaker » Mon May 10, 2021 2:48 pm

I love this update and hope it shifts over to another key Arelith resource as well: Shops.

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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Kessarin » Mon May 10, 2021 2:56 pm

Recently, the PC owner of Cordor's Nomad held interviews to select the next person to transfer ownership, because said owner wanted someone she felt would bring the place to life. There was so much RP generated from this process, because other PCs were talking about it, saying that they would endorse X applicant over Y applicant, and then everyone discussed the aftermath of when Y applicant was chosen. Some of the applicants met to discuss collaborative plans, or a lack thereof. The whole process was like a mini-election, almost, and it quite fun to see that initial drop in the RP waters create so many ripples.

Such a thing wouldn't be able to happen under the new system, and that stymies RP on what is touted to be a RP server. I'm reminded of a quote by American author Margaret Wheatley: "The things we fear most in organizations - fluctuations, disturbances, imbalances - are the primary sources of creativity."

While I recognize the good intentions of this system, it is not a good system to implement. The massive amount of RP that factions generate because they worked hard, invested time and energy, and did things in the spirit of collaborative RP should not be disregarded so that someone brand-new to the server can achieve Day One what it took the faction players months, years, to achieve. They had to start at the bottom, too, and build their way to their success. And now they're penalized for it? And could lose everything to someone who hasn't invested near as much time or contributed near as much to the server? That will lead to more OOC resentment and far more toxicity than the present system. Where is the incentive to strive for 30 or 40 RPR if your best efforts could be lost? Don't take your long-term players and their investment into this world for granted.

A purely hypothetical analogy: Irongron has been working on Arelith for years now. (A long term faction.) He's built it into a tour de force, but none of this truly belongs to him, because the source game rights belong to someone else. (The property is leased.) What if Beamdog suddenly decides that it's not fair that Irongron has built this comprehensive world of Arelith, because there are newer module creators who want to build stuff, too? And what if, when Irongron eventually wants to focus on other things, instead of getting to choose to hand over Arelith to someone he knows and trusts to keep it alive, Beamdog says... nope, Arelith's going to some random person who is lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time? (This current system.)
Would anyone support that outcome? I know I wouldn't.

Since everything else is automated and recorded, develop a system so that targeted properties are flagged for DM review if they do not have 1) X amount of unique PC touches to the main door, and 2) Y amount of spoken lines taking place within the property by X/3 PCs over the course of Z time. Make people use it or lose it; if they're getting IG only to game the system, then at least make them work for it through RP.

And don't slap the whole of the playerbase in response to the actions of a select few.
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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Drogo Gyslain » Mon May 10, 2021 3:00 pm

Kessarin wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 2:56 pm
A purely hypothetical analogy: Irongron has been working on Arelith for years now. (A long term faction.) He's built it into a tour de force, but none of this truly belongs to him, because the source game rights belong to someone else. (The property is leased.) What if Beamdog suddenly decides that it's not fair that Irongron has built this comprehensive world of Arelith, because there are newer module creators who want to build stuff, too? And what if, when Irongron eventually wants to focus on other things, instead of getting to choose to hand over Arelith to someone he knows and trusts to keep it alive, Beamdog says... nope, Arelith's going to some random person who is lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time? (This current system.)
Would anyone support that outcome? I know I wouldn't
This is actually a very, very good analogy.

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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Curve » Mon May 10, 2021 3:17 pm

Kessarin, I'll pose a question.

What if we have a faction, we will call it Faction X. Faction X works hard to get rich, they work hard to promote positive roleplay, they do all the things right. They eventually get a big fancy Guildhouse and between them four shops. They make loads of gold and have all the high end items they could ever need. Let's say that they play these characters faithfully for a year and the members become good friends ooc. After a year they, one by one, start to loose interest in their characters, gain interest in other characters. These new characters intermingle with other ooc friend's old, rich characters who they like. The old, rich characters find well rp'd cause to transfer large potions of wealth and property to the new characters. In three months these new characters are running a very big faction, Faction Z. Faction X works hard to get rich, they work hard to promote positive roleplay, they do all the things right. And the cycle continues.

Let's say that all the things done were within the past rules. They were roleplayed for a reasonable amount of time. Does that make it right that the players behind Faction X and Faction Z get to hold all the cool properties with all the soft and hard power that comes along with it?

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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Irongron » Mon May 10, 2021 3:18 pm

Kessarin wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 2:56 pm
Recently, the PC owner of Cordor's Nomad held interviews to select the next person to transfer ownership, because said owner wanted someone she felt would bring the place to life. There was so much RP generated from this process, because other PCs were talking about it, saying that they would endorse X applicant over Y applicant, and then everyone discussed the aftermath of when Y applicant was chosen. Some of the applicants met to discuss collaborative plans, or a lack thereof. The whole process was like a mini-election, almost, and it quite fun to see that initial drop in the RP waters create so many ripples.

Such a thing wouldn't be able to happen under the new system, and that stymies RP on what is touted to be a RP server. I'm reminded of a quote by American author Margaret Wheatley: "The things we fear most in organizations - fluctuations, disturbances, imbalances - are the primary sources of creativity."

While I recognize the good intentions of this system, it is not a good system to implement. The massive amount of RP that factions generate because they worked hard, invested time and energy, and did things in the spirit of collaborative RP should not be disregarded so that someone brand-new to the server can achieve Day One what it took the faction players months, years, to achieve. They had to start at the bottom, too, and build their way to their success. And now they're penalized for it? And could lose everything to someone who hasn't invested near as much time or contributed near as much to the server? That will lead to more OOC resentment and far more toxicity than the present system. Where is the incentive to strive for 30 or 40 RPR if your best efforts could be lost? Don't take your long-term players and their investment into this world for granted.
Weird analogy aside (JBeamdog do not own Arelith; or anything else built by the community with the nwn engine), the Nomad is already slated to be excluded from this system, as it is a civic building in Cordor, alongside the theatre guilds, temples, museum, guard HQ. In the above cases both eviction and release will result in immediate availability

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Re: Recent Property Sales Update

Post by Ebonstar » Mon May 10, 2021 3:29 pm

Curve wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 3:17 pm
Kessarin, I'll pose a question.

What if we have a faction, we will call it Faction X. Faction X works hard to get rich, they work hard to promote positive roleplay, they do all the things right. They eventually get a big fancy Guildhouse and between them four shops. They make loads of gold and have all the high end items they could ever need. Let's say that they play these characters faithfully for a year and the members become good friends ooc. After a year they, one by one, start to loose interest in their characters, gain interest in other characters. These new characters intermingle with other ooc friend's old, rich characters who they like. The old, rich characters find well rp'd cause to transfer large potions of wealth and property to the new characters. In three months these new characters are running a very big faction, Faction Z. Faction X works hard to get rich, they work hard to promote positive roleplay, they do all the things right. And the cycle continues.

Let's say that all the things done were within the past rules. They were roleplayed for a reasonable amount of time. Does that make it right that the players behind Faction X and Faction Z get to hold all the cool properties with all the soft and hard power that comes along with it?
imo that transfer and such is borderline muling as its obvious that its all done with ooc behind the scenes. be glad im never on any teams
Yes I can sign

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