Re: Recent Property Sales Update
Posted: Sun May 09, 2021 5:39 am
I mean if a settlement government wants to they can just say "anyone except for [person] who buys [property] is getting evicted".
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That's exactly my concern, and I've already personally witnessed three instances of people who were going to sell/give away property now unable and unwilling to.Might-N-Magic wrote: ↑Sun May 09, 2021 7:05 amDon't care for it. Doesn't actually fix any actual problems.
Actually creates a real problem which will decrease turnover. Before if you wanted a property, you could simply save up a good amount of money and make an offer to buy the place. The owner might say yes. Maybe they want to improve their gear or have some millions on hand to try rolling for that dream character they wanted.
Now that isn't even an opportunity, ensuring less turnover and a tool for both sides of the transaction is no longer possible. The house/shop just stays where it is and no opportunity is had.
You've created a problem and solved none.
What you really want to do to solve the problem is just require people to play X amount of hours a week to keep said properties. You do that and all of a sudden about half the properties owned by sasquatches in the game would open up for active players overnight.
The update was meant to address the millionaires club properity trading and passing along/giving places, now everyone is on equal footing paying the same amount as designated by the team. If they play still then theres no issue at hand, if they're simply quarterhogging then they can be reported to the DM team and dealt with that way.Might-N-Magic wrote: ↑Sun May 09, 2021 7:05 amDon't care for it. Doesn't actually fix any actual problems.
Actually creates a real problem which will decrease turnover. Before if you wanted a property, you could simply save up a good amount of money and make an offer to buy the place. The owner might say yes. Maybe they want to improve their gear or have some millions on hand to try rolling for that dream character they wanted.
Now that isn't even an opportunity, ensuring less turnover and a tool for both sides of the transaction is no longer possible. The house/shop just stays where it is and no opportunity is had.
You've created a problem and solved none.
What you really want to do to solve the problem is just require people to play X amount of hours a week to keep said properties. You do that and all of a sudden about half the properties owned by sasquatches in the game would open up for active players overnight.
I sympathise, and this was my first thought too. However, I think a faction that deserves to have multiple generations will not have troubling getting permission from a DM to arrange a manual handover.LichBait wrote: ↑Sun May 09, 2021 3:30 amLegitimate turning over of faction assets through strictly RP means to a more junior member of a still thriving faction is now null. It may hinder/hamper multi-generational factions and dilute the possibility of longer standing institutions. (Which may be the goal, but I think some long standing institutions can be healthy provided they're actually interacting with the server/world around them.)
Lack of control over city property for a government to grant incentive loyal citizens, or a lack of way for an incumbent to build a voter base by promise of installing /new/ institutions. Which kind of runs counter intuitive to the property turnover desire this change was attempting.
Strong agree. I hate all the NPC houses. This isn't Baldurs Gate, it's a massively multiplayer game, and we are awash with areas and spaces that exist for no reason other than to give context to some NPC.Inordinate wrote: ↑Sat May 08, 2021 11:44 pmAside from that Hrothgar is 10000% right here. Scarcity causes the problem to begin with. You don't need an entire city launch to add new quarters, I can see unused doorways all over many areas that can have player quarters/guild halls added, let alone adding newer areas connected to existing that expands that purpose. It doesn't even need to be huge numbers of them or all at once. 'muh immershun' can take a backseat to a church or large building getting abruptly expanded to have new quarters/guildhalls because the benefits far outweight that brief break.
Just to respond to a few things raIsed here.Marsi wrote: ↑Sun May 09, 2021 10:29 am
Strong agree. I hate all the NPC houses. This isn't Baldurs Gate, it's a massively multiplayer game, and we are awash with areas and spaces that exist for no reason other than to give context to some NPC.
I'd like to see more guildhouses added over houses imo. I don't think it's really that important that every character gets an epic crib, but guildhouse stock has been awful as long as I've been playing. Your choices are often between tiny or ridiculously spacious, and between so overtly thematic that the space doesn't make sense for anyone besides a very narrow list of concepts, or Original Campaign tier dull. Almost always you've got to deal with awkward tileset perma-fixtures, and really thoughtless floorplans.
This is my main concern with the system.LichBait wrote: ↑Sun May 09, 2021 3:30 amLegitimate turning over of faction assets through strictly RP means to a more junior member of a still thriving faction is now null. It may hinder/hamper multi-generational factions and dilute the possibility of longer standing institutions. (Which may be the goal, but I think some long standing institutions can be healthy provided they're actually interacting with the server/world around them.)
For a time, sure, but this isn't a question of whether the resident faction isn't rping, or doing a great job, many do. But there is a huge opportunity cost to those that never get the chance. Some of these locations are uniquely themed/placed and 'adding more' is not an option (I don't want a line of 10 desert camps).Kuma wrote: ↑Sun May 09, 2021 10:58 amThis is my main concern with the system.LichBait wrote: ↑Sun May 09, 2021 3:30 amLegitimate turning over of faction assets through strictly RP means to a more junior member of a still thriving faction is now null. It may hinder/hamper multi-generational factions and dilute the possibility of longer standing institutions. (Which may be the goal, but I think some long standing institutions can be healthy provided they're actually interacting with the server/world around them.)
Regarding "x hours per week", if it also impacts small quarters (say, rooms at the Eagle or such), I feel it would make casual play impossible too. Some players play like 2x2 or 4 hours a week (4 to 8 hour total depending on free time), still use their quarter for intended purposes (storage, a place to allow for correspondence thru letters while unable to play, somewhere to start/finish the RP session).Baseili wrote: ↑Sun May 09, 2021 10:01 amThe update was meant to address the millionaires club properity trading and passing along/giving places, now everyone is on equal footing paying the same amount as designated by the team. If they play still then theres no issue at hand, if they're simply quarterhogging then they can be reported to the DM team and dealt with that way.Might-N-Magic wrote: ↑Sun May 09, 2021 7:05 amDon't care for it. Doesn't actually fix any actual problems.
Actually creates a real problem which will decrease turnover. Before if you wanted a property, you could simply save up a good amount of money and make an offer to buy the place. The owner might say yes. Maybe they want to improve their gear or have some millions on hand to try rolling for that dream character they wanted.
Now that isn't even an opportunity, ensuring less turnover and a tool for both sides of the transaction is no longer possible. The house/shop just stays where it is and no opportunity is had.
You've created a problem and solved none.
What you really want to do to solve the problem is just require people to play X amount of hours a week to keep said properties. You do that and all of a sudden about half the properties owned by sasquatches in the game would open up for active players overnight.
Attaching a timer with too high a bar would kick out those who only play for a short amount of time, yet are active within it. Too low and you're adding a minor inconvenience at best.
I would say its solved both problems rather effectively, though some tweaks and exceptions will probably be needed as they're found.
Quarters (and shops) with a value less than 20k are excluded from the system.LovelyLightningWitch wrote: ↑Sun May 09, 2021 11:43 amRegarding "x hours per week", if it also impacts small quarters (say, rooms at the Eagle or such), I feel it would make casual play impossible too. Some players play like 2x2 or 4 hours a week (4 to 8 hour total depending on free time), still use their quarter for intended purposes (storage, a place to allow for correspondence thru letters while unable to play, somewhere to start/finish the RP session).Baseili wrote: ↑Sun May 09, 2021 10:01 amThe update was meant to address the millionaires club properity trading and passing along/giving places, now everyone is on equal footing paying the same amount as designated by the team. If they play still then theres no issue at hand, if they're simply quarterhogging then they can be reported to the DM team and dealt with that way.Might-N-Magic wrote: ↑Sun May 09, 2021 7:05 amDon't care for it. Doesn't actually fix any actual problems.
Actually creates a real problem which will decrease turnover. Before if you wanted a property, you could simply save up a good amount of money and make an offer to buy the place. The owner might say yes. Maybe they want to improve their gear or have some millions on hand to try rolling for that dream character they wanted.
Now that isn't even an opportunity, ensuring less turnover and a tool for both sides of the transaction is no longer possible. The house/shop just stays where it is and no opportunity is had.
You've created a problem and solved none.
What you really want to do to solve the problem is just require people to play X amount of hours a week to keep said properties. You do that and all of a sudden about half the properties owned by sasquatches in the game would open up for active players overnight.
Attaching a timer with too high a bar would kick out those who only play for a short amount of time, yet are active within it. Too low and you're adding a minor inconvenience at best.
I would say its solved both problems rather effectively, though some tweaks and exceptions will probably be needed as they're found.
I hear what you are saying, but you already do this on some level with certain races and prestige classes. You want to make sure the player knows what they are playing before letting them play it. I don't see how that's any different then wanting to make sure they are actually going to use a guild house for something interesting, and I don't think there are many calls of favoritism coming from the sub races and prestige classes under its current system. I'm under no illusion that your dm team is a perfect group of angels that always do the right thing, I've been around long enough now to have seen some stuff. I just think that any mechanical system like the one you put in place here will eventually get to the point where the folks in large ooc cliques will learn how to game it, and I think there are enough stalwarts of fairness on your team at least currently where everyone with a good idea would get a go over time if this was the route you chose.Irongron wrote: ↑Sat May 08, 2021 10:03 pmI wouldn't want it to be by application, as even with the best will in the world a degree of bias is almost unavoidable, and even if DMs could be unbiased, many players would not see it that way. It is the same issue I'd have with asking DMs to adjudicate on which transfers were and were not valid.Babylon System is the Vampire wrote: ↑Sat May 08, 2021 9:57 pmIf my choices are "greatest change ever" or "deeply concerning" I fall in the greatest change ever column. I don't think its perfect or even as good as it could be, but its a step in the right direction. Personally I would move guild houses into the "app for" category with the caveat being if you are accepted you are expected to give it up if your faction starts to slow down drastically (without acceptable reason) or it becomes a bit of a joke after loosing time after time. Expectations could range from a great starting idea for a group to a faction built in game, and you could add and remove guild houses as you need. There is no mechanical means that will secure absolute fairness with these things, and while the human condition is flawed I think doing it through your dms is the best chance to make it as fair as possible.
As for regular property, I like the small break but I would shoot to try and set up a lotto system tied to the sale. So a property goes up for sale, it stays on sale for a week. Everyone who wants it and finds it says I will pay the cost of the apartment, and gives the gold. The system randomly chooses a winner. Now I said shoot for, because really I would have to call an old friend and convince him to script it for me if its even possible, but you got a good crew
You make a series of good arguments in your post. That said, I dont think roleplay and legacy will be cause for exception. I'll refer to someone who said it better than I ever will:
Curve wrote: ↑Sun May 09, 2021 2:56 pmThe thing is the system is not, to my understanding of what ig has said, only trying to handle rp-less transfers. What is being said is that most everyone sees their transfers as legitimate with plenty of rp, and still it is too much of it going on. Just because you have rp’d a lot or are in a faction with the person you are transferring a fancy quarter/guildhouse/ship/shop with does not mean this rp trumps all the other players on the server getting a chance to use the cool thing for a while.
It was said above that if players were not hoarding so much then this update would not have been needed. But it is needed. And it’s not just terrible players that caused the need. It is good players, who rp and who contribute to the overall narrative experience in a positive way.
Instead of coming up with reasons why we should be excluded from this new rule we should take a hard look in the mirror and ask how we contributed to it’s necessity. Don’t feel targeted by it. Your rp is just as meaningful, there are just new rules to work with.
While this post has nothing directly to do with the topic at hand, I none the less think your 100% on target. As a member of a large faction, storage is a major concern. Its a never ending problem. And even two chests dedicated to crafting does little to satisfy our need of storage. Were only about 15+ active members. I have no clue what truly huge factions are doing to solve this issue.Blood on my Lips wrote: ↑Sun May 09, 2021 9:14 pmLet's be honest. Rooms on the 2nd floor of the Nomad and Mayfield's Inn are not getting passed around between friends much. It's the bigger properties. It's also primarily done within factions. And why is that? Storage. Storage space is the real issue here. It's the same reason we see a lot of properties with largely inactive owners that are part of a faction.
Oh, storage space and factions. Let's talk about that. Not all guildhouses were created equal. Some guildhouses have only one quarter tied to them, some have two, and some have up to six. Some guildhouses have only one communal storage chest and some have more. This causes big factions to need more than one property to store all the shared resources for all of it's members.
The introduction of bags has helped a lot, but there are still a lot of things that can't go in a storage bag. Any good faction keeps a store of crafting resources plus potions, bandages, portal lenses, etc. Smithing can fill up an entire storage chest on its own because of all the different types of ingots.
We all know that storage is the main concern for most players. Some characters don't care to own a home, or don't play enough to need a home, but they are getting asked by their faction to hold a property to store communal goods. Especially if that faction couldn't obtain an actual guildhouse and they are trying to run a faction out of a 2nd floor room in the Nomad or a tiny house.
I think everyone here knows several properties that are being used primarily for storage rather than RP. Focusing on storage solutions would go long way. You can give guildhouses more storage, or make more storage bags, or maybe open up more property that is strictly storage oriented, like the bank vaults, and encourage factions to make use of those rather than hoarding prime properties for the purpose of storage.