Item Enchantment Ideas and Feedback

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Irongron
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Item Enchantment Ideas and Feedback

Post by Irongron » Thu May 20, 2021 2:41 pm

So, another thing I've noticed from playing is that while we have this excellent and in depth system for dwea...deem...ENCHANTMENT, with various tiers, runes and the like, we have a really lackluster range of actual options to place on items.

I have some thoughts, such as adding low level spells, removing uni saves in favour of all 3, and certain feats. It's obviously a tricky area to balance, but right now I feel there is very little room creativity.

Any thoughts or suggestions?

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Re: Item Enchantment Ideas and Feedback

Post by Tyrantos » Thu May 20, 2021 2:46 pm

Would be cool if we could lower saves on things as well, to create "Cursed" items perhaps. I mean it would be cool to be able to create a cursed item, or a stronger item with heavier drawbacks. Though I do not know how the system is coded, so I am unsure if this is possible.

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Re: Item Enchantment Ideas and Feedback

Post by Nitro » Thu May 20, 2021 2:52 pm

Being able to create items with bound "X per day" spellcasts would be very cool for artificer type characters.

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Re: Item Enchantment Ideas and Feedback

Post by Drowboy » Thu May 20, 2021 3:00 pm

Unless spells stop being binary "losing this save wrecks you" type stuff, unisaves should stay. Per day spellcasts and a broader range of "stuff" would be nice, like slots to add in this or that stuff to a certain amount.

But, like, that basically comes down to "what spells are cool as per day items," really, since NWN itself is lacking in item properties.

Edit: Monster abilities
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Re: Item Enchantment Ideas and Feedback

Post by Edens_Fall » Thu May 20, 2021 3:33 pm

I would like to be able to add a spell with uses per day to an item.

Cursed items sounds rather nice as well. Such as the ability to add a negative modifier in order to increase enchantment success. That would allow for a strong item to be created while also offering the balance of negative stats to counter it for example.

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Re: Item Enchantment Ideas and Feedback

Post by CNS » Thu May 20, 2021 3:38 pm

Things that are cheap and would help low level characters would be nice and way less of a headache to balance - particularly around things that are currently avaliable but might be hard to find when you're constrained to a small area with shops that may or may not have what you need.

Thinking about things like:
Ghostly Visage
The weaker version of Barkskin (3AC)
Mage Armor (CL 3 to not gut the trade in Shadow Conjuration Potions)


Perhaps a few of the restricted (ie cant be cast on an enchanted weapon) lower class weapon damage buffs too and Magic Vestments cast at a low enough CL that it wont get in the way of actual player economy trade.

Basically stuff thats close to usless at the high end but makes life easier when a low level character can scrap up a few hundred gold and get something 'ok for a while' out of the basin.

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Re: Item Enchantment Ideas and Feedback

Post by garrbear758 » Thu May 20, 2021 3:54 pm

Ooh this was what I wanted to do for my next big project after the skill rework, but since I’m taking a break I’ll just write y’all a novel here when I get off work.
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Re: Item Enchantment Ideas and Feedback

Post by Nekonecro » Thu May 20, 2021 4:05 pm

Drowboy wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 3:00 pm
Unless spells stop being binary "losing this save wrecks you" type stuff, unisaves should stay.
Very much agree with this. While it may seem boring it enables builds with lower saves to still be able to compete giving more interesting variety in the long run.

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Re: Item Enchantment Ideas and Feedback

Post by DangerDolphin » Thu May 20, 2021 4:09 pm

Spells per day might be good as long as they're not too high circle and don't count towards the enchantment cost. If they did people would forgo them in place of hard stats and just use consumables and items they swap in only to cast with.

Most likely the result of this will be though, everyone has an inventory of rings that they swap in to cast all their spells. This will be pretty tedious to micromanage, and at that point they may as well be on a non-equippable item like the ioun stones are. It will also badly hurt the wand and potion market, which is good for mundanes but bad for crafters.

Personally I don't think removing unisaves will magically make enchanted items non-bland. I would rather see crafted thematic and iconic DnD items like Elven Cloaks, Boots of Escaping, RIng of Invisibility etc in inventories.

Enchanting also heavily promotes gearset meta, where people have their helmet of lockpicking, boots of lockpicking, bikini of lockpicking etc they swap in for dealing with chests. Repeat again for disable trap, search, lore and all the other skills.

Feats are interesting but I recall many being removed (Like Ring of the Ram) in the past, so I expect there's major implications there and limits on which ones can be added.

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Re: Item Enchantment Ideas and Feedback

Post by stoneheart- » Thu May 20, 2021 4:17 pm

Enchantment might not be BING BING! WAHOO! EXCITEMENT! but it is incredibly useful. Essential, even. Finding a t3 dweomercrafter/enchanter who knows what they're doing is like finding a unicorn.

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Re: Item Enchantment Ideas and Feedback

Post by Dreams » Thu May 20, 2021 4:19 pm

I want to be able to enchant a cursed item where when it is worn by a character, it places some sort of foul curse upon them for however long. Could be done simply with a script using similar penalties as our death penalty system.

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Re: Item Enchantment Ideas and Feedback

Post by Drogo Gyslain » Thu May 20, 2021 4:57 pm

I'm really liking the cursed item ideas, giving items negative penalties and ability traits.

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Re: Item Enchantment Ideas and Feedback

Post by Curve » Thu May 20, 2021 5:04 pm

Neat idea. I'd be careful with giving curses/negatives bonuses to enchantment percentage or the ability to break through current 5% rates. Things like allowing a monk with perfect self the ability to wear items with negative will save that has zero cost but allows them to ramp up their other saves.

As to feedback on the current system. I think items are too strong, honestly. I think we replaced the artifact system with a system that allows every character to achieve crazy numbers with almost no sacrifice. I don't know how to change that without a nuke like the UMD/Lore change. It may be a situation like writs where I think it would be best for the server to remove them, but the cost to moral make it too costly a change.
Last edited by Curve on Thu May 20, 2021 5:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Item Enchantment Ideas and Feedback

Post by xanrael » Thu May 20, 2021 5:07 pm

One thing I've wish existed in infiltration RP is a -con enchant to artificially lower HP in the party list so people don't meta your level from that. Pretending to be someone new to the area and you're invited to a party for some reason either means you have to refuse or they suddenly get a "flash if inspiration" when they see a large HP pool.

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Re: Item Enchantment Ideas and Feedback

Post by Scurvy Cur » Thu May 20, 2021 5:52 pm

Irongron wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 2:41 pm
So, another thing I've noticed from playing is that while we have this excellent and in depth system for dwea...deem...ENCHANTMENT, with various tiers, runes and the like, we have a really lackluster range of actual options to place on items.

I have some thoughts, such as adding low level spells, removing uni saves in favour of all 3, and certain feats. It's obviously a tricky area to balance, but right now I feel there is very little room creativity.

Any thoughts or suggestions?
I'd like to touch base very quickly here on the bolded point.

We already have all three saving throw options, and they've all got a use, because each item is limited in the total gold value that can be added and because the runic property calculation treats each differently.

I'll provide a quick and dirty breakdown.

Unisave

For use if all your saves need a little help and you have the space to fit a relatively expensive enchantment on your gear.

Unisaves are very nearly as expensive as a +1 attribute enchantment, and take up a roughly equivalent part of your budgetable gear space. Moreover, they also count towards item property limits for runes.

As a practical matter, selecting unisave means there's 1 point of attribute enchantment that you're forfeiting. For a lot of classes that only need 1 good attribute + con, this is a popular option, but it's impractical for classes that need con +2 or con +3 attributes.

Specific Saves

+1 enchantments to a specific save are only marginally more expensive than a +2 skill bonus and they do not count towards rune total. For example, if you have a ring with 1 strength, 1 universal salve, 2 discipline, and 2 spellcraft, it requires a masterwork rune if you want to guarantee success on a 5th enchantment. If you have a ring with 1 strength, 1 will save, 2 discipline, and 2 spellcraft, only a greater rune is needed. Furthermore, if you enchant 1 strength, 1 constitution, 1 will save, 2 discipline, and 2 spellcraft on the ring, you can add a 6th enchantment with the masterwork rune.

A lot of builds will have one egregiously bad saving throw. Think the swashbuckler who has good fortitude, decent reflex (between high dexterity and a couple extra points from the grace ability), but will never ever have good will saves. This character probably wants to gear dexterity, constitution, intelligence, and even strength for an added bit of damage and discipline. This is where the specific save enchantments shine. They can make a ring that has 2 attribute, 1 point of will save, and 2 discipline, then use a relatively inexpensive rune for a third attribute point. Later on, if trying to push the limits of what gear the character has, the basins can be used to make a 5% success rate item with 3 attributes, 1 point of will save, 2 discipline, and then use a masterwork tier rune for a fourth attribute.

This approach is also highly useful to classes that care about 3 stats and 2 skills, since stat/stat/skill/skill gear requires the same rune as stat/stat/specific save/skill/skill gear. My current character uses this setup in many slots, since he has one save that is miles weaker than the others, benefits from three attributes, and wants both discipline and lore gear. In this case, the use of a specific saving throw enchantment does him very nearly as much good as a universal save bonus, but does not prevent enchanting a third stat with T3 runes.

I'll toss some more feedback at the rest of this as time allows, but the unisave/specific save point is a quick and easy one to cover, so thought to handle it now.


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Re: Item Enchantment Ideas and Feedback

Post by MissEvelyn » Thu May 20, 2021 6:10 pm

xanrael wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 5:07 pm
One thing I've wish existed in infiltration RP is a -con enchant to artificially lower HP in the party list so people don't meta your level from that. Pretending to be someone new to the area and you're invited to a party for some reason either means you have to refuse or they suddenly get a "flash if inspiration" when they see a large HP pool.
I've in the past suggested the visual of that be changed from hard numbers to percentages. I'm not sure how difficult that is to pull off though, but if I remember correctly, my suggestion got approved.

EDIT: Indeed, here it is.


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Re: Item Enchantment Ideas and Feedback

Post by Diegovog » Thu May 20, 2021 6:16 pm

Please don't remove uni saves. Only unbalanced aspect currently imo is for a specific build; elemental immunity stacking to 55% positive immunity on vampires.

I'd like to see +2 specific saves available (+2 fort,+2will,+2ref). Often characters have strengths and weaknesses and you'll want to focus on balancing them out.

50% weight reduction and it being much much easier to apply

Higher SR options

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Re: Item Enchantment Ideas and Feedback

Post by Morgy » Thu May 20, 2021 6:29 pm

Diegovog wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 6:16 pm
Please don't remove uni saves. Only unbalanced aspect currently imo is for a specific build; elemental immunity stacking to 55% positive immunity on vampires.

I'd like to see +2 specific saves available (+2 fort,+2will,+2ref). Often characters have strengths and weaknesses and you'll want to focus on balancing them out.
Agreed.

Keep Unisaves or increase specific saves to +2. If we remove decent save dweomering, it just puts the div-dip builds another step above the rest.

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Re: Item Enchantment Ideas and Feedback

Post by Ordo.Lupus » Thu May 20, 2021 6:38 pm

Saves
You can already add fort/will/reflex or unisave or specific vs death/fear/cookiemonster. Which is kind of a mix between very specific or very generic saving throws. I would simplify it a bit and only give the choice between fort/will/reflex but allow for adding more than one. Perhaps even let a tier 3 add +2 save instead of +1 but only once. So +1 fort, +1 reflex, +2 will would be max. But if you want this you also sacrifice "slots" on the item.

Attributes
+1 is nice and the possibility to add multiple stats is great. Again I would let a tier 3 guru be able to add one +2 stat.

Runes
If i understand the system correctly there's a limit to how much you can add before a hard 5%. I wouldn't mind seen the use of multiple runes. E.g. after adding the third enchantment (two +2 skill, +1 stat) you have a 68% chance of succes of adding another +2 skill. When applying a lesser rune you "ignore" 1x of the lowest enchantments resulting in a 84% since the percentage is now calculated as one +2 skill and one +1 stat. This way you could more than one (lesser?) rune if the total cost of the item allows it.
We might as well acknowledge that there's gear meta and runes and hard/soft 5% is a part of it. So I would add more rune slots on gear but increase cost of dweomer accordingly.

Special abilities
Not sure this would be possible but an idea just struck me. A rope or lasso have special abilities climb or capture. Could a whip be enchanted with such? Could a whip have a ability to 'entangle' a target? Could a weapon have special ability to 'damage' the targets weapon with the hope of rendering it useless? (would require that durability = 0 doesn't break the weapon such that the owner can hope to repair it again)

Or what about kinda silly stuff like 'boots of non-thirsty travel', 'sash of the awake' etc. Hunger/Thirst/Sleep are "minor" mechanics but still something to consider. In a pnp campagin I could see these objects still have some uses.

Feats
Sneak attack? Alertness? Dodge?
There are a bunch of feats that players might benefit from without those feats or combos being too overpowered. Adding Alertness can be compared to adding +2 spot, +2 listen.

Spells
Multiple people probably mentioned this. Though I would add some kind of UMD/Lore requirement if higher circle spells are allowed. You want to enchant the spell 'Heal' on your ring? -> Well you better have UMD 5 then (or something)

Extra damage type
Could be a nice cookie to add slash/pierce/blunt but limit to one and only if weapon doesn't have it already.
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Re: Item Enchantment Ideas and Feedback

Post by Good Character » Thu May 20, 2021 6:41 pm

Mind you I am just throwing these out willy nilly.

Enchantment Suggestions
  • +2 on minor, specific saves like mentioned above.
  • Cooldown reduction properties for specific class-related abilities (these should cost a significant amount and should likely not be stackable even if different abilities)
  • Negative stats in-exchange for strong abilities/stats.
  • Access to stat-enhancing feats.
  • Slot-specific/only bonuses that either offer higher saves and/or specific feats (i.e. Skill Focus for Ride on boots, Skill Focus for Discipline on the Chest slot, etc).
  • Permitting a single save-based Epic Feat (e.g. Epic Prowess) or Luck of Heroes on the amulet slot (or whatever slot everyone is likely to use such as boots or the belt).



I would love to see a hidden dweomercrafting basin that offers a small selection of really powerful abilities, such as the cooldown reduction property or a strong "X-per day" use, that is always a hard 5% and costs a silly large amount.

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Re: Item Enchantment Ideas and Feedback

Post by Anomandaris » Thu May 20, 2021 7:12 pm

I think it'd be great to add some more flavorful options and creativity to dweomercrafting. I will say, I'd be warry of "removing" or fundamentally changing "what is possible" to enchant as it would necessitate wiping all enchanted items that have achieved that level of power or having a gross imbalance due to those things existing. Removing any of the common present options (+2 skills, +1 ability score +1 uni's etc) or changing the power cap would be a huge upheaval in balance.

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Re: Item Enchantment Ideas and Feedback

Post by Ork » Thu May 20, 2021 7:46 pm

Truthfully, if I was going to suggest any change to enchanting it would be around ease of access. Currently the enchanting system is time consuming and carpal tunnel inducing. Any way to streamline and reduce the amount of clicks for enchanting would be a huge improvement on the system.

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Re: Item Enchantment Ideas and Feedback

Post by Opustus » Thu May 20, 2021 7:49 pm

Agreed Ork!
I'd see it massively streamlined from the chance and value based system. Just a rough draft to explain:

Properties divided into Greater and Lesser
-Greater includes e.g. ability +1 and uni saves +1
-Lesser includes e.g. +2 skill and +1 save

Tier0 enchanting allows:
1 greater property OR 2 lessers

Tier1 allows:
1 greater AND 2 lessers

Tier2 allows:
2 greaters AND 3 lessers

Tier3 allows:
3 greaters OR 2 greaters AND 4 lessers

I would also like it if it were possible to remove item properties, allowing players to adjust their items rather than starting to enchant a new one from scratch. The offenders to this in the loot matrix could be restricted.
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Re: Item Enchantment Ideas and Feedback

Post by Lexx » Thu May 20, 2021 8:38 pm

Expanding utility options and the scope of what can be made without necessarily increasing power creep is what I'd advocate most for.

Spells/day for a mix of non save/effect spells would be amazing and give options for mundanes. Also enchanting if you broaden the build appeal that benefits from basin options also acts as a necessary and very valuable moneysink. It should be a thing that promises diminishing returns and longer odds the more powerful an item you seek to make. Whilst feeling rewarding doing so.

Expanding the system further will help this immensely as well as broaden crafting options for dweomer makers. Making it easier for basic access whilst more challenging at the most complex dweomer designs whilst having a little higher ceiling for what is possible would be my personal preference.

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Re: Item Enchantment Ideas and Feedback

Post by Edens_Fall » Fri May 21, 2021 12:07 am

Diegovog wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 6:16 pm
Only unbalanced aspect currently imo is for a specific build; elemental immunity stacking to 55% positive immunity on vampires.
I wouldn't necessarily call it unbalanced when you consider the cost to do such and that any healer cleric can do more damage with a single spell (with no easy counter) then any empowered harm spell could (which was easy to counter with a single potion).

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